I was scolded at LHBS today when I told em I don't usually use a secondary

And he told me I should only primary in a glass carboy, not a bucket. he continued to tell me how I couldnt be making good beer only doing a primary fermentation, and I should be pulling the beer off the yeast cake after two weeks. I typically leave my beer in primary for anywhere between 3 weeks to 6 weeks, depending on what it is. What do you guys think?

If you like your beer then his opinion does not matter. If you like what you are doing then you are doing it well!

yup, i only secondary when i am gonna dryhop

I'd say he's just trying to sell more secondaries and expensive glass carboys. I wouldn't be surprised if he's never even brewed before!

Stauffbier said:

I'd say he's just trying to sell more secondaries and expensive glass carboys. I wouldn't be surprised if he's never even brewed before!

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This I can believe... OR he's using seriously outdated method information. If you're getting solid brews (which I highly suspect you are) then I would tell him that. Or maybe bring in two bottles of what you've brewed, tell him you did one with a secondary and the other long primary and see if he can tell the difference. Of course, I wouldn't bother to rack to secondary for either batch just to prove he's full of it...

BTW, I've stopped dry hopping at room temp. I add the whole hops (in a nylon bag) right before the keg goes into the brew fridge to carbonate and then serve. They get ~2 weeks to infuse their wonder into the brew before going on tap. Then they stay in the keg for the duration. Best dry hop flavor/character I've had is from that mode... :rockin:

Unfortunately most people don't stay up-to-date in their field. I'm sure that was great advice 10 years ago.

Stauffbier said:

I'd say he's just trying to sell more secondaries and expensive glass carboys. I wouldn't be surprised if he's never even brewed before!

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LOL I was wondering about this as I was doing yard work today...

Golddiggie said:

This I can believe... OR he's using seriously outdated method information. If you're getting solid brews (which I highly suspect you are) then I would tell him that. Or maybe bring in two bottles of what you've brewed, tell him you did one with a secondary and the other long primary and see if he can tell the difference. Of course, I wouldn't bother to rack to secondary for either batch just to prove he's full of it...

BTW, I've stopped dry hopping at room temp. I add the whole hops (in a nylon bag) right before the keg goes into the brew fridge to carbonate and then serve. They get ~2 weeks to infuse their wonder into the brew before going on tap. Then they stay in the keg for the duration. Best dry hop flavor/character I've had is from that mode... :rockin:

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I told him my brews were turning out great, and he looked at me like I was from mars. I figured screw it, I like my processes, at least for now...

Personally, I don't think you should be scolded at all about any topic at your LHBS. If it were me, I'd take my business elsewhere. There are plenty of good online vendors that are often cheaper and not rude.

And I usually skip secondaries and ferment in buckets regularly.

I use glass because that is what I have. I have to believe that the secondary is rarely needed, and if I dry hop it is in the keg. If your LHBS keeps insulting it's customers, it will become his failed business.
Jim

I never use buckets, always use secondaries, and think I make great beer. But I have no doubt there are many of you out there who make as good, or better beer using buckets and just primaries.

Everyone does it differently, most people produce pretty good beer. No-one has a right to make any judgement on your beer or procedure unless they know what you do and have tasted the beer you produce.

You care too much of what someone else thinks.

I don't do secondaries any more and will never use a glass carboy. They are too heavy for me and too dangerous.

I have taken a couple of beers to my local LHBS and they were very impressed that I made them (both were my own recipes) after beginning home brewing as recently as last July.

One of my brew buddies is big on the 'old school' techniques. During an argument once, I told him that the Hanseatic League was trading world class beer in Northern Europe in the 13th Century. Catch my drift?

If you asked for the advice well then take it or leave it. If he offered it as a suggestion like "I do ... for my beers." that's cool, too. If he's a know-at-all who habitually lectures his customers he's gonna drive them all off. Is he your only LHBS? Might try another and see if you like the atmosphere better.

Ever meet someone that what they have or how they do something is the best of whatever it is? The only one they have to compare is theirs, but THEY KNOW it is better than anyone elses?

Sounds like you did the other day. Take the advice with a grin, don't try to convince him otherwise (cause you can't), and don't discuss technique at the shop unless someone else is there. It is what it is; move on.

You could really screw with him and tell him you BIAB as well!

