Debate area

To start with I know life isn't fair and sometimes it really sucks...

I am wondering why you have the Debate Forum for only the paying members? When you know that there are others that would like to be able to use it so they won't get chewed out for using the wrong area?

Not all of us can manage the cost to be a paying member and still make their wine or beer...

dracothered said:

To start with I know life isn't fair and sometimes it really sucks...

I am wondering why you have the Debate Forum for only the paying members? When you know that there are others that would like to be able to use it so they won't get chewed out for using the wrong area?

Not all of us can manage the cost to be a paying member and still make their wine or beer...

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You really think $25 a YEAR is a hardship. I Think if you can't make that payment, you certainly can't make beer.

When did that start?

beerman1957 said:

You really think $25 a YEAR is a hardship. I Think if you can't make that payment, you certainly can't make beer.

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I didn't pay anything.

$25 will buy a batch of beer, cover for a club, a nice meal, many things. I'm 23, I wish I had $25 in my hands right now.

beerman1957 said:

You really think $25 a YEAR is a hardship. I Think if you can't make that payment, you certainly can't make beer.

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I agree.

dracothered said:

To start with I know life isn't fair and sometimes it really sucks...

I am wondering why you have the Debate Forum for only the paying members? When you know that there are others that would like to be able to use it so they won't get chewed out for using the wrong area?

Not all of us can manage the cost to be a paying member and still make their wine or beer...

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I can assure you there is no discussion about wine or beer in the debate forum.

$25 is very little to give back in relation to what you've gathered in information on this site. I would have paid $50 honestly. There are more perk(ies) than just the Debate forum you get as a paid member to the site. Happy Brewing, now just pay the $25 and come argue crap with us!

MyNameIsPaul said:

$25 is very little to give back in relation to what you've gathered in information on this site. I would have paid $50 honestly. There are more perk(ies) than just the Debate forum you get as a paid member to the site. Happy Brewing, now just pay the $25 and come argue crap with us!

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Well at this time money is tight...

dracothered said:

Well at this time money is tight...

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Been there, rolled coins for that. It's late, and I've had a few, so please excuse the judgmental a-hole thats about to come out...

If you can't afford $25 bucks, you shouldn't be brewing. Hobbies come in dead last in financial priorities. I understand that it's stress relief and therapeutic for some, but if you're tight on money now it's not going to get better by tossing money into a fermenter. It's a HOBBY. Food, Shelter, and Lights (or insert your own financial burdens here) are priority #1 to me and my loved ones.

Brewing is a great hobby, and you should brew your ass off if able to. If not, take care of your priorities first and then brew. it's way more rewarding.

ok- thanks for the rant. Yes, I know I'm a judgemental pr*ck and don't know your situation, but tonight, I'm 6'6", 300 lbs and a huge internet commando!

Wow, let's slow down a bit here. There is no reason to judge a person by how much he or she spends on brewing. Let's consider that participating in these forums does NOT constitute actually being able to brew.

Suppose you were flat broke. Suppose that because you were flat broke you could NOT brew beer. Suppose that you still wanted to LEARN about brewing for when you DID have a few $$ in your pocket and can afford that bag of grain, and a few ounces of hops.

HBT is STILL a great place to learn about brewing and preparing for when you CAN actually brew. Lord knows I would like to brew more often (though for me it's not the money, it's the time).

So lighten up on the guy.

Anyway, I imagine the reason we don't allow non-paying members in the debate forum is to prevent drive-by flame posts. If you are in there and debating on any of total crap topics, then you have paid good money (or pocket change, depending on your lifestyle and income) and have something invested in being there. It makes a good pressure vent for regulars who simply enjoy bashing each others' beliefs. And it leaves the rest of the site "clean" for those of us who really dislike that mentality.

There is NOTHING going on in there that's any different from any of the other sites online where you can argue.

If there were no benefits for paying members, how would the forum turn a profit?

Homercidal said:

Wow, let's slow down a bit here. There is no reason to judge a person by how much he or she spends on brewing. Let's consider that participating in these forums does NOT constitute actually being able to brew.

Suppose you were flat broke. Suppose that because you were flat broke you could NOT brew beer. Suppose that you still wanted to LEARN about brewing for when you DID have a few $$ in your pocket and can afford that bag of grain, and a few ounces of hops.

