I'm thinking I may quit using brew software

I am not wanting to give up the brewsmith because it's bad or something, I just think that doing everything on paper will make me a better brewer in the long run. I've never asked any pro brewers but i would bet they do it by hand. What do you all think?

oldschool said:

I am not wanting to give up the brewsmith because it's bad or something, I just think the doing everything on paper will make me a better brewer in the long run. I've never asked any pro brewers but i would bet they do it on paper. What do you all think?

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All of them I have talked to use software.

I think most pro brewers use software. It's more convenient. Heck most pro-brewers these days use software that controls the entire brewing process, just like with herms and rims systems. They load them up, punch in the numbers on the micro-controller and hit the big red start button, and dump in the hops when the system beeps.

And whether or not you use software won't make you a better brewer, it's your technique, and your knowledge of ingredients and recipe creation that will make you a better brewer, not whether or not you can cipher in your head, on paper, with a calculator or with software. How you achieve the numbers is irrevelant, it's what goes into those numbers that matters.

That's just a preference.

I couldn't imagine a pro brewer not using software. I'm sure they know how to do it on paper, but like anything, using software gives you better record keeping. Why take the time to long hand everything when you don't have to unless you just want to so you know how.

Okay, take "make me a better brewer" how you want. I guess i like doing things the "oldschool" way. When I took calculus in college, we graph problems on a TI or by hand. Yes, the graphing calc. was way easier but, plotting points by hand helped you grasp a deeper understanding and appreciate your outcome a little more.

Also, I would bet that most of us can't create a recipe right now, and accurately calculate color, bitterness, and/or OG estimate/% efficiency. Well...kai can.

oldschool said:

Also, I would bet that most of us can't create a recipe right now, and accurately calculate color, bitterness, and/or OG estimate/% efficiency. Well...kai can.

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Nor would any of us need to. It's not like our welfare depends on it.

By all mean, if you want to learn it longhand more power to ya'. But it won't make you a better brewer.

oldschool said:

Also, I would bet that most of us can't create a recipe right now, and accurately calculate color, bitterness, and/or OG estimate/% efficiency. Well...kai can.

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So? I can't fly without an airplane.

The trick is that beersmith is a TOOL. It's not a means to an end, it won't improve your beer by itself. You could look up all the formulas and punch and crunch to your hearts content...but your beer won't change, since you'll get the same results. I don't think working the numbers by hand would give me any more insight into the process, as I'm watching things like color, bitterness, OG, etc, as I add and subtract ingredients.

In fact, I think beersmith HELPS my understanding. I can move hops additions around in seconds and watch the results. I can increase/decrease grains and watch the results. It's instant feedback, which to me provides the GREATEST learning opportunity.

oldschool said:

Also, I would bet that most of us can't create a recipe right now, and accurately calculate color, bitterness, and/or OG estimate/% efficiency. Well...kai can.

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Sure I can, and I can do it in probably a tenth of the time that Kai does long hand. I do it by using software

Not saying it wouldn't be useful to to know how in case you wanted to be able to design a recipe sometime when you're not at your PC, but once you learn it, I see no point not using the software.

You guys say all these things like you work for Brad Smith. Guess I just want to geek out more than you all.

It may improve your math skills, but doubt it would make you a better brewer. I think it helps to understand the basics behind OG, color, bitterness, fermentability, etc. but having to do a calculation by hand vs using software is not a brewing exercise, it's a mathematical excercise.

oldschool said:

Also, I would bet that most of us can't create a recipe right now, and accurately calculate color, bitterness, and/or OG estimate/% efficiency. Well...kai can.

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Well, that's why I am in this hobby to create recipes for great tasting beer. And I must be doing ok, since I've been taking home medals in contests the last couple years, and for some pretty wild brews, that were recipes of my own creation.

I know what ingredients do what, how they work together, what's the best mashing technique to achieve that body that I want. I know roughly the IBU/SG ratio and how relates to whether I'm looking for a malty, balanced, or hoppy, what hops produce what characteristics. That comes from experience, and experimentation, and reading/study...

All that is what I take to the software, and then like, irregular pulse and Joety both said, I can "tweak" the recipe quickly in the software, and then the software provides me with a series of "target numbers" that I am aiming for with my process.

I didn't come into this to crunch numbers (I've admittedly on here countless times that I suck at math) I came into this through my love of flavors and cooking. The software just makes it easier and allows me to do it quickly and accurately, and with repeated results.

