Altbier Kaiser Alt

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fredthecat said:
used this recipe mostly, especially the single decoction part (my first), though i change the grainbill to half munich, half pils and i dont have access to carafa so used chocolate instead. just tasted one after 6 days (i always have to have one per week after.. ) i can tell already it will likely be the best beer ive made so far. thanks!
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Half pils, half munich here too,
my hydro sample tasted wonderful today day 6, kinda bitter, But wl036 sweet taste, I cant wait,...I dont like carafa so i used 4oz chocolate wheat, and i can taste it in the sample.
I did 118deg. 20 minutes, infusion 147 for 25 min. 154 for 25 min. then mashed out at 168. first step mash for me, i think it will pay off,,, also fwh with mt-hood/spalt mix, Im certain this to be my best ever, this style is great.:rockin:...good luck with yours:mug:
 
Brewing this today and did my first decoction as instructed here and followed the mash schedule to a T. Worked out perfectly so far. I had to throw on a little tradition with the spalt since the only spalt I had were very low alpha% so I kicked it with just 3/4 oz of tradition for a 14.5 gal batch.

The decoction was way easier than I anticipated even after I had watched Kai's youtube vids.
 
Okay, three weeks in and looks like the FG is around 1.010. I used WLP029 and this is the clearest beer I have ever made! I won't be needing the gelatin addition. I think I used the wrong yeast, I guess WLP036 is the proper equivalent to WY1007. It's still very sweet and malty like a brown ale. I wonder if I let it sit another week if it will get any drier?

I think next time I'll adjust the Cl-SO4 ratio in the water profile to subdue the malt a bit more.
 
Sorry, newbie question please :eek: ...

What would be the best dry yeast for this recipe?

Thanks!

(Oh, and Kai, many thanks for braukaiser.com... an amazing repository of great info!)
 
Forgive my ignorance but I'm attempting to reproduce Kai's water recommendations and I'm a tad confused on the amount of water involved.

I think I understand he is putting 400mg of NaCl into 30L of RO water along with the other mineral amounts as well...

So his mineral quantities are utilized with 30L and I should scale as required for my needs?

Is this a correct understanding?
 
Yes, I believe he's treating 30L (8 gal.), which would likely be 4 gal. strike water and 4 gal. sparge water for a 5.5 gal. batch. He specifies 0.8g NaCl, which would be 800mg not 400mg.
 
michaeltrego said:
He specifies 0.8g NaCl, which would be 800mg not 400mg.
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Thanks for the response.

I guess I'm looking at the wrong data?? I see .4g NaCl on his list for WATER. Where are you seeing the .8g NaCl? I'm not trying to be picky, I just want to insure I'm using the correct data.
 
Sudz said:
Thanks for the response.

I guess I'm looking at the wrong data?? I see .4g NaCl on his list for WATER. Where are you seeing the .8g NaCl? I'm not trying to be picky, I just want to insure I'm using the correct data.
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Hmm, I was looking at the recipe page: Kaiser Alt - German brewing and more, which shows:

30L (assuming 25L (6.25 gal) pre-boil volume) reverse osmosis water +

0.8g NaCl (table salt)
0.6g MgSO4 (epsom salt)
1.8g NaHCO3 (baking soda)
4.0g CaCO3 (chalk)

(58mg/L Ca; 3mg/L Mg; 32mg/L Na; 10mg/L SO4; 21mg/L Cl; 150mg/L HCO3)
 
michaeltrego said:
Hmm, I was looking at the recipe page: Kaiser Alt - German brewing and more, which shows:
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Looks like we're both correct.

I'm looking at this recipe as posted under "hybrid ambers" in the forum recipes and for some reason the minerals specified for the water are different from those shown on the website you referenced. Puzzling since the article and recipe appear to be the same.

Thanks for the web reference. I've only glanced at the mineral bill for the water so I think I'll go through this to see if there are any other discrepancies. I may drop Kai a note to clarify this for myself as well as others.

Thanks....
 