Remmber it is beer we are making not prescription drugs or making weapons grade plutonium. Things do not have to be extact and there are many ways to go from point A to point B (as long as point B has a generous pint poured waiting for us).

lylo said:

You could really screw with him and tell him you BIAB as well!

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nice!

I would tell him to go f himself and I would buy everything online. I haven't done a secondary in 3 yrs. I don't use buckets but as long as you are clean and sanitary rock on! I am a proponent of trying to limit the amount of air your beer sees from pitch to glass.

This is just old "conventional wisdom" that is neither anymore. BYO has a recent article that confirms that secondary is unnecessary for most ales. In this article it was also mentioned that leaving your ale on the yeast for up to 6 weeks does no harm.
I used to use glass only and and rack to secondary all the time. I got tired of the cleaning and weight of hauling around fragile glass. I now use buckets for most of my beers, and they are as good as ever. Also, if you are not planning to re-pitch your yeast, you can dry hop in primary after the beer has stopped dropping gravity points. I listen to the Jamil show often, they almost always do a single stage fermentation.

Think of it this way. How do the pros do it? Brew ferment and serve in under two weeks, no secondary there.

Proper yeast pitching rates with healthy yeast and temperature control eliminate the need for secondary fermentation.

In his defense though, People who have been home brewing for a really long time experienced a time when good healthy yeast and fresh ingredients where hard to come buy. A secondary was needed to clean up the beer.

Bsquared said:

Think of it this way. How do the pros do it? Brew ferment and serve in under two weeks, no secondary there.

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Pros do yeast dumps out of the primary within a few days, and use separate bright tanks. So if the concept of "secondaries" comes from anywhere, it's pro brewing.

Problem with imitating the pro's is that we're not anywhere near the scale they are. Issues that they face, we'll never encounter. WE don't have hundreds (or thousands) of gallons of beer sitting on the yeast cake. We also don't need to free up the fermenter for another batch quickly so that we can stay profitable.

I took a tour of a local brew pub last year that has no secondaries, leaves their batches (in 13 bbl conical fermenters) for 10-14 days before it goes to keg. They do partially carbonate in the fermenter, capturing excess CO2 into a tank.

Nateo said:

Pros do yeast dumps out of the primary within a few days, and use separate bright tanks. So if the concept of "secondaries" comes from anywhere, it's pro brewing.

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A bright tank is just that, a place to put the beer and cool it down to freezing or just above freezing the facilitate the precipitation of polyphenols that contribute to chill haze. In addition cold beer can be carbonated at lower pressures, and CO2 is more soluble at lower temperatures.

You guys are too funny. Bout to brew a batch today. IMO transferring to a secondary just runs more risk of infection.



Brew on

There are three possibilities in my eyes: he's trying to sell more expensive equipment, he hasn't read anything related to brewing in 20 years, or he's stupid. I would guess it is number 1 or 2. Probably 1. If it were my profit margin and livelihood on the line, I'd probably steer people to glass carboys too (even though I almost never use them). So, you really can't blame him (too much)...unless he was being a d!ck about it. Then, screw that guy!

PS - I almost never use secondaries, unless I need the larger fermenter buckets for another batch. Then I'll transfer to my 5 gal super-duper-fancy $2.99 Lowe's buckets so I can have the extra 1&1/2 gallons of headspace. The only time I use a glass carboy is if I'm aging something for more than three months, which is almost never.

Airborneguy said:

One of my brew buddies is big on the 'old school' techniques. During an argument once, I told him that the Hanseatic League was trading world class beer in Northern Europe in the 13th Century. Catch my drift?

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Ha!

Like my peeps, the Old Order Amish, I consider zippers a sign of dangerous and god-less modernity and will not brew while wearing pants with zippers. Since all my pants have zippers . . .

Pappers_ said:

Ha!

Like my peeps, the Old Order Amish, I consider zippers a sign of dangerous and god-less modernity and will not brew while wearing pants with zippers. Since all my pants have zippers . . .

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Is elastic evil too? I should've read this thread earlier and saved my money by not buying the carboy and going with a cheaper starter kit.

If there is one thing I have learned over the years, it's that everyone learned from someone/someplace, they have their own method, and they stick to what works.

I use a secondary for two reasons. 1) I like the added clarity. 2) Some of my batches involve dry hopping.