Next time I drive I'm going to rip the speedometer out of the car and instead calculate the speed by observing the mile markers on the side of the freeway and timing my progress with a stopwatch. It'll make me a better driver. In fact I bet a lot of drivers don't even know there are mile markers on the side of the freeway...

(kidding... if you want to throw out the software and do the math by hand or just use the force you should go for it if you think it'll be fun).

oldschool said:

Also, I would bet that most of us can't create a recipe right now, and accurately calculate color, bitterness, and/or OG estimate/% efficiency. Well...kai can.

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What? I'm pretty sure I can. I've done it before, and I can always reference my copy of Designing Great Beers if I need to.

You can boil all your wort by wood fire too. That's old school.

Bobby_M said:

You can boil all your wort by wood fire too. That's old school.

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Depends on whether or not you use a hydrometer, thermometer or a clock...

Now THIS is "old school."

i wholeheartedly agree that doing the math by hand will make you a better brewer. it will teach you to make on the fly decisions or allow you to better understand where the problems exist in your system. it will also help your creation/critique skills on recipes. there is nothing wrong with using software, but don't try to convince me it is anything more than a crutch (if you don't know how to do it by hand first).

you guys act like the math behind brewing is differential equations or something. most of it is basic algebra. treat it like math in school... learn how to do it by hand and then use brewing software as a convenient tool after you have the basics down. hop utilization is as complex as it gets.

Dang, dude asks a simple question and people here unleash the hounds!

Seriously, doing calculations by hand probably won't make you a better brewer. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it! Having a bad-ass 3-tier system doesn't make you a better brewer either. Nor, for that matter, does building anything (wort chiller, MLT, etc) by yourself. So why do it? Because it's fun. Because this hobby provides plenty of different satisfactions, some of which involve geeking out on various DIY activities. For some people that's building a pimped-out RIMS; for others its figuring out the math by hand. I, for one, say go for it - if it sounds fun, then do it!

FWIW, I don't use any software - I figured out how to do some of the calculations by hand, then cobbled together a little Excel spreadsheet that could do it for me. But it was fun for me to figure out how things work.

I'm with the OP (sorta). I think once you should calculate everything by hand. Don't see how it will make a brew any better, but really you can't get to 10th level beer nerd if you haven't.

And isn't there a scout badge for that?

I only began to use software after I did numerous batches by "hand". The importance of doing the math by hand (besides improving your math skills) is that you that you get a better understand of how specific changes affect your brew. Once you understand the formulas you would be surprised how well you can bring up numbers off the top of your head on the fly without consulting a computer to know if you are correct.

Also if we become attached to our brewing software we are opening to the possibility of promash enslaving the human population. (think Matrix, Terminator, i-Robot) Its bound to happen.

oldschool said:

You guys say all these things like you work for Brad Smith. Guess I just want to geek out more than you all.

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You ever met a geek who doesn't have a calculator? Geeks don't waste time.


Beersmith/Promash/Whatever spreadsheet/etc, are all tools. Doing the math out by hand is just going to be a pain, and frankly, I think its going to keep you from playing around with your recipes.

Synovia said:

You ever met a geek who doesn't have a calculator? Geeks don't waste time.


Beersmith/Promash/Whatever spreadsheet/etc, are all tools. Doing the math out by hand is just going to be a pain, and frankly, I think its going to keep you from playing around with your recipes.

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You ever meet a geek who hasnt memorized pie to 50 digits. Or knows all the square roots and cube roots to a hundred.

A tool should only be used once you have shown that you could survive without it. It is important to know what the brew software does when you plug in your numbers.

I use paper throughout the brew, then transcribe to the software.

I think the problem lies not with what we brew or the tools we use to brew it. Many people seem a little obsessed about brewing to a certain style.

I'm all for winging it. Wing it with a tool, wing it without tools. Just brew the stuff, and don't get pre-occupied with coulour, carbonation, FG etc.

Once you have your method, you don't NEED Beersmith......Guess what, you don't NEED pen and paper either.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

I think the problem lies not with what we brew or the tools we use to brew it. Many people seem a little obsessed about brewing to a certain style.

I'm all for winging it. Wing it with a tool, wing it without tools. Just brew the stuff, and don't get pre-occupied with coulour, carbonation, FG etc.