Hmm, I didn't notice that before....all of the salts on this recipe page are half of what they are on his website...
 
So after intense consideration, and completely unable to find a dopplesticke or sticke recipe I have decided to double this recipe. Ive got 14lb Munich, 4oz carafa, 1lb 8oz caramunich and 4oz spalt for fwh or 60min. I'm thinking about doing a open fermentation inside a sanitized kegerator. I have lots of Pacman yeast which I usually work with. 55ibu 28srm and 7.9abv. I would like to ferment at 60 however the warmest the kegerator runs is at 55. What do you think about this attempt at a double alt? Hate it or love it?
 
Just bottled my efforts with this one. The mash schedule went as planned and hit my numbers. I made a starter with the 1007, oxygenated, and fermented at 67*F. Initial fermentation was very strong, overflowing my 1 gal water trap via my blow off hose, more so than any other ferment I've had.

Moved to secondary at 7 days, added gelatin and cold crashed at 14 days... but failed to check my gravity!! I know, I was warned by Kaiser... dumb, dumb, dumb. Caught up in my own bad habit.

Anyway at about day 21 the brew is crystal clear and I go to bottle... surprise... FG of 1.022! Ouch!!!

Backed out of bottling, added a small amount of Nottingham and returned to 67*F. A week later I'm at 1.009 and holding so I go ahead and bottle. The only downside is this stuff looks like muddy water but I believe it will settle out during conditioning. Does taste great for a green beer I might add.

Why am I exposing my dirty laundry one might ask?

The 1007 apparently does finish slower than most ale yeast I've used so when Kaiser tells you to verify the fermentation completion.. he ain't kiddin'.

Lesson learned....
 
NeverSober said:
So after intense consideration, and completely unable to find a dopplesticke or sticke recipe I have decided to double this recipe.
Click to expand...

I had the same thought recently, but instead of doubling the amounts, I was going to try a 50% increase and see how that went. Have you tried your recipe yet? I'd be interested in hearing how yours turns out.
 
I just brewed this. 3 weeks or so since bottling. I really like this beer, it's like nothing else I have ever tasted. Maybe that's because I'm very new to homebrewing. It tastes kind of fruity, malty but more to the dry side than sweet (sometimes a little syropy-like flavor). The hops are very nice balanced (I used Saaz). Very little head. Looks like cognac, dark red-brownish and clear.

My fermentation temps were high though: around 20-21°C or around 68-70 fahrenheit (ambient temp). Do you think this changed alot? I read on the manufacturer's website that this yeast, 1007, shouldn't produce much off flavor even in high temps. Next time I will control the temps better.

Thank you, Kaiser, for an awesome recipe and instructions!
 
I have a half gallon starter going for my brewday on Tuesday! Looking forward to this beer. Had a GREAT altbier at Titletown Brewery in Green Bay this past weekend.
 
dawgmatic said:
I love titletowns Alt! It's really dark for the style though
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I think they have some of the most solid brews I have had. Have not been disappointed yet. I'm not one for IPAs, either, but their Hopasaurus Rex is fantastic.

As for my version of Kaiser Alt, I was pressed for time, so I did a no sparge 3 gallon batch. I over compensated for the loss in efficiency by upping the base malt a bit...ended up at 1.060 OG. I still got good attenuation, it was down to 1.009 last I checked a couple days ago. Not too sure what to call it now.
 
I have brewed variations of this recipe before with good results. Yesterday I went at it again, this time by the book. Built up a starter of 1007, and followed the mash schedule as closely as possible. Nailed my OG of 1.046.

It's fermenting away at 67 deg. Can't wait to crack open the first one maybe 2 months from now!

Thanks Kaiser for the recipe and for all of your shared knowledge!
 
Kai,

Your original recipe includes both chalk and baking soda. I'm interested in brewing this beer as closely as I can, but instead using only pickling lime to increase alkalinity, keeping sodium levels significantly lower. This chalk approach generally follows the advice of Martin Brungard, and I think even derives from some of your experiments regarding solubility of chalk.

