Taste difference between Nottingham and Safale 05

Hi

If one brews an eight gallon batch of beer and splits it in half, then pitches Nottingham to one carboy and Safale 05 to the other, what kind of taste results could one expect?

(Fermentation conditions are the same.)

Notty should throw more esters than S-05, depending of course on the temperature at which the ferment will be conducted. Notty, when fermented cool, throws relatively few esters. So if you ferment them both at 75F, you should expect more esters from the Notty than if you fermented them both at 65F. Fermented cool, I expect you'll have two very similar beers.

Bob

Bob said:

Notty should throw more esters than S-05, depending of course on the temperature at which the ferment will be conducted. Notty, when fermented cool, throws relatively few esters. So if you ferment them both at 75F, you should expect more esters from the Notty than if you fermented them both at 65F. Fermented cool, I expect you'll have two very similar beers.

Bob

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So if I fermented one of the batches at 75F and the other at 65F I would expect to have more off flavors in the 75F than the 65F although there may be a hint of esters in the 65F. Make sense?

It's not necessarily a given that 75F will give "off flavors". "Estery" doesn't equate with "off flavors".

S-05, being a derivative of clean (meaning not estery) American ale yeast, is often seen as leaving little in the way of yeast character. Nottingham, being a derivative of often estery (fruity) English ale strains, is more likely to have an estery character.

Experience has shown, however, than when fermented at the lower end of its temperature range Nottingham ferments with little in the way of fruity esters. Indeed, it is touted as "neutral" - Danstar tells us Nottingham "produces low concentrations of fruity and estery aromas and has been described as neutral for ale yeast, allowing the full natural flavor of malt & hops to develop."*

S-05 "produces well balanced beers with low diacetyl and a very clean, crisp end palate."**

75F is outside the upper end of Nottingham's optimum range. 75F is listed as the extreme upper end of S-05's range. No matter which strain is chosen, at this temperature excessive ester generation is pretty much guaranteed.

I suggest you choose a mid-range temperature, like between 65 and 68F. That should permit a decent side-by-side comparison. Don't forget to taste blind.

Bob

* http://www.danstaryeast.com/nottingham.html
** http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf

Gammon N Beer said:

Hi

If one brews an eight gallon batch of beer and splits it in half, then pitches Nottingham to one carboy and Safale 05 to the other, what kind of taste results could one expect?

(Fermentation conditions are the same.)

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I have done a bunch of side-by-side yeast experiments and the only thing that separates the two strains, that I can distinguish, is that Nottingham will dry the beer out a little more. I use Nottingham a lot and I like its ability to consistently attenuate well, because it allows me to adjust the sweetness/mouth-feel of my beers by adjusting the recipe, without changing the yeast.

Bob said:

It's not necessarily a given that 75F will give "off flavors". "Estery" doesn't equate with "off flavors".

S-05, being a derivative of clean (meaning not estery) American ale yeast, is often seen as leaving little in the way of yeast character. Nottingham, being a derivative of often estery (fruity) English ale strains, is more likely to have an estery character.

Experience has shown, however, than when fermented at the lower end of its temperature range Nottingham ferments with little in the way of fruity esters. Indeed, it is touted as "neutral" - Danstar tells us Nottingham "produces low concentrations of fruity and estery aromas and has been described as neutral for ale yeast, allowing the full natural flavor of malt & hops to develop."*

S-05 "produces well balanced beers with low diacetyl and a very clean, crisp end palate."**

75F is outside the upper end of Nottingham's optimum range. 75F is listed as the extreme upper end of S-05's range. No matter which strain is chosen, at this temperature excessive ester generation is pretty much guaranteed.

I suggest you choose a mid-range temperature, like between 65 and 68F. That should permit a decent side-by-side comparison. Don't forget to taste blind.

Bob

* http://www.danstaryeast.com/nottingham.html
** http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf

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I really appreciate you taking the time. I am beginning to look more closely at the yeast I am using. I fermented my samples in the 66-68F range. I used 75F in my question just to indicate a broad difference in temperatures.

I also used the term, "off flavors" due to this wiki article: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Esters

I am though finding that I have experienced esters in a number of brews. Going back to the records, I find they were beers where I used Nottingham.

I think I prefer the 05 over Nottingham, at least until I get a good handle on the yeast attributes. I do find I brew the beers I like that can sub between the two. I think I will brew a series using 05, then pop in a Nottingham in a split batch again and keep better records.

calpyro said:

I have done a bunch of side-by-side yeast experiments and the only thing that separates the two strains, that I can distinguish, is that Nottingham will dry the beer out a little more. I use Nottingham a lot and I like its ability to consistently attenuate well, because it allows me to adjust the sweetness/mouth-feel of my beers by adjusting the recipe, without changing the yeast.

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calpyro
Do you get the esters that Bob refers to, Or, do you control the temps to the Danstar standard?

Bob said:

I suggest you choose a mid-range temperature, like between 65 and 68F. That should permit a decent side-by-side comparison. Don't forget to taste UNTIL YOU'RE blind.

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Fixed that for you.

I find Nottingham to have a disagreeable (to me) tartness and fruitiness. 05 can be fruity, but is generally pretty clean and doesn't have that tart flavor.

I would have to agree with Denny. The handfull of beers I have breweed with Nottingham, have had an "off" flavor that I am not a fan of. I have made the same recipies with US-05 and wlp001 and have enjoyed those much more. YMMV

Denny said:

I find Nottingham to have a disagreeable (to me) tartness and fruitiness. 05 can be fruity, but is generally pretty clean and doesn't have that tart flavor.

