SMaSH IPA - Too Much Hops??

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ARLStein

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Hi all,

I am new to brewing.. having gone through 3 extract kits before moving to All Grain, and just finished my 2nd All Grain Brew Day.

I decided to do some SMaSH IPA's to learn the flavor profiles of various grains and hops - primarily Hops at this point, as I got a 50lb sack of Maris Otter I need to work through.

Below is my recipe (5 gallon batch):

120 minute mash at 152°
60 minute boil
OG: 1.066 (dead-on beersmith's prediction)

12lb Maris Otter
1oz Citra - 60 min (whole)
1oz Citra - 45 min (whole)
1oz Citra - 30 min (whole)
1.5oz Citra - 15 min (pellet)
1oz Citra - 10 min (pellet)
1.5oz Citra - 5 min (pellet)
3oz Citra - DH (pellet

:drunk:

I'm not too worried as I realize different people like different types of beer. I for one love off-the-wall hoppy beer... but how much is too much? The IBU's were somewhere around 150 I believe. At the time I realized this may be way too high considering it isn't going to be a very malty or highly alcoholic beer.

What do you guys think??

Thanks in advance!
 
What yeast are you using? That seems like a lot of hops in a 1.066 beer unless the yeast is a low attentuator.

I'm sure it will still be delicious and if its overpowering there's nothing that lessens hop flavor better than time.
 
The purpose of a SMaSH imo is creating a balanced beer between the hops and malts while displaying the best qualities of both. So yes imo, 150 ibu is too much.
 
Short answer: never too much. Long answer: it is too much, because the theoretical threshold of hop utilization is 100 IBUs, and adding any more is basically a waste. Also, research mash techniques, there is no need to mash for 2 hrs, as conversion can take place in as little as 20 minutes (saving you 1 hr and 40 minutes on brew day!). When learning the characteristics of the various ingredients, it is extremely important to take copious notes of what is in it, how you brewed it, what it tasted like like, and what you will do different next time. Sounds obvious, but that process is over 2 months (at least 2 brews).
 
Another quick tip: make a super simple, extremely balanced pale, then split the batch up to dry hop with various different strains. This will save you some time, and you will be able to compare/contrast the various flavor profiles side by side.
 
Damn. Regarding the 2 hour mash, I did not intend to mash for 2 hours - but between multi-tasking and heating sparge water, it ended up at 2 hours - plus the Pens game was on! Also, from what I've read, the longer the mash the higher efficiency - not that you can't mash in 20 minutes, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to mash for 2 hours correct? I've read about some people here mashing overnight?

Anyway, you live and you learn. I did my first AG two weekends ago - went crazy off the bat and tried Biermuncher's Tits Up IIPA - which is went surprisingly well and is fermenting just perfectly so far. Then this Maris/Citra SMaSH..
 
Nanobru said:
Another quick tip: make a super simple, extremely balanced pale, then split the batch up to dry hop with various different strains. This will save you some time, and you will be able to compare/contrast the various flavor profiles side by side.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a really good idea. I need to get some more Carboys and try this... that will ensure the Malt characteristics are exactly the same through the various brews.
 
metal850 said:
What yeast are you using? That seems like a lot of hops in a 1.066 beer unless the yeast is a low attentuator.

I'm sure it will still be delicious and if its overpowering there's nothing that lessens hop flavor better than time.
Click to expand...

Sorry, somehow missed your comment. I pitched a dry pack of Safale 05. I plan on letting these two AG batches age a little... How long would you suggest to let it age if it is overpowering? I guess that depends on how overpowering it is though... :confused:
 
ARLStein said:
Are you saying Citra may be unpleasant as a bittering Hops? I hope not! haha. I would imagine it is a matter of personal preference..
Click to expand...

I had made a rye pale with citra and simcoe and smelled a distinct cat pee smell. Others could smell it and some couldn't. When researching i found others that had the same experience. Still was one heck of a good brew and 5 gals was gone in two weeks. I'd say go for it, if you like the results then no one can tell you otherwise. Cheers!
 
ARLStein said:
12lb Maris Otter
1oz Citra - 60 min (whole)
1oz Citra - 45 min (whole)
1oz Citra - 30 min (whole)
1.5oz Citra - 15 min (pellet)
1oz Citra - 10 min (pellet)
1.5oz Citra - 5 min (pellet)
3oz Citra - DH (pellet
Click to expand...

The others have been helpful, but I thought I would just add a couple of thoughts. First, one of the best ways to gauge how much is "too much" is to look at the SG/IBU ratio. You have Beersmith so that's easy to do- it's right there for you. For most pale ales, a ratio of .600-.800 or so would be great. What that ratio does is compare your OG to your IBUs. A cream ale might be .260, for example, while an IPA might be 1.000. That's the key to a properly balanced beer.