Do you stand by that water profile, including the high levels of sodium? Or would you change anything?

I'm leaning toward an "Amber Malty" profile like Brunwater, when comparing your previous chloride and sulfate levels.

55 ppm Ca, 5 ppm Mg, 10 ppm Na, 55 ppm SO4, 65 ppm Cl, enough bicarbonate to reach a reasonable mash pH. You recommend a slightly higher mash pH (5.5-5.6) given the decoction mashout, correct? Or since this is a double-infused decoction, 5.4 would be reasonable? This differs significantly from your recipe, so I'd appreciate any feedback.

I didn't want to PM you in case other people were wondering the same things.
 
Just kegged my latest batch of this last night. It was pretty clear, but not as much as I'd like. I think a week in the keg should take care of that.

Smelled and tasted awesome! Can't wait till its carbed up.

Thanks again Kaiser!
 
lockwom said:
Your original recipe includes both chalk and baking soda. I'm interested in brewing this beer as closely as I can, but instead using only pickling lime to increase alkalinity, keeping sodium levels significantly lower. This chalk approach generally follows the advice of Martin Brungard, and I think even derives from some of your experiments regarding solubility of chalk.
Click to expand...

The recipe is what it is. I checked my notes and I have even added chalk and baking soda to the sparge water. It can be argued that those two salts should be omitted from the sparge water, but I was following a purity law philosophy that if any water treatment is done it is done to all water. Technically chalk doesn't conform with the purity law unless it is dissolved with CO2.

Ever since I suggested the idea that pickling lime could be used as an alternative to chalk or even dissolving chalk with CO2 it has gained quite some popularity among some water experts. My experiments have shown that there are issues with chalk but those issues are not regarding flavor but regarding its effectiveness in raising pH. In many experiments I have shown that the utilization of chalk is about 50% and as long as your water calculator or spreadsheet get that correct there is no issue with using chalk. I actually prefer using chalk over pickling lime when it comes to building water. It's safer to handle. My work has shown that there might be a limit by how much chalk is able to raise the pH but we also know that even very dark beers don't need nearly as much alkalinity as we thought they would.

So I'd go with the shown water treatment first and make modifications on subsequent batches.

I don't think that the Sodium level is overly high. It's about the same level they have in Duesseldorf and I doubt that the brewers there remove sodium from their water.

I'm leaning toward an "Amber Malty" profile like Brunwater, when comparing your previous chloride and sulfate levels.
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The recipe comes with a water profile, so why is there a need to take a different target water profile. The water profile I'm giving tries to emulate the Duesseldorf water. With that water you should be able to get the desired mash pH. It worked for me but there might be variations in the base malt DI-water-pH that may throw this off. But you won't know that until you dough in.

Kai
 
I need a little help here. I'm pretty new to all-grain, having only done four BIAB batches before but now I've built a mash tun and am eager to use this recipe on it for the first time. I also just purchased BeerSmith 2 and I'm still learning it. I plugged this recipe into BeerSmith, which is leading to some more questions.

My question is with the decoction steps. Having never done it before, I'm just looking to clarify and hope I'm not going over my head too much since I'm new. I know it's an advanced technique, but I'd like to give it a shot.

Beer Smith 2 gave me the following steps for a five gallon batch after choosing "Decoction Mash, Single" (is that the right option?):
Protein rest - Add 20.48 quarts of water at 136.4F - Step temp 131F - step time 20 minutes
Saccharification - Decoct 5.56 quarts of mash and boil it - Step temp 150F - step time 45 minutes
Mash out - Heat to 169F over 10 minutes - Step temp 169F - step time 10 minutes
Fly sparge 2.83 gallons of water at 168F.

The protein and saccharification steps seem pretty straightforward, but I'm a bit confused on the mash out. How do I achieve the 169F during the mash out? Just add enough strike water until I get the temperature? Or do I do another decoct? When doing BIAB I would just turn up the heat until I got the temperature. And do I really fly sparge? Didn't see that in the original instructions and it seems redundant.
 
