Electric 1.5 BBL Upgrade

So I've decided to go Nano. I've started to build the new rig and figured I would document it here.

Here's the google sketchup I started with:



From there it was time to learn to weld. I bought a really crappy MIG welder to build the frame and got the 55 gallon stainless steel drums of Ebay. 3 for $750 shipped. I've heard of others getting better deals, but its the best I could find at the time.

Here's the rig where it sits right now. Lots left to do. This pic really makes the bottom beam look like its bending.... It doesnt look like that in real life.



And a quick video of the Tippy Dumpy in action. Still need to figure out how to make it NOT swing while I'm brewing.



Some close ups of the hubs I got off a front wheel drive car at a junk yard.




And a comparison pic of my keggle system vs the 55 gallon system. Pour little guy is all jealous of its big brother




And I'll be using 1" tri clover fittings through out.




Thoughts?

Nice work! Are you going to use a herms coil in the HLT? Will you be taking your other system apart or buying all new for this? Can you weld a latch onto the tippy dump to lock it when in use, that shouldn't be too hard.

onthekeg said:

Nice work! Are you going to use a herms coil in the HLT? Will you be taking your other system apart or buying all new for this? Can you weld a latch onto the tippy dump to lock it when in use, that shouldn't be too hard.

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From what I've read of other people going 1.5BBL you really don't need the HERMs to maintain temps. Its so much mass that the temp drop over an hour is like 2 degrees. I'm going to start without it and see what happens.

I will be cannibalizing all the electrical from my old system.

Yeah, I'll figure something out. Shouldn't be too hard. I want 3 positions. Fill, Dump, and upright.

To keep it from swinging you could use a gate latch like this

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Awesome. Good luck on your project!

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I really like the idea of using car hubs. This rig is already looking really nice. Imagine how amazing it'll look when you're done!

What are your thoughts regarding fermentation? For example, source for purchasing the vessels, cooling the vessels, etc.

awesome, just one comment think you will need to beef up the stand when you add water, grains etc... that will be alot of weight added to the stand especially in the center for the Mash Tun. just my $.02

I would really think about adding a set of swivel casters in the middle. if it's not bending now it will be when you get a couple hundred #s of grain and water in the mashtun.

EarthBound said:

I really like the idea of using car hubs. This rig is already looking really nice. Imagine how amazing it'll look when you're done!

What are your thoughts regarding fermentation? For example, source for purchasing the vessels, cooling the vessels, etc.

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Thanks! The car Hubs were cheap. My Dad's idea. He works at the car recycle place. $40 for something I KNOW will hold the weight. For fermentation I'm going to get some 3 BBL plastic conicals and do double batches into them. Cooling them has mme a bit at a loss atm. I'll either put them in the cold room and go ambient, or drop a SS coil down the middle. Fermeneters are the next project before I actually rent a place to start brewing. I want all my equipment good to go before I drop the Money on 3 months of rent I'll never see profit from. Damn Government ....

smoa said:

To keep it from swinging you could use a gate latch like this

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

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Nice off the shelf idea. Thanks. I may have to go this route.

toolboxdiver said:

awesome, just one comment think you will need to beef up the stand when you add water, grains etc... that will be alot of weight added to the stand especially in the center for the Mash Tun. just my $.02

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I know it might not look like it, but the stand is a tank. I'll add support where needed. It's all 1.5" square tubing. I'm not too worried about it. I bought gussets for all the corners which i will most likely install in some places. Besides, I will DEFINITELY be doing a few water tests to make sure everything is safe.

mikelikesit2000 said:

I would really think about adding a set of swivel casters in the middle. if it's not bending now it will be when you get a couple hundred #s of grain and water in the mashtun.

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I bought 8 of them. I have 4 more. I just wanted to get the step in front figured out. I will be adding them. Each kettle is going to weight like 400 lbs when full. It's a lot of weight. 4 casters were rated for enough, but I got the extra 4 to be on the safe side.

rvklein said:

Awesome. Good luck on your project!

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Thanks for all the advice and "Good Luck"s everyone.