Once you have your method, you don't NEED Beersmith......Guess what, you don't NEED pen and paper either.

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While this is true I would wager that being meticulous and calculating will on average lead to better beer brewed to what the brewer intended.

While accidents and surprises can be fun, I prefer to craft what I dream up. I am sure it is the same with your art. Beer is my canvas, I think up a beer that I want to brew, carefully plan and design it, then brew it. If it doesn't turn out as planned, while it still may be delicious I am usually not thrilled about it.

Different strokes for different folks. I think the main focus is to do what makes you happy. It is a hobby after all.

While I can't imagine taking the time to do everything by hand, maybe that is fun for you. Not everyone spends hours and hours designing systems they will never have money to build, but I still like to do it. Do what is fun for you.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

While this is true I would wager that being meticulous and calculating will on average lead to better beer brewed to what the brewer intended.

While accidents and surprises can be fun, I prefer to craft what I dream up. I am sure it is the same with your art. Beer is my canvas, I think up a beer that I want to brew, carefully plan and design it, then brew it. If it doesn't turn out as planned, while it still may be delicious I am usually not thrilled about it.

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We must have been separated at birth.

Hmmm.... I hadn't really read any of this thread except the first couple posts then my fellow gnome's post.

I am all for giving up the comp if you want to, but it won't make you a better brewer. There isn't some magic going on behind the computer or anything. It is simple formulas and crunching numbers. Maybe if you haven't done a lot of science in you background or something it could be very helpful, but for me it really is a waste of time. I have crunched enough numbers in engineering school to last me quite a while. If there was some benefit to doing the numbers by hand every time then sure I would go for it, but the fact is that the software is easy to use, takes less time and is easier to make small changes. For example, balancing percentages and colors etc. the next day is a 2 second ordeal in software; on paper it may mean a full recalc. to see what happened to your designed beer.

Again, do what you want, but other than getting some understanding of how the math behind the software goes I don't feel it gives you a better understanding of the brewing process or science.

I used to keep notes in a leather bound journal. I don't do that anymore because my beers improved markedly when I started keeping good notes. The old school aspect was fun, but I liked better beer more, so I changed.

I don't need math practice. I get enough of that performing calculations as part of my job.

Further, brewing software is simply applying formulas to user inputted values, generating a result across various different aspects. Were someone to perform those calculations by hand, it would require time and tedium to complete them all.

Only to get the same answer, assuming that no mistakes were made.

That to me is a waste of time, time that could be better budgeted brewing, learning about brewing or even better, enjoying beer.

Really now, if all you are trying to do here is to show your math skills, that's unimpressive. Solving the Goldbach Conjecture or proving the Reimann Hypothesis, now THAT would be impressive.

oldschool said:

I am not wanting to give up the brewsmith because it's bad or something, I just think that doing everything on paper will make me a better brewer in the long run. I've never asked any pro brewers but i would bet they do it by hand. What do you all think?

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Call me old fashioned, but I prefer using pen and paper to do the calculations. I don't think calculating on paper makes me a better brewer, but I enjoy understanding what is going into the formulation. I have used brewing software in the past though. The plus side besides understanding is even if my PC crashes I can still brew and formulate recipes. The formulas are all surprisingly simple.

Either way works well It's really just what you prefer.

The size of batches, amount of ingredients and need to be consistent every batch is most likely why pro brewers use software. If I brewed professionally I would switch to using software.

:thick skin warning:

Clonefarmer said:

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer using pen and paper to do the calculations.

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Says the guy with the link to a bunch of brewing calculators in his sig... hehe

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

:thick skin warning:



Says the guy with the link to a bunch of brewing calculators in his sig... hehe

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Just because I don't use them doesn't mean I can't share them .

I would say that acutally crunching the numbers probably won't make you a better brewer, but the process of designing a recipe on paper could force you to better understand the relationship between grain and og, for example, or between time, AA%, and IBUs.

I suppose it might be useful to actually design your own spreadsheet from scratch, then use that for the actually number crunching.

All that said--I remember reading How to Brew and Designing Great Beers, and at the time devoted some amount of energy to understanding how a recipe works. Now, I use Beersmith and love it.