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Completely agree with this statement.

Gammon N Beer said:

calpyro
Do you get the esters that Bob refers to, Or, do you control the temps to the Danstar standard?

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I did eight side-by-side batches comparing Nottingham vs. Safale 05 two years ago. The only difference that I, or a local pro brewer, that I have taste my brews, was that Nottingham attenuates consistently lower. Perhaps the difference in residual sugar explains the “tartness” some have found.
There are numerous process variables that affect yeast flavors that different brewers can have from the same yeast. Pitching rate, oxygenation of the wort, fermentation temperatures etc. I have not found any undesirable flavors that others have noted.
To explain my testing of the yeasts, I brew ten gallon batches and fermented in two carboys, that each gets different yeast. In this way, I can compare different yeast in the same beer, at the same time. Additionally, my process is quite controlled. I oxygenate for the exact same time each time. I control the fermentation temperature exactly the same at 66 degrees F during active fermentation and ramp up to 72 degrees F, after seven days and pitch the same quantity of yeast.
Prior to my regimen of strict fermentation control, I used to get “off flavors” when I lost control of the fermentation variables noted above. Any yeast can be stressed to impart poor qualities if treated poorly.
My suggestion is to perform the same experiments that I have done. Brew the same beer over and over and split between two yeasts. In this manner, you can compare yourself the difference that yeast can impart.
I like Nottingham because of its neutral flavor and ability to dry out beer. It ferments very consistently given proper fermentation control and has allowed me to concentrate on recipe formulation to affect the flavors of my beer while relying on the yeast’s consistent performance. If I want more sweetness, I add more Carapils or increase mash temp. If I want to make an Imperial beer dry, I can. Nottingham has allowed me to have more control of my brewing process that I cannot find in yeasts that don not attenuate as well, at a reasonable price and without the need for a building a starter.

Interesting. I have found S-05 to attenuate better than any other yeast I have used.

Denny said:

I find Nottingham to have a disagreeable (to me) tartness and fruitiness. 05 can be fruity, but is generally pretty clean and doesn't have that tart flavor.

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i haven't used nottingham yet but i picked up a pack.
been using us05 for everything. just recently did a batch with wlp023 (burton ale yeast) and us05. same batch split in two fermenters...the wlp023 has this same tartness to it you found with the nottingham.
the beer is only about 3 weeks old now so i'm wondering if it will tone down a bit.

Aubie Stout said:

Interesting. I have found S-05 to attenuate better than any other yeast I have used.

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Same here. Usually I get close to 80% with US-05. Nottingham in low 70%.

When I use nottingham its at low-mid 50s F and the beer will be very,very clean almost lager-like.
Funny people get low attenuation with (Nottingham) my dutch homebrewer friends & me joke that nottingham will eat everthing incl. wood

I have had three batches fermented with Nottingham that I did not care for. My thoughts lead to Denny's comment and that of others in the thread.

Yet, I am not just yet willing to abandon that yeast. calpyro really provided food for thought. I was thinking I would use 05 exclusively as a sub for the Nottingham but I don;t think I will just yet.

I am going to brew side by side brews using both the yeasts and control the variables as calpyro has suggested. I also am interested in what Houblon does at temperatures in the 50's. I will play with both for a bit and test using one of my house beers.

AdIn said:

Same here. Usually I get close to 80% with US-05. Nottingham in low 70%.

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I just reviewed a recent IIPA I brewed, which started at 1.102 and finished at 1.012, with four packages of Nottingham. In this beer, I underestimated the yeast’s ability and it dried the beer too much. I had to back-sweeten the beer in the keg, with 8 ounces of Dextrin, to make the beer more drinkable. I have been consistantly able to have Nottingham attenuate more than 70%.

Gammon N Beer said:

I also am interested in what Houblon does at temperatures in the 50's. I will play with both for a bit and test using one of my house beers.

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This is well proven recipe that if done correctly will taste like honey candy.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f70/panty-dropper-honey-wheat-151570/


The other times I used Notty cold is back when testing out new hops and only wanted to taste the hop`s effect on known recipe (house APA).


Brew up a house beer and spilt between several yeasts keep all other variables stable to really see what each yeast does to the resulting beer.



Now a days I use something else (yeast) as theres so many others to use ie:Wyeast VSS , Whitelabs Platinum.

Denny said:

I find Nottingham to have a disagreeable (to me) tartness and fruitiness. 05 can be fruity, but is generally pretty clean and doesn't have that tart flavor.

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I use notthingham quite often, and I too am noticing that slight dry/fruity tartness to the flavor of the beer, but is only apprent in my higher gravity nottingham ales that are fermented below 65 degrees. It is not a good flavor.....however I recently fermented a cream ale at about 67 degrees with nottingham and it is crystal clear and free of this flavor.

I do find US-05 to be consistently cleaner of a wider range of temperatures however.

I realize that this is a long dead thread, but I'd also like to agree with the others who have noticed a mild but obvious tart flavor in my beers fermented with Nottingham that I have never noticed in my other brews (I've never tried warmer than 66 F or so). I definitely have a strong preference for the flavor of beers made with S-05. The only reason I went back and tried it again after my initial bad experience was because I wasn't particularly happy with the clarity of S-05. I regret it. It's a shame as I still have a few packets sitting in the fridge. I've managed to get in excess of 80% attenuation with both yeasts if I mash low for fermentability.

Hope this helps someone.