I don't know a whole lot about HERMS other than basics, just wondering what you're going to need to do heat that sucker. I assume bigger/more elements? Looking forward to seeing you put this all together, good luck!

hillhousesawdustco said:

I don't know a whole lot about HERMS other than basics, just wondering what you're going to need to do heat that sucker. I assume bigger/more elements? Looking forward to seeing you put this all together, good luck!

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So I currently have a E-Herms. its in keggles. I do 12 gallon boils with my 5500W element at around 60% load for a ROLLING boil. I've talked to other people and done a few calcs. Obviously the more juice I have the faster I can get from mash temps to boil. I guess it depends on my electrical service at whatever building I end up in. Ideally, I will have 3 x 5500W elements in my BK and the same in my HLT. I'm willing to make some concessions on that considering that will have a max amp draw of 137.5 amps. I doubt I'll have it. I may go 3 x 4500 in each. which is more probable at around 112.5 amps. We shall see.

In my garage I will be doing small pilot batches with my 5500w BK element and my 4500w HLT element to test the system out. I just need to remember to mount everything relatively low in the SS drums so I dont need more than 10 gallons to conver the heating elements.

We'll see how that goes .....

My BK is a 55 gallon drum and I make 35 gallon batches. First, I think you will be hard pressed to do a 45 gallon batch in a 55 gallon BK. I use two 4500 watt elements in my BK and HLT because my GFI breaker is 50 amps. When my elements need replaced, I think I will change to a 4500 watt element and a 5500 watt element. I can bring 50 gallons of water to a boil with two 4500 watt elements but it takes a while. I think you could easily get by with two 5500 watt elements but I would prefer three 5500 (or 4500) watt elements. I never run the HLT and BK at the same time so I use the same PID and SSRs to control both. This greatly reduces the cost of the control panel and rewiring your load center.

Should have grabbed the brakes and calipers when you grabbed the hubs!

A gate latch would be your best bet, should be available at any Farm supply

stevehaun said:

My BK is a 55 gallon drum and I make 35 gallon batches. First, I think you will be hard pressed to do a 45 gallon batch in a 55 gallon BK. I use two 4500 watt elements in my BK and HLT because my GFI breaker is 50 amps. When my elements need replaced, I think I will change to a 4500 watt element and a 5500 watt element. I can bring 50 gallons of water to a boil with two 4500 watt elements but it takes a while. I think you could easily get by with two 5500 watt elements but I would prefer three 5500 (or 4500) watt elements. I never run the HLT and BK at the same time so I use the same PID and SSRs to control both. This greatly reduces the cost of the control panel and rewiring your load center.

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Thanks for the info. I'll have to figure out the biggest batch I can do without boil overs. I will need to make as much beer as possible, cuz even at this size I think i'm going to be brewing a lot to keep up with demand, or at least I hope so.

Gunfighter04 said:

Should have grabbed the brakes and calipers when you grabbed the hubs!

A gate latch would be your best bet, should be available at any Farm supply

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Haha. Good one. That would have been an interesting set up.

I start with 43-45 gallons of wort at the start of the boil for a 35 gallon batch. If you start with 50 gallons of wort and evaporate 10-15% - you will end up with a little more than 40 gallons.
I would also consider how you are going to clean the BK. You may want to make a tippy/dumpy for the BK as well. If I knew a really good SS welder, I would have a 4" triclamp welded in the bottom of the BK. You could hose out the hops into a 5 gallon bucket and set up a CIP system with a sump pump. Trust me, if you plan on brewing alot, you will definitely want a way to easily clean your BK.

stevehaun said:

I start with 43-45 gallons of wort at the start of the boil for a 35 gallon batch. If you start with 50 gallons of wort and evaporate 10-15% - you will end up with a little more than 40 gallons.
I would also consider how you are going to clean the BK. You may want to make a tippy/dumpy for the BK as well. If I knew a really good SS welder, I would have a 4" triclamp welded in the bottom of the BK. You could hose out the hops into a 5 gallon bucket and set up a CIP system with a sump pump. Trust me, if you plan on brewing alot, you will definitely want a way to easily clean your BK.

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Wow, I guess i wasn't thinking I would get that much evaporation. It makes sense. Bummer.