HBT is STILL a great place to learn about brewing and preparing for when you CAN actually brew. Lord knows I would like to brew more often (though for me it's not the money, it's the time).

So lighten up on the guy.

Anyway, I imagine the reason we don't allow non-paying members in the debate forum is to prevent drive-by flame posts. If you are in there and debating on any of total crap topics, then you have paid good money (or pocket change, depending on your lifestyle and income) and have something invested in being there. It makes a good pressure vent for regulars who simply enjoy bashing each others' beliefs. And it leaves the rest of the site "clean" for those of us who really dislike that mentality.

There is NOTHING going on in there that's any different from any of the other sites online where you can argue.

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Thank and personally I didn't take offense to his bashing though I could have. For me money is tight and I have to make choices on what I spend my extra money on when I have it. At this time it isn't the extra perks of being able to debate my beliefs on this site. I can learn about wine making and maybe some day look in to brewing beer also. When I have the extra cash I can make a gallon batch of some type of wine or buy ammo.

The only reasons I paid to become a premium member was so that I could give back to the site that has helped me not only make better beer, but a few good friends as well.

That and my inbox size.

The forum with the "premium content" was just an added bonus...

dracothered said:

Thank and personally I didn't take offense to his bashing though I could have. For me money is tight and I have to make choices on what I spend my extra money on when I have it. At this time it isn't the extra perks of being able to debate my beliefs on this site. I can learn about wine making and maybe some day look in to brewing beer also. When I have the extra cash I can make a gallon batch of some type of wine or buy ammo.

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It's ok to not be a premium supporter, and you shouldn't be pressured to become one. That's not what this forum is about.

There ARE some additional forums for premium members, but that's more of just a perk than an exclusive thing.

There are plenty of places on the internet to debate politics, religion, and other controversial topics. The reason that we even have a debate forum is because during the last election our 'no politics ever' rule was hard to enforce because of so many strong feelings. At that time, the debate forum was started, to allow those conversations to continue without forcing everyone (me included!) to have to see it.

Our rule has ALWAYS been no politics or religious debate in the forum. The Debate Forum is the only place where it is allowed, and even I don't go in there.

This forum is for homebrewing, but most of us genuinely like each other so we do have some chit chat threads. The brewing threads, at the top, are for brewing talk only and off-topic chatter is not allowed in those technical forums. If we want to "chat", we have to move to the general chit-chat area.

I think the forum needs to be "safe" from snarky political comments and remarks about my religious beliefs. I think everyone should feel welcome here and not have to risk having their faith ridiculed. That's why we don't allow those comments, period. There are many other places on the internet to do this, and I think it's good that this is NOT one of them.

Yooper said:

I think the forum needs to be "safe" from snarky political comments and remarks about my religious beliefs. I think everyone should feel welcome here and not have to risk having their faith ridiculed. That's why we don't allow those comments, period. There are many other places on the internet to do this, and I think it's good that this is NOT one of them.

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Plus 1,000,000,000

I do regret the fact that we can no longer block the forum from our view. It was so nice to be able to forget that place even existed. Just even seeing the argumentative topic titles, to me, is bad enough.

Revvy said:

Plus 1,000,000,000

I do regret the fact that we can no longer block the forum from our view. It was so nice to be able to forget that place even existed. Just even seeing the argumentative topic titles, to me, is bad enough.

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+1 more. TBH, one of the reasons I DON'T become a paying member is BECAUSE I am blocked from that forum. I'm too tempted sometimes, not being able to get in forces me to stay out.

I understand the reason now and was just asking why it wasn't there for non-paying members so it has a place. I'm not really looking to go there, but if I felt the need to I can't. Also I agree that all of the other areas should be kept friendly.

Though let me ask this if I wanted to make a political statement about how they wanted to outlaw some aspect of home brewing (fictional example), could I do it with out getting it deleted or getting me banned?

Wait, shouldn't this topic be moved to the Debate forum? After all, it is a "debate" of sorts, and I see the words "politics" and "my religious beliefs" mentioned here like 20 times. That must be against the rules somehow!!!

We have discussions about Homebrew and liquor laws all the time. As long as they stay friendly, and don't become debates and arguments they happen, but if it strays into personal attacks, debating or trolling for trolling's sake they usually get shutdown.