I also use a plastic bucket for primary, mostly because I don't have the space for all sorts of carboys. Buckets stack well

I take advice from my LHBS, but I never take crap attitudes from them.

Does anyone rack into a second plastic bucket for secondary and clarity?

Go postal.

How about this - dry hop in your primary as soon as fermentation slows. Proper yeast pitch/health, temp control and the right hop addition can produce a amazing grain to glass dry hopped ale in < 3 weeks. Old Schoolers will just be getting into their secondary by then. Keg hopping, as previously mentioned, is awesome also. Doubt your LHBS guy would like any of that. Ok, Ok, I got it...use the BIAB line and tell him you are all electric also.

Crazy things the LHBS has told me over spring break:

1. Don't place ANYTHING in your bucket, because it will cause microscopic scratches that will ruin your beer.

2. You need to put check valves on your gas-in lines or they will get full of beer and be ruined.

3. Don't buy the slightly bigger auto-siphon because it will slosh your beer around and oxidize it....he said it should only be used for wine.

When I hear this stuff I think "WTF!!!???" but I say "Oh really! Wow. That's something to think about." Me thinks its their way of upselling, and probably works well on newbs.

HickoryMike said:

Crazy things the LHBS has told me over spring break:

1. Don't place ANYTHING in your bucket, because it will cause microscopic scratches that will ruin your beer.

2. You need to put check valves on your gas-in lines or they will get full of beer and be ruined.

3. Don't buy the slightly bigger auto-siphon because it will slosh your beer around and oxidize it....he said it should only be used for wine.

When I hear this stuff I think "WTF!!!???" but I say "Oh really! Wow. That's something to think about." Me thinks its their way of upselling, and probably works well on newbs.

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Holy cow, I must be nuts because I actually agree with him. Maybe not so much for #3, but it's certainly possible.

#1, yes anything that goes into the bucket (besides beer) can scratch it.
#2, yes, that happens. Not that the lines are ruined, but you could get backflow into the regulator and regulators are expensive!

There is no way backflow could ever ruin a regulator. I have an old regulator with no check valve, accidently hooked the gas up to a carbed kegs out post and proceeded to see beer pour out the regulator. I just took it apart, washed it and put it back together. There is nothing inside the regulator but springs and a rubber diaphram. Nothing beer can harm( unless you leave the beer inside the regulator)

I wasnt even talking to this guy originally, I was looking at the glasses. My buddy who is getting his feet wet brewing was asking him about getting a carboy as I walked up. He asked if he needed one for primary or secondary. (hes using my equipment right now, and buying stuff for himself here and there) I told him I use a bucket for primary, and rarely secondary, unless Im aging, dry hopping, or adding fruit. He asked how long I ferment, and I told him 3-6 weeks depending. He asked me "how is that working out?" I told him its been working great. He then proceeded to tell me how my beer is going to taste like cardboard, and hes sure something doesnt taste right with my brews.


To me he seemed like the know it all type, he kept saying how buckets never seal air tight, and was talking about his dad brewing twenty some years ago.

tsname said:

Does anyone rack into a second plastic bucket for secondary and clarity?

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The drawback to that is oxidation. Because the bucket will usually have a lot of headspace (space above the beerline), that means the beer is in contact with a lot of oxygen. In your primary fermentation in the bucket, that's not a worry, because all the CO2 being produced pushes the O2 out through the airlock and you get a nice bed of CO2 on top of the beer.

If you do secondary, its best to use a fermenter as close in size as possible to your batch, so that the exposure to O2 is limited.

JRems said:

There is no way backflow could ever ruin a regulator.

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Trust me, it can. I learned that one the hard way.

I now have check valves on all five lines.

Yooper said:

Holy cow, I must be nuts because I actually agree with him. Maybe not so much for #3, but it's certainly possible.

#1, yes anything that goes into the bucket (besides beer) can scratch it.
#2, yes, that happens. Not that the lines are ruined, but you could get backflow into the regulator and regulators are expensive!

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Yes, you're insane, but that has nothing to do with the statements above. Agree on both points.

Pappers_ said:

Ha!

Like my peeps, the Old Order Amish, I consider zippers a sign of dangerous and god-less modernity and will not brew while wearing pants with zippers. Since all my pants have zippers . . .

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What, not one pantless brewing joke?!?! I gave everybody a nice fat pitch right over the plate and nothing. Are some things just too horrible to joke about?