I don't think the BK will be that hard to clean. Every kettle will be bottom draining. I use pellet hops. I usually clean my current one with a hose and some gentle scrubbing. I'll be able to disconnect the heating elements and the temp prob very easily due do the tri clover fittings. After that it only weights about 40 lbs, so I can remove it from the frame pretty easily. Im thinking of going CIP for sure. A nice spray ball and some form of cleaner should work well in these drums.

stevehaun said:

My BK is a 55 gallon drum and I make 35 gallon batches. First, I think you will be hard pressed to do a 45 gallon batch in a 55 gallon BK. I use two 4500 watt elements in my BK and HLT because my GFI breaker is 50 amps. When my elements need replaced, I think I will change to a 4500 watt element and a 5500 watt element. I can bring 50 gallons of water to a boil with two 4500 watt elements but it takes a while. I think you could easily get by with two 5500 watt elements but I would prefer three 5500 (or 4500) watt elements. I never run the HLT and BK at the same time so I use the same PID and SSRs to control both. This greatly reduces the cost of the control panel and rewiring your load center.

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I would also recommend building it such that only one kettle can be heated at once. Otherwise (as you've seen) the power needs go through the roof.

You should be able to get away with 50A service, wiring (#6) and parts in the control panel with two 5500W elements (11000W total), assuming you don't have a ton of other things that draw power.

Kal

I think 10-15% evaporation is what most micros shoot for. I use leaf hops. I guess you could just spray the hops right out your side drain. How do you separate the hops from the wort? How are you planning to chill?
I like your idea of using triclovers for the heating element. I wish I had done that.

kal said:

I would also recommend building it such that only one kettle can be heated at once. Otherwise (as you've seen) the power needs go through the roof.

You should be able to get away with 50A service, wiring (#6) and parts in the control panel with two 5500W elements (11000W total), assuming you don't have a ton of other things that draw power.

Kal

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It all depends on what is available at the building I end up at. I will mostlikely set up the rig in close proximity to whatever panel is available (or I pay to be available) inside the building. Who knows.

My concern is that time is my enemy. I have a full time job and have to keep it. My brew days will be Saturday and Sunday morning before opening up the bar for the evening. I'm assuming brew from 8-4 open the place from 4-close. I need to crank a double batch out in 8 hours. Thats about what it takes me on my current set up and I can use both the HLT and BK at the same making it much easier for me to overlap the mash. I'll get it figured out. Hopefully I have access to a 100 amp panel with 2 - 50 amp breakers that I can play with. A 200 amp panel with 3 50 breakers and some 110 stuff would be ideal. I can then use #6 wire from 3 different plugs to feed the elements on different "cuircuits" throughout the panels. The controller for it all is still teh same.

Who knows. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for the advice.

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Given your time plans - I agree with you 100%. You will need to run the BK and HLT simultaneously. As a bare minimum, you will want two 5500 watt elements in both vessels. You may be able to find 60 amp gfi breakers. I know they make 60 amp gfi spa panels.
Anyhow - good luck with your project. Looks like fun but it also looks like a lot of work.

stevehaun said:

I think 10-15% evaporation is what most micros shoot for. I use leaf hops. I guess you could just spray the hops right out your side drain. How do you separate the hops from the wort? How are you planning to chill?
I like your idea of using triclovers for the heating element. I wish I had done that.

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I seem to recall hearing something to the 10-15% range. Its not hard in CO to evaporate quickly if need be.

I'm not sure the heating elements will be on tri clover. But they will have easy disconnects from the panel. I've only seen one person that makes a tri clover to 1" pipe thread and thats Derrin and they are $70 a piece. With 6 elements ...... no thanks. I'll probably just punch holes in teh sides of the kettles like I did on my current rig. Use the gasket and a 1" SS nut. I'd rather CIP it if I can.

For chilling I think I will need a plate chiller or a CFC. I currently no chill. So it will be a switch for me. No chill will not be possible with Plastic fermenters and 35 gallons per batch. It will take days to get down to temp. If I go Plate, hops will be an issue to resolve. CFC might be the better route.