Jamie, Kaiser made an excellent video on decocting. It is posted on his website. Unfortunately, I don't have the link handy.
 
Thanks Arturo. I found the videos on YouTube which did indeed answer a lot of questions. My remaining head scratchers have to do with Beersmith 2... specifically why it doesn't give me a volume for the mash out and also why it says to fly sparge (and gives a volume for that). Regardless, I guess I can see a work around. However, I might delay brewing this recipe for now only because I think it would be better to get a few simpler recipes under my belt first.

Post-edit: Aha! I found out what I was doing wrong with Beersmith. Needed to change the label of the mash out step to "decoct". Now it gives me a volume.
 
I brewed this yesterday, violently fermenting away as 1007 usually does.

The double-infusion decoction mashing process took far longer and more equipment juggling than the usual single infusion, but I could detect a noticable aroma change after decocting. I imagine this would be a different beer without those steps. Overall, I'm glad I experimented with a new style, and lookin' forward to it!

Key point: definitely add the 20% fudge factor to the decoction formula. I forgot, and didn't hit mashout temp. So, I only briefly rested before batch sparging to avoid too much conversion at that temp.
 
[/QUOTE]I agree with you--when I bought the book I was hoping it would have more information on the history of what ingredients etc. were used in the styles.....I also don't like that it barely covers any styles. I still use it to get another perspective on common styles I want to try. [/QUOTE]

I think you should check out Radical Brewing by Randy Mosher if you want more on how to make traditional styles from their country of origin. I've read a bunch of beer making books and this one takes the cake, IMHO It is the only brewing book that's taken me more than a day to complete, except Yeast by Jamil Z and Chris White. That one takes a bit to digest the content and figure how to put what I've learned into practice.
 
I just kegged this up after two weeks @ 34 with gelatin. It's a little on the big side vs. the original recipe (1.058 to 1.012), but man, what a beer. The malt nose is something else, and the body and bitterness are perfect (bittered with sterling). I'm entering this in a comp that is the end of the month as a 7A, I'll let you know how it fairs. Thanks kaiser!
 
Just thought I'd share, I've had this naturally carbonating in the keg for quite some time and just sampled it with some friends. The 1007 is spectacular with this grain bill; this is definitely one of my favorite ambers.
 
Kaiser said:
I don't know where he is getting this from. Narziss, German commercial brewing author, mentions that some Alts are brewed from 90% light malt (Pilsner) and 10% Carmel malt (120 EBC). A while ago a very knowledgeable member of a German home brewing forum (at the time he was an apprentice in an Alt brewery) mentioned that the famous Altbier brewery Zum Uerige is brewing their Alt with pilsner, crystal and roasted malts.

How many Alts are using crystal malts, I don't know. But it is definitely not out of style.

Designing Great Beers is a great book to get started. But it's only that in my opinion. The fact that he bases his recipe suggestions on home brewer's interpretations of the style is a major flaw in my eyes. A style should not be defined by the way home brewers interpret it but by the way it is brewed in the country of origin. At least for the traditional styles.

Kai
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Damn straight and American brewery interpretations of German beers should be taken out or the example part of the style guidelines. Great Lakes dortmunder gold is no dortmunder.
 
Justdrumin said:
I had an Alt made by Terrapin that I really enjoyed. So I researched the Alt style some more and with some inspiration from the great Kaiser and his Alt in the recipes forum, I came up with this recipe. I'm still pretty new to doin PM with a few under my belt, so I'm a bit unsure about mash temps and water volume for sparge. I do have a calc for temps and volumes for strike water, but nothing for sparge. I was also considering different yeasts. Kaiser recommended wyeast 1007, I've also seen wlp036 used as well. Any suggestions? I was also thinking about adding a half pound or so of carapils. The guy at my LHBS said he always brews with at least a half a pound. He feels it really makes a very nice, long lasting head. I was thinking about fermenting on the low end at 65*F until fermentation is done, then to a secondary for cold conditioning. From what I've heard an Alt benefits from a good cold condition. Any idea how long and what temp? I'm open to any and all suggestions! Thanks a ton in advance.