Second, while I don't like citra much, especially by itself, others do. So if you like citra I think you'll get a good idea of the flavor by using it. However, any hops added before 20 minutes from the end of the boil will be bittering hops and not give you flavor or aroma of the noted tropical fruit flavor of citra. I'd keep that in mind for next time, and hop differently. You've basically got three ounces of bittering hops, which may distort the flavor and aroma.

For most APAs, I'd hop like this:
Bittering hops- 1oz Citra - 60 min (whole) (or to get around 25-30 IBUs from this addition)
Flavor hops- 1 oz hops 15 minutes
Aroma hops- 1 oz hops 5 minutes or flame out
Dryhop- 1 oz hops

I'd shoot for about a total of 45 IBUs in a 1.050-1.060 beer. For a higher OG, I'd go a tad higher on the bittering hops.

Edit- after I finished this, I saw the thread title and it's supposed to be an IPA! Sorry about the misundertanding.

For an IPA, I'd hop very similar, but get more IBUs at the 60 minute addition (45-50) and increase the flavor and aroma hops, and increase the dryhopping. I'd probably go this route for most IPAs:


1 oz bittering hops or 1.5 oz, to get to 45 IBUs from this addition
1 oz hops 15 minutes
1 oz hops 10 minutes
1 oz hops 5 minutes
1 oz hops 0 minutes
2 oz dryhops
 
Thank you all for the information! I sure hope my beer doesn't smell like cat pee - my SWMBO would not like that very much haha.

I've heard of a few hops having terrible flavors for the first few weeks and then changing completely to very pleasant flavors once aged a little.

Any suggestions for a particular Hop to match with a Maris Otter SMaSH - for this weekend?
 
I want to do a Willamette smash with maris otter, maybe you could beat me to it. Call it "Have you met Willamette? "
 
Yooper said:
The others have been helpful, but I thought I would just add a couple of thoughts. First, one of the best ways to gauge how much is "too much" is to look at the SG/IBU ratio. You have Beersmith so that's easy to do- it's right there for you. For most pale ales, a ratio of .600-.800 or so would be great. What that ratio does is compare your OG to your IBUs. A cream ale might be .260, for example, while an IPA might be 1.000. That's the key to a properly balanced beer.

Second, while I don't like citra much, especially by itself, others do. So if you like citra I think you'll get a good idea of the flavor by using it. However, any hops added before 20 minutes from the end of the boil will be bittering hops and not give you flavor or aroma of the noted tropical fruit flavor of citra. I'd keep that in mind for next time, and hop differently. You've basically got three ounces of bittering hops, which may distort the flavor and aroma.

For most APAs, I'd hop like this:
Bittering hops- 1oz Citra - 60 min (whole) (or to get around 25-30 IBUs from this addition)
Flavor hops- 1 oz hops 15 minutes
Aroma hops- 1 oz hops 5 minutes or flame out
Dryhop- 1 oz hops

I'd shoot for about a total of 45 IBUs in a 1.050-1.060 beer. For a higher OG, I'd go a tad higher on the bittering hops.

Edit- after I finished this, I saw the thread title and it's supposed to be an IPA! Sorry about the misundertanding.

For an IPA, I'd hop very similar, but get more IBUs at the 60 minute addition (45-50) and increase the flavor and aroma hops, and increase the dryhopping. I'd probably go this route for most IPAs:


1 oz bittering hops or 1.5 oz, to get to 45 IBUs from this addition
1 oz hops 15 minutes
1 oz hops 10 minutes
1 oz hops 5 minutes
1 oz hops 0 minutes
2 oz dryhops
Click to expand...

To be honest, I need to really learn the Beersmith software. I don't have it figured out too much aside from entering recipes and checking the estimated gravities, etc. It doesn't help that half the screen on my lapton doesn't work! Thanks for the information on SG/IBU ratios.. definitely something I will now research.
 
ARLStein said:
Sorry, somehow missed your comment. I pitched a dry pack of Safale 05. I plan on letting these two AG batches age a little... How long would you suggest to let it age if it is overpowering? I guess that depends on how overpowering it is though... :confused:
Click to expand...

Assuming your bottle hop flavor tends to mellow on the order of months. I would say 3 months or more if its really overpowering.

As to another mo smash I would suggest Columbus or amarillo both are awesome!
 
I do bottle.. definitely want to keg at some point, but definitely not there yet. I'll probably taste test a six pack a week after the first 3 weeks in bottles.. then keep the rest and see what a good 3 months do.
 
Hmm.. I have heard good things about Amarillo.. not sure if my LHBS has them though. Maybe I'll go with Amarillo with the Hop Schedule you suggested before.
 