I dont seperate the hops from the wort currently. I just try my best to keep as much as possible out of the fermenter, but I don't think that will be a big deal when I get the conicals. It will settle out and I can just dump the trub. I'll get it figured out. I was thinking of using whole leaf and a big ass hop spider? Or using pellet and dealing with it being in my fermenter like I do now. My Brewery is called "High Gravity Brewing, Inc.". Hops aren't usually a problem and I've never detected any off flavors in my big bold ales.

But its stuff like this that makes test batches a necessity. I'll have 3 months of beer I can't sell....... I'm going to have to have lots of parties.

stevehaun said:

Given your time plans - I agree with you 100%. You will need to run the BK and HLT simultaneously. As a bare minimum, you will want two 5500 watt elements in both vessels. You may be able to find 60 amp gfi breakers. I know they make 60 amp gfi spa panels.
Anyhow - good luck with your project. Looks like fun but it also looks like a lot of work.

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Yeah 2 - 60 amp breakers with 2 - 5500 watts will do it, but damn it will be slower than I would like .... with 11000 watts it theroetically takes 67 minuts to raise 45 gallons water from 50 F to 162 F (Strike Temp) and then from 152 F to 198 F (boiling temp in Aurora, CO) it will take another 28 minutes ....

3 - 5500W takes me to 45 minutes and 18 minutes respectively. 3 would be nice

Yes, heating the water to start your day will be slow but you will be weighing/grinding grains, etc. You can start heating your wort in the BK as soon as the elements are covered. I don't wait long after the sparge to get to the boil. You can top off your HLT after you mash in and then top it off again as soon as your sparge is completed. All that said, three elements would be better.

stevehaun said:

Yes, heating the water to start your day will be slow but you will be weighing/grinding grains, etc. You can start heating your wort in the BK as soon as the elements are covered. I don't wait long after the sparge to get to the boil. You can top off your HLT after you mash in and then top it off again as soon as your sparge is completed. All that said, three elements would be better.

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I totally agree. I usually have my first running boiling before my sparge is done right now. Hopefully I can keep that same timing going into the bigger system.

The nice part in this case currently at least is that I can heat the HLT to sparge temps sooner becuase I wont have a herms coil in it maintaining the mash temp. that should save me a bit of time (or at least give me some extra time to heat water that I might need.)

So I got the gate latches on and I did a water test. I found some beasty gate latches at home depot $11 a piece but they are nice and strong. Well worth the piece of mind. Pics Fixed!







The water test was kinda nuts. I had a buddy come over and we filled all 3 kettles to the top. 165 gallons of water. Stand didnt even creak. I was a happy camper.

I used the tippy dumpy to empty the water out. If it hadn't been night time I would have taken a video. It was awesome. The car hubs worked amazingly well. It only took one person to swing it down and empty it out with over 400 lbs of water in it!!! And thats without an extended handle on it yet. Call me pleased for sure!

Congrats on the progress! Any thought to an instant hot water heater to keep you from having to wait on the heating elements struggling with 52 degree water?

hillhousesawdustco said:

Congrats on the progress! Any thought to an instant hot water heater to keep you from having to wait on the heating elements struggling with 52 degree water?

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Those instant hot water heaters are a great option and it has definitely been something I have been pondering. Again, unfortuantely this comes down to the building I end up in and how much money I have to spend on renovations (i.e. not much). I'm hoping that whatever place I rent was already set up for the restaruant world at the very least and has a hot water heater minimum, boiler if I'm lucky.

Right now I'm trying to decide what part of town I want to open up in. Close to home would be nice, but I'm not sure the money is there in my area. Craft beer is a "nice to have", not a must have. I need an area with some money in their pockets so I can charge them $5+ per pint. Unfortuantely that makes rent go up and takes away from my renovation funds.

Getting a Nano running in the Denver area for less than $10k is proving to be very difficult.

U got a steal on those drums, I havnt been able to find them locally for under $400 apiece

BigBobsBrews said:

U got a steal on those drums, I havnt been able to find them locally for under $400 apiece

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Just keep checking eBay, you'll find some.

Ya but they seem to be all on the east coast. At least the cheap ones.

What are your plans for fermentation? More 55 gallon drums or conicals or something else?

hillhousesawdustco said:

What are your plans for fermentation? More 55 gallon drums or conicals or something else?