Brew Method: Partial Mash
Style Name: Düsseldorf Altbier
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons
Boil Size: 3 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.047
Efficiency: 60% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV (standard): 5%
IBU (tinseth): 39.72
SRM (morey): 15.65

FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - Liquid Malt Extract - Pilsen - (late addition) (43.2%)
2 lb - Liquid Malt Extract - Pilsen (21.6%)
2 lb - German - Munich Light (21.6%)
1 lb - German - CaraMunich I (10.8%)
4 oz - German - Carafa II (2.7%)

HOPS:
2 oz - Spalt, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: First Wort, IBU: 19.43
1 oz - Tettnanger, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 12.33
1 oz - spalt, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 7.96

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 152 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 6 qt
2) Sparge, Temp: 170 F, Time: 15 min, Amount: 6 qt

YEAST:
White Labs - German Ale/ Kölsch Yeast WLP029
Starter: 2L
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 65 - 69 F
Click to expand...

I just posted this in the recipes forum and got no response, so now I'm posting this here. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated. Sorry for the noob questions as well :confused: I'm still very new with making recipes and the mash process. Thanks!
 
Justdrumin said:
I just posted this in the recipes forum and got no response, so now I'm posting this here. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated. Sorry for the noob questions as well :confused: I'm still very new with making recipes and the mash process. Thanks!
Click to expand...

I think that looks pretty good! However, I think the kaiser is making beers that are more authentic than a lot of American breweries. I'm not sure about terrapin (I've heard good things) but I have yet to find an American microbrewed lager and pseudo lager I think tastes authentic.

If you like the terrapin id email them and just ask. I hate to see questions unanswered, so I did my best. I know Kai is a busy man Either way the beer looks good to me. Ive not done any partial mash but I understand the principals and it looks like a good all grain approximation.

Prost
 
reinstone said:
I think that looks pretty good! However, I think the kaiser is making beers that are more authentic than a lot of American breweries. I'm not sure about terrapin (I've heard good things) but I have yet to find an American microbrewed lager and pseudo lager I think tastes authentic.

If you like the terrapin id email them and just ask. I hate to see questions unanswered, so I did my best. I know Kai is a busy man Either way the beer looks good to me. Ive not done any partial mash but I understand the principals and it looks like a good all grain approximation.

Prost
Click to expand...

Thanks!! I actually finally had someone respond to my other thread. From what I understand my recipe was just about dead on with a few tweaks I had something that could be very authentic, with the help of the great Kai. I totally understand he's a very busy man. I do understand what he makes is probably way more authentic than anything in the us. Which is EXACTLY what I was wanting. I find myself liking more and more of the European style brews that don't use a lot of crystal and let the much better aromas of different malts shine through. I have been trying a lot more imports, with the help of a co-worker from the UK, and I am very pleased with the European styles. Don't get me wrong, I love plenty of American styles, but trying some imports made me fall in love with more traditional "old" style of brewing.
 
looking for a partial mash recipe for Kaiser Alt. New to putting together recipes, still in the learning process.
 
A buddy and i brewed this exactly one week ago. Everything went as planned. I pitched a one liter starter of wy1007 into about 68° / 1.045 wort. It fermented like a badass for several days at 64°. Upon opening the fermenter for a gravity reading today, I found it like this. It appears from the ring that the cap has fallen back but yet there's still this layer on top. I don't have experience with this strain. Is this expected? I plan to follow Kai's instructions for fining, but not without consistent SG readings. Today's reading was ~1.013. Right on track with the recipe. I'll check again tomorrow. Taste is good with a dry body and a good malt and roast flavor. Great recipe!

1390609429434.jpg
 
Give the bucket a couple twists. Sometimes the yeast stick together in the krausen and won't fall out until its broken up.
 
FTR, that worked. Thank you. Any suggestions on how long the gelatin should sit? Two weeks?
 

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