Sadly they all often inevitebly happens with human nature, and as you saw yesterday with the thread about the neighbors and how it denigrated into a religious DEBATE, and the thread got locked- many folks can't seem to grasp the difference between civil discourse and what current debate has denigrated into, hate filled and argumentative.

I imagine that would be ok. There are already threads about the legality of home brewing in Alabama.

Revvy said:

many folks can't seem to grasp the difference between civil discourse and what current debate has denigrated into, hate filled and argumentative.

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No it bloody hasn't!!

jsweet said:

Wait, shouldn't this topic be moved to the Debate forum? After all, it is a "debate" of sorts, and I see the words "politics" and "my religious beliefs" mentioned here like 20 times. That must be against the rules somehow!!!

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Talking about HAVING religious or political views and getting into details of what those things are are two different thing. Not once in this thread have I really seen anyone really espousing their beliefs.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

No it bloody hasn't!!

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Yes it has.

I'm still looking for a girl who's into "Sack Relig"! Bada tsh!

Well, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I was a LONG TIME non-paying member. I then decided to spend less than $2.50 a month just to support the forum. I have never thought badly of those that don't because that is their business.

However, with membership there should be some benefits and these benefits are put in place to LURE people into paying, not to keep them away.

One current technique used by many online services is to offer a very limited free FULL membership. I like this marketing because it can let those on the fence see if they like what is offered. After the period is over, you take your chances with the members.

I also understand that times are tough for many.

dracothered said:

I understand the reason now and was just asking why it wasn't there for non-paying members so it has a place. I'm not really looking to go there, but if I felt the need to I can't. Also I agree that all of the other areas should be kept friendly.

Though let me ask this if I wanted to make a political statement about how they wanted to outlaw some aspect of home brewing (fictional example), could I do it with out getting it deleted or getting me banned?

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Yes, of course! EXCEPT, what often happens is this (as an example):

In Wisconsin, they are trying to make homebrewing illegal!

Next post:
That's wrong! Contact your legislature!

Next post:
That's typical for the XXXX party. They are all a bunch of idiots. You'd have to be an idiot to vote for the XXXX party.

Next post:
Screw you! You act like an anarchist! You probably voted for XXXX party! That's why American is so bad. It's President XXX's fault. You're probably a member of XXXXXX religion, too, because you're so stupid.

That's an extreme example, but we've all seen that happen!

We all want to talk about helping out other brewers and keeping/making it legal for them, but we have to be so cautious when we do this. With some common sense and sensitivity, we certainly CAN talk about pending legislation concerning brewing in our areas.

Yooper said:

Yes, of course! EXCEPT, what often happens is this (as an example):

In Wisconsin, they are trying to make homebrewing illegal!

Next post:
That's wrong! Contact your legislature!

Next post:
That's typical for the XXXX party. They are all a bunch of idiots. You'd have to be an idiot to vote for the XXXX party.

Next post:
Screw you! You act like an anarchist! You probably voted for XXXX party! That's why American is so bad. It's President XXX's fault. You're probably a member of XXXXXX religion, too, because you're so stupid.

That's an extreme example, but we've all seen that happen!

We all want to talk about helping out other brewers and keeping/making it legal for them, but we have to be so cautious when we do this. With some common sense and sensitivity, we certainly CAN talk about pending legislation concerning brewing in our areas.

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This is a perfect example. I think that when "you statements" start to get tossed into the mix, it's a downhill slide.

Yooper said:

Yes, of course! EXCEPT, what often happens is this (as an example):

In Wisconsin, they are trying to make homebrewing illegal!

Next post:
That's wrong! Contact your legislature!

Next post:
That's typical for the XXXX party. They are all a bunch of idiots. You'd have to be an idiot to vote for the XXXX party.

Next post:
Screw you! You act like an anarchist! You probably voted for XXXX party! That's why American is so bad. It's President XXX's fault. You're probably a member of XXXXXX religion, too, because you're so stupid.

That's an extreme example, but we've all seen that happen!

We all want to talk about helping out other brewers and keeping/making it legal for them, but we have to be so cautious when we do this. With some common sense and sensitivity, we certainly CAN talk about pending legislation concerning brewing in our areas.