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I think I'm going the inductor tank route. 85 gallon plastic conicals with stands. Double batch each day into 1 of them. 4 of them will run me about $1200 shipped. Pretty damn good price per gallon. I've read a bunch on cooling, and if needed, I'll probably throw a stainless coil down the top of it and run some sort of chilled water through it.

For the price I just cant pass them up.

www.tank-depot.com

klyph said:

Ya but they seem to be all on the east coast. At least the cheap ones.

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Yeah I had mine shipped. It cost a lot to do it, but they were pretty cheap from a guy in cincinnati. Shipping to alaska tho ...... ouch $$

Don't forget that most if not all commercial buildings are on 3phase power and thus hot to hot you will only get 208v and not 240volt. This means you will only get about 75% of the rated power out of your heating elements.

I've got a 4700 watt cartridge heater in my kettle but my apartment is on 3phase power so I only get 3600 watts out of it. But that is a good thing as it drops the current down to around 17A and allows me to use a 20A breaker and #12 wire.

Also a 100A 3phase panel can supply 33% more power than 100A single phase panel.

Garak said:

Don't forget that most if not all commercial buildings are on 3phase power and thus hot to hot you will only get 208v and not 240volt. This means you will only get about 75% of the rated power out of your heating elements.

I've got a 4700 watt cartridge heater in my kettle but my apartment is on 3phase power so I only get 3600 watts out of it. But that is a good thing as it drops the current down to around 17A and allows me to use a 20A breaker and #12 wire.

Also a 100A 3phase panel can supply 33% more power than 100A single phase panel.

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Good info. With the way I have things set up it is cheap and very easy to swap out heating elements. again, so much of how I set up the electrical is dependent on how the building is set up. I'll start looking at potential places in the next few weeks, so I'll keep all of this in mind during my search. Thanks!

cruelkix said:

Right now I'm trying to decide what part of town I want to open up in. Close to home would be nice, but I'm not sure the money is there in my area. Craft beer is a "nice to have", not a must have. I need an area with some money in their pockets so I can charge them $5+ per pint. Unfortuantely that makes rent go up and takes away from my renovation funds.

Getting a Nano running in the Denver area for less than $10k is proving to be very difficult.

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I grew up in SE Aurora...went to Smoky Hill HS.....there's plenty of money there....but you really need to decide if you're going the brewpub route or not. In the suburbs, you could have a very successful family establishment that ALSO sells good beer. It's a risk any way you look at it.

OR, you could go the tasting room/distributor route....and just focus on making beer...but it'll be trickier to find affordable commercial space that is easily accessible/pleasing to the average Joe. BUT, you can bring your product to the customer this way, which would overcome the "location" problem.

Either way, thanks for publishing your progress! You're making ME want to go Nano!:rockin:

ScubaSteve said:

I grew up in SE Aurora...went to Smoky Hill HS.....there's plenty of money there....but you really need to decide if you're going the brewpub route or not. In the suburbs, you could have a very successful family establishment that ALSO sells good beer. It's a risk any way you look at it.

OR, you could go the tasting room/distributor route....and just focus on making beer...but it'll be trickier to find affordable commercial space that is easily accessible/pleasing to the average Joe. BUT, you can bring your product to the customer this way, which would overcome the "location" problem.

Either way, thanks for publishing your progress! You're making ME want to go Nano!:rockin:

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SE Aurora definitely has money. I live in central/north west Aurora, which is not the nicest area. My neighborhood is nice, but the surronding area is pretty crapy. Dry Dock has a pretty good handle on the south west side. I think your right, if anywhere in Aruroa I would go south east.

Im definitely going the tasting room/distributor. Distributor is more of a late game plan. Tasting room to me makes the most sense to get started up on the cheap.

On a seperate note: I got the drums back from the welder with all the tricolvers on them and they look awesome. I also had him weld 1" nuts onto the kettles for the heating elements. They work damn well.

And I got the frame all primed up. I'll grab some pics at lunch today. Mechanically its almost done. Electrical shouldnt take me more than a day to run (at least to get to a point that I can test) as the panels will be canabilized from the current rig. Time to come up with a good recipe for a test batch. If all goes well I'll crank out a batch this weekend. :rockin: