Electric boiling tun

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mr_beland

mr_beland

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I'm planning to build an electric boiling tun. The plan is to use 2 x 3000W water elements on 240V (245V exactly) and control it manualy. BUT!.. with this amount of amp (24.5A), I can't use an ordinary rheostat. Some guys here in the forum seems to use an PID thermostat, but i don't figure how you can obtain an consistant boiling. A friend of me, told me that thyristor dimmers could sustain this intensity. I seek the web, but it wasn't conclusive. Later, today, i was seeking again and i found this :
http://www.galco.com/scripts/cgiip.exe/wa/wcat/itemdtl.r?listtype=&pnum=GT3A-3AF20-IDEC

Is this suitable for this application. If you set it in the lowest delay range, it could give an consistent boiling without excessive fooling and evaporation rate.

I also want to weld the 1'' locknut that fit for water element on bargain fittings web site, anyone ever try this or have better ideas?
 
Using a PID is easy.

Use the MANUAL mode, set the cycle time to 1 second. Then you simply control the boil with % output. I use 70%. That is 70% on and 30% off, the entire cycle is 1 second, it sustains a boil perfectly.

A huge dimmer is going to cost you dearly.
 
You need to use the PID controller to drive an SSR hopefully fitted with a rather large heatsink!!

Alternately if you are familar with the Arduino environment you can make a simple project with an Arduino baseboard and a potentiometer which can drive your SSR with 0-255 steps. I have a pretty rough looking setup based on an veroboard arduino clone a linear taper pot and a 40A SSR. This is used to control the power input to a 3000W element working on 240VAC for a small boil kettle I find it works very well.
 
The Pol said:
Using a PID is easy.

Use the MANUAL mode, set the cycle time to 1 second. Then you simply control the boil with % output. I use 70%. That is 70% on and 30% off, the entire cycle is 1 second, it sustains a boil perfectly.

A huge dimmer is going to cost you dearly.
Click to expand...

I bought an PID temperature controller from Auber Instrument (very cheap and I got no problem) for my fermentation chamber, but it doesn't have the manual mode.

Then.. the question is, where do you buy the PID w/manual mode
The cheapest for sure!
 
Search for a variac. Used to use these for controlling AC loads. I don't believe I ever saw one for these loads, but who knows.

I think the PID+SSR route is way easier. Way. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, though.
 
Are you running your 240 to a separate breaker box to do the split?
 
I live in an apartement. I did 8 20L brews on my range, and it suffers from that much weight. It's why i want to go electric.

I will unplug the dryer each brew (245V exactly; at 6000W, there's 24,5A through the lines). There's an 30Amp ON/OFF breaker (i dont know the technical name)

Does il matter if my boiling tun have an 15m power cable?


And again, what is the best (cheaest) PID controller for this application. With the manual mode (on/off cycle)
 
mr_beland said:
I live in an apartement. I did 8 20L brews on my range, and it suffers from that much weight. It's why i want to go electric.

I will unplug the dryer each brew (245V exactly; at 6000W, there's 24,5A through the lines). There's an 30Amp ON/OFF breaker (i dont know the technical name)

Does il matter if my boiling tun have an 15m power cable?


And again, what is the best (cheaest) PID controller for this application. With the manual mode (on/off cycle)
Click to expand...

You need to use an adequately sized cord or it will over heat. There are sites that you can 'google' that will tell you what gauge wire to use for the amperage vs distance.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-prEYchnbuCt/Learn/learningcenter/car/cable_gauge_chart.html
 
mr_beland said:
I bought an PID temperature controller from Auber Instrument (very cheap and I got no problem) for my fermentation chamber, but it doesn't have the manual mode.

Then.. the question is, where do you buy the PID w/manual mode
The cheapest for sure!
Click to expand...

Everyone I know has gotten thier PIDs at Auber, they have manual mode, if you buy the right model. They are $45, off the top of my head, try the SYL-2352 from Auber, it has manual mode and auto tune, they are excellent. I own one.


Here is a link... easy peasy.
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3
 
Use an SSR and PWM controller.

You can build it pretty easy or buy one on ebay for super cheap. You will need a small power source but an old cell phone charger or the like should work. You just need a small amount of current to trigger the SSR.

You get a simple manual control from a dial.

Something like this should run two elements.
Dual Output controller

Here is another cheap option:

EBAY

These will work to control a fan too. Use it to make Yeast Stir Plate.


Here is a good link if you want to make it yourself

CD's New Electric Wort Boiler

There is a schematic and PCB Sketch.
 
I use this for a HLT, there's no reason not to use it has a kettle.

16154_178153537669_549282669_2955129_2448099_n.jpg
 
I had actually thought about selling off some kegs this year, now I am glad I didnt. Now the pipeline is so deep that I can actually take the time to properly age my ales and lager... the lagers.

BACK to the OP... There are really many ways to control an element, the Ohio Tech thingy is cool, but $500 is the cost of a brewing rig in some cases, simply for the controller.

The PID is also excellent because when you are sparging, you can set a TEMP. and maintain a certain TEMP. in the kettle. Say, 180F, so that you can reach a boil more quickly.

Also, I use my BK to heat my cleaning and sanitizing liquids for CIP. I simply set a TEMP. on the PID, about 140F and use a hot wash cycle with the PID and March pump doing all the work. I pump from the BK through the entire system and it returns to the kettle, over and over.

PID $45
SSR $20
Heat Sink $20
Thermocouple $10
Tech support at HBT, FREE
 
The Pol said:
I had actually thought about selling off some kegs this year, now I am glad I didnt. Now the pipeline is so deep that I can actually take the time to properly age my ales and lager... the lagers.

BACK to the OP... There are really many ways to control an element, the Ohio Tech thingy is cool, but $500 is the cost of a brewing rig in some cases, simply for the controller.

The PID is also excellent because when you are sparging, you can set a TEMP. and maintain a certain TEMP. in the kettle. Say, 180F, so that you can reach a boil more quickly.

Also, I use my BK to heat my cleaning and sanitizing liquids for CIP. I simply set a TEMP. on the PID, about 140F and use a hot wash cycle with the PID and March pump doing all the work. I pump from the BK through the entire system and it returns to the kettle, over and over.

PID $45
SSR $20
Heat Sink $20
Thermocouple $10
Tech support at HBT, FREE
Click to expand...

I'm trying hard NOT to gear up to a big system......
 
Hermit said:
I'm trying hard NOT to gear up to a big system......
Click to expand...

I am just saying, I personally wouldnt spend $500 on what amounts to a large dimmer, when for 80% less, you can have a much more versatile controller, so in the future, you have options with it. Large system or not, the PID is versatile. If a dimmer is worth $500, then a PID is worth about $2,000, so $45 is a steal.

If you spent $500 on a large dimmer for an element, and in the future wanted to go PID for whatever reason, youd find it VERY hard to get your money out of that thing, because it costs so much and does so little.
 
The Pol said:
I am just saying, I personally wouldnt spend $500 on what amounts to a large dimmer, when for 80% less, you can have a much more versatile controller, so in the future, you have options with it. Large system or not, the PID is versatile. If a dimmer is worth $500, then a PID is worth about $2,000, so $45 is a steal.

If you spent $500 on a large dimmer for an element, and in the future wanted to go PID for whatever reason, youd find it VERY hard to get your money out of that thing, because it costs so much and does so little.
Click to expand...

A friend brought some of his stuff over to teach me to brew. All grain. Now I'm pricing equipment, planning, etc......... Hard to justify 3 gallon batches when I'll be splitting with my son.... So.....
 
The Pol said:
I am just saying, I personally wouldnt spend $500 on what amounts to a large dimmer, when for 80% less, you can have a much more versatile controller, so in the future, you have options with it. Large system or not, the PID is versatile. If a dimmer is worth $500, then a PID is worth about $2,000, so $45 is a steal.

If you spent $500 on a large dimmer for an element, and in the future wanted to go PID for whatever reason, youd find it VERY hard to get your money out of that thing, because it costs so much and does so little.
Click to expand...

True but why would you ever need to use a PID on a BK. You just need to keep a boil not an exact temp. Unless you are going to go full automation. Even then you are never really going to know at what temp your "rolling boil" will be.

I do however agree with you on the $500 dimmer. I am making mine for about $50. $40 for the SSR and about $10 in parts for the circuit. I am getting a PID for my HLT but I see no need for the BK.

You can even buy a dimmer circuit (PWM) for about $20. so for less then $75 you can make your own dimmer.
 
True Brewmoor, a PID isnt necessary, but for the reasons I posted above, I do enjoy having it on my BK, as my BK doesnt "just" boil.

The PID is nice for CIP

For maintaining a set temp. in the BK during the sparge

It is also nice to have the thermocouple and temp. readout in the BK while whirlpool chilling.

Some people have used a SINGLE PID for thier HERMS or RIMS heaters, and then used that same PID for the boil, pulling double duty from a single $45 PID. $45 PID to control a RIMS or HERMS and the BK is pretty tight.
 