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I know this happens and will happen again on any open forum type site. It is a shame that it does happen too....

dracothered said:

It is a shame that it does happen too....

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As a card-carrying member of the Open Debate on All Internet Forums Party, as well as a devout Seventh Day Argumentatist, I find this statement to be denigrating to both my political and religious beliefs. Close the topic!

The additional features are mostly spelled out in the membership comparison. The free version is very nearly full-featured as far as I am concerned (as far as brewing). That means the BULK of the brewing related information is still freely available to anyone who wants to give out their email address.

The rest is fairly minimal, unless you wish to send lots of PMs without maintaining your inbox. Or if you really like discussing OT BS with friends or arguing with each other in the debate. Plus there is the unmentionable forum with the unmentionable stuff. Good for some, but like the debate forum, there are other, better places to get that stuff online.

I certainly didn't feel like i was missing anything before I signed up for premium.

SpanishCastleAle said:

+1 more. TBH, one of the reasons I DON'T become a paying member is BECAUSE I am blocked from that forum. I'm too tempted sometimes, not being able to get in forces me to stay out.

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Same here. Drama, debate and bullsh*t is what Facebook is for. I come here to learn about brewing and brew-related things, and enjoy the "company" of fellow HBers.

Homercidal said:

Wow, let's slow down a bit here. There is no reason to judge a person by how much he or she spends on brewing. Let's consider that participating in these forums does NOT constitute actually being able to brew.

Suppose you were flat broke. Suppose that because you were flat broke you could NOT brew beer. Suppose that you still wanted to LEARN about brewing for when you DID have a few $$ in your pocket and can afford that bag of grain, and a few ounces of hops.

HBT is STILL a great place to learn about brewing and preparing for when you CAN actually brew. Lord knows I would like to brew more often (though for me it's not the money, it's the time).

So lighten up on the guy.

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Agreed. I didn't think of it that way, I just equate HBT being people who currently brew, and not as an educational hangout for people thinking about getting into the hobby.

My apologies OP, I knew I was being harsh but didn't see it from any other perspective. (that's a really a great thing about the Debate Forum, seeing all the opinions either solidifies your opinions or makes you think twice after seeing others.)

brewmcq said:

I come here to learn about brewing and brew-related things, and enjoy the "company" of fellow HBers.

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You would enjoy their company less in the debate forum. You can safely hang on to your cash.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

You would enjoy their company less in the debate forum. You can safely hang on to your cash.

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Yup, I know. Hence me staying out of it.

Personally, I think politics and religion should be treated like one's penis... don't be waving it around in public or trying to cram it down other peoples' throats.

But.. since I don't subscribe to any of the more popular religious beliefs or political parties, I have very little to add to a debate anyway.

brewmcq said:

Personally, I think politics and religion should be treated like one's penis... don't be waving it around in public or trying to cram it down other peoples' throats.

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Regarding the analogy to politics... except the difference is, decisions I make regarding my penis don't affect the laws that govern 300 million people. Just sayin'. (Though that would be pretty cool if my penis were that important...)

In any case, the claim that people ought to keep one's politics and religion to themselves in general (as opposed to specifically in this forum, which is simply the rules) is in itself a political/religious claim -- different political and/or religious views might conflict with that position. I have some very specific thoughts on that topic, and it's killing me keeping them in right now So we're already verging off into what I now understand to be forbidden territory... Seriously!

brewmcq said:

Personally, I think politics and religion should be treated like one's penis... don't be waving it around in public or trying to cram it down other peoples' throats.

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You were talking to LGI when you made this analogy? What do you think he likes to use to stir his wort with?

Revvy said:

You were talking to LGI when you made this analogy? What do you think he likes to use to stir his wort with?

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Actually, I wasn't... it's something I read somewhere that I post on my FB from time to time when things start getting stupid.. lol

Personally, I can't take the scalding temps, so I use a paddle.. ;-)

Well it looks as if this thread has hit the south bond path and needs to be either cleaned up or locked down.

dracothered said:

Well it looks as if this thread has hit the south bond path and needs to be either cleaned up or locked down.

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ouch! now YOU're hitting on the Southerners???


j/k

Hang Glider said:

ouch! now YOU're hitting on the Southerners???


j/k

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yea, wtf? I'd say this thread went camden