I seem to remember a podcast by Jamil where he says that there are two kinds of brewers: those who love the the process, and those who love end product, i.e. the guy who gets excited about his triple decoction mash and the guy that throws some melanoidin malt in there to achieve a similar, if not exactly the same effect. Granted, there are shades of gray, but I think it's pretty clear that the people doing calcs by hand really like seeing where those numbers come from. While the two types of brewers may turn out the same beer, the experience is different for each. There are definitely people on here that would malt their own grain and grow their own hops just because they like to do it, and there are those who use the pre-malted grains and pelletized hops. Neither is the better brewer, one just gets their kicks really seeing the inner workings of something.

What formulas are you guys, who are doing this by hand or using spreadsheets, using? The ones from designing great beers?

I think that doing the calculations by hand a few times might help to understand the underlying concepts (which I would like to do), but once you understand it, doing them by hand just increases the likelihood of making mistakes, so you might as well put the formulas into a spreadsheet or a program.

Or maybe you can make your own homebrew slide rule or disk calculator...

I don't know if it would make you a better brewer, but it would give you a more down to earth understanding of the nuts and bolts of the process. You'll probably screw up a few batches, but I would think that if nothing else you would definitely increase your math skills.

GRHunter said:

I don't know if it would make you a better brewer, but it would give you a more down to earth understanding of the nuts and bolts of the process. You'll probably screw up a few batches, but I would think that if nothing else you would definitely increase your math skills.

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Sure. Try doing SRM = 1.49 * MCUs^0.69 <-- morley curve for beer color

I haven't the faintest idea how to raise a number to a fractional power without using a calculator. Although I guess that even using a calculator is still doing it "by hand"... right?

passedpawn said:

Sure. Try doing SRM = 1.49 * MCUs^0.69 <-- morley curve for beer color

I haven't the faintest idea how to raise a number to a fractional power without using a calculator. Although I guess that even using a calculator is still doing it "by hand"... right?

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Right, just not using software. Even medieval brewers had abacuses, amirite?

passedpawn said:

Sure. Try doing SRM = 1.49 * MCUs^0.69 <-- morley curve for beer color

I haven't the faintest idea how to raise a number to a fractional power without using a calculator. Although I guess that even using a calculator is still doing it "by hand"... right?

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If you can make a reasonable guess you could do it fairly quickly by hand using Newton's method.

Srsly though, most of these things ought to be approached empirically anyway. Maybe these formulae for estimating bitterness or color are useful for a first crack at a recipe but after that if you want it lighter or darker or more bitter or less bitter you really shouldn't be using software to figure out what to do.

oldschool said:

I am not wanting to give up the brewsmith because it's bad or something, I just think that doing everything on paper will make me a better brewer in the long run. I've never asked any pro brewers but i would bet they do it by hand. What do you all think?

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I hear ya.

I have to admit, though, when I first started AG brewing, I used beertools.com to get me in the ballpark. Once I figured out what malts did what, and what alpha acids did what in the boil, I ditched using recipe calculators and generators.

....for the most part.

I always write my recipes by hand, but sometimes I'll punch it in to a recipe calc for checks and balances. I'd say about 5% of the time it actually influences my recipe though.

By the way, I personally know two professional brewers who don't use recipe calculators. FWIW.

TB

remilard said:

If you can make a reasonable guess you could do it fairly quickly by hand using Newton's method.

Srsly though, most of these things ought to be approached empirically anyway. Maybe these formulae for estimating bitterness or color are useful for a first crack at a recipe but after that if you want it lighter or darker or more bitter or less bitter you really shouldn't be using software to figure out what to do.

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Agreed. What's the point of calculating (predicting) the color, IBU, OG, etc. to the nth degree when there are MANY variables in your process, let alone unaccounted for elements missing in the calculator itself? Yeah, it'll get you in the ballpark (maybe even really close in some or most cases), but I've written close to 100 recipes by hand (no calcs) that satisfied my intent. I do take some pride in that.

Does that make me a better brewer? Absolutely not. It's all in the beer itself, and that's what matters. (Well, that and having a good time!) Am I worse off not using a calc? Certainly not in my case, but that will depend on the brewer. Empirical data is the best thing you have going for you as a brewer writing recipes (assuming consistent equipment, and that you take good notes). That's direct feedback on the outcome of all the elements in your process and ingredients.

However, there is absolutely zero shame in using a calculator, or software of any kind. It's a tool available to us that has undoubtedly resulted in more efficient brewing processes, and cost savings. I appreciated solving limits of equations in calculus by hand too, but I won't give up my TI-83.