The Pol said:
Some people have used a SINGLE PID for thier HERMS or RIMS heaters, and then used that same PID for the boil, pulling double duty from a single $45 PID. $45 PID to control a RIMS or HERMS and the BK is pretty tight.
Click to expand...


I might wire my single PID for that option. Put in some bypass switch to bypass the manual "dimmer". Wire is cheap so I might add it just in case.
 
Brewmoor said:
True but why would you ever need to use a PID on a BK. You just need to keep a boil not an exact temp. Unless you are going to go full automation. Even then you are never really going to know at what temp your "rolling boil" will be.

I do however agree with you on the $500 dimmer. I am making mine for about $50. $40 for the SSR and about $10 in parts for the circuit. I am getting a PID for my HLT but I see no need for the BK.

You can even buy a dimmer circuit (PWM) for about $20. so for less then $75 you can make your own dimmer.
Click to expand...

My understanding from what he said earlier is you can use this to 'duty cycle' the BK so you aren't using more power than you need during the boil also.
 
Hermit said:
My understanding from what he said earlier is you can use this to 'duty cycle' the BK so you aren't using more power than you need during the boil also.
Click to expand...

Right right, it is duty cycle control, so on/off, I use the equivilent of 3700W to boil
 
Hermit said:
My understanding from what he said earlier is you can use this to 'duty cycle' the BK so you aren't using more power than you need during the boil also.
Click to expand...

PWM does the same thing. It sends out pulses to the SSR. you have the option to go 100% but when you just need to hold temp the PWM is doing bursts of on/off so you are not wasting power.

The Pot (Dial) is adjusting the length of the on/offs
 
The Pol said:
Some people have used a SINGLE PID for thier HERMS or RIMS heaters, and then used that same PID for the boil, pulling double duty from a single $45 PID. $45 PID to control a RIMS or HERMS and the BK is pretty tight.
Click to expand...

I did that. The logic was that I couldn't use both PIDs at the same time because I couldn't drive 2 elements at the same time - limited by amps.

Works great BTW.
 
passedpawn said:
I did that. The logic was that I couldn't use both PIDs at the same time because I couldn't drive 2 elements at the same time - limited by amps.

Works great BTW.
Click to expand...

Thanks for chiming in bro...
 
Hermit said:
A friend brought some of his stuff over to teach me to brew. All grain. Now I'm pricing equipment, planning, etc......... Hard to justify 3 gallon batches when I'll be splitting with my son.... So.....
Click to expand...

I wouldn't do all of this if I was doing 3 gallon batches either. I do 5's and 10's now and I would not look back on going all electric with a PID controller from Auber. :ban:
 
The Pol said:
PID $45
SSR $20
Heat Sink $20
Thermocouple $10
Tech support at HBT, FREE
Click to expand...

Why do i need Heat sink.. And, is thermocouple absolutly necessery in manual mode??

And again, how do you fit your elements through your kettle.
If someone have some welding experience, is it possible to weld this (http://www.greatbargain.net/order/shop2.html see the 1'' locknut oring) to the kettle.
 
mr_beland said:
Why do i need Heat sink.. And, is thermocouple absolutly necessery in manual mode??
Click to expand...

Heat sink to cool the SSR, so that you dont fry it.

Thermocouple, sure, with no input the PID will go into error mode and not work at all.
 
Does heat sink are bolt on with the pid. Where did you get it.
And do I need to ventilate it. What distance between your kettle and your PID??
 
mr_beland said:
Does heat sink are bolt on with the pid. Where did you get it.
And do I need to ventilate it. What distance between your kettle and your PID??
Click to expand...

PID, SSR, Heatsink and Thermocouple at auberins.com

The heatsink does screw right to the SSR. Make sure the heatsink isnt inside your control panel, it should be mounted externally.

There is 3 feet between my PID and kettle.
 
Thanks for info. I'll go with PID + SSR. Maybe, later, i'll go with Arduino set up to also control the RIMS mash tun.

If I use an cooler as mash tun, it will allow to shut it off during steps. I read that is preferable to have no agitation during saccharification.

I will build a Keezer in a few months..
 
mr_beland said:
Thanks for info. I'll go with PID + SSR. Maybe, later, i'll go with Arduino set up to also control the RIMS mash tun.

If I use an cooler as mash tun, it will allow to shut it off during steps. I read that is preferable to have no agitation during saccharification.

I will build a Keezer in a few months..
Click to expand...

Huh? Agitation of what?
 

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