Yooper said:
The others have been helpful, but I thought I would just add a couple of thoughts. First, one of the best ways to gauge how much is "too much" is to look at the SG/IBU ratio. You have Beersmith so that's easy to do- it's right there for you. For most pale ales, a ratio of .600-.800 or so would be great. What that ratio does is compare your OG to your IBUs. A cream ale might be .260, for example, while an IPA might be 1.000. That's the key to a properly balanced beer.

Second, while I don't like citra much, especially by itself, others do. So if you like citra I think you'll get a good idea of the flavor by using it. However, any hops added before 20 minutes from the end of the boil will be bittering hops and not give you flavor or aroma of the noted tropical fruit flavor of citra. I'd keep that in mind for next time, and hop differently. You've basically got three ounces of bittering hops, which may distort the flavor and aroma.

For most APAs, I'd hop like this:
Bittering hops- 1oz Citra - 60 min (whole) (or to get around 25-30 IBUs from this addition)
Flavor hops- 1 oz hops 15 minutes
Aroma hops- 1 oz hops 5 minutes or flame out
Dryhop- 1 oz hops

I'd shoot for about a total of 45 IBUs in a 1.050-1.060 beer. For a higher OG, I'd go a tad higher on the bittering hops.

Edit- after I finished this, I saw the thread title and it's supposed to be an IPA! Sorry about the misundertanding.

For an IPA, I'd hop very similar, but get more IBUs at the 60 minute addition (45-50) and increase the flavor and aroma hops, and increase the dryhopping. I'd probably go this route for most IPAs:


1 oz bittering hops or 1.5 oz, to get to 45 IBUs from this addition
1 oz hops 15 minutes
1 oz hops 10 minutes
1 oz hops 5 minutes
1 oz hops 0 minutes
2 oz dryhops
Click to expand...

+1

In my opinion hop additions between 20-59 minutes are a waste. You're boiling away all the flavor and aroma and you're under utilizing the hops if you're going for bitterness.
 
Ok, so the consensus would be to do bittering hops for the full boil.. then save the rest for flavor (15,10), aroma (10-0) and dry hopping... Amarillo is probably not available to me :mad:
 
Can i add one more thing? I tend to have better hop "fullness" when i first wort hop and then do 15-0 min additions.
 
I actually wanted to do FWH in this SMaSH but forgot - so I added it to the boil for 60 minutes. I'm assuming FWH is a replacement for 60 minute addition?

I read these forums every day and try and learn as much as I can, but sometimes it doesn't matter how much you read, you still forget some. I learn more by actually going through the process.. but this forum is invaluable.
 
Haha, damn.. I'm going to have to get some.. great prices - at least compared to my LHBS. They charge $4.99 for 2oz of most hops.
 
I just Tapped a keg of my 150 ibu beer less than 4 weeks out of brew day and it's great. I did first wort hop though so a little different
 
Ok, now I remember what I was gonna post for you before I got side-tracked with the Amarillo. I posted this last month on another thread:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just did a Vienna / Simcoe SMASH. I'm calling it a VS Imperial 1/2 SMASH. I went (way too) big on the first addition of simcoe 1oz 13.7% / 60min. Then .5oz/15min, .5oz/FO, and .5oz dryhop (I'm at day 3 of 10). Oh, yea this is a 2.5 gallon batch!

So with IBUs at around 120, I took a sip just before pitching and panic'd. At high krausen I decided to add 1lb of cane sugar and 1/2lb clover honey (the only fermentables I had on hand) to help the gravity catch up with that bitterness.

I was thinking to blend it with a light 2-row...but after a taste this evening, the dryhopping is helping and at 1.004 I'm calculating 8.27%ABV. I think with a little time it will work out fine. The Vienna is probably saving me here as it is retaining some maltiness considering the sugar addition and low FG.

I think simcoe/vienna can make for a good SMASH, go for it. I'm going to do this again and change the first addition to .5 oz and the last addition to 1oz and look to hit an OG of around 1.067.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Chamuco; 01-21-2012 at 08:14 AM.

So.......

I dryhopped 1oz 5 days / .5oz of it for 10 days and bottled about a month ago. It's very good but has a hop-bite in the aftertaste that I hope time will heal. Prominent aroma is grapefruit. The added sugar/honey to the primary along w/ dryhopping saved this one from going duck face.

Blending the beer is always an option as well.

Best of luck!
 
Chamuco said:
Ok, now I remember what I was gonna post for you before I got side-tracked with the Amarillo. I posted this last month on another thread:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just did a Vienna / Simcoe SMASH. I'm calling it a VS Imperial 1/2 SMASH. I went (way too) big on the first addition of simcoe 1oz 13.7% / 60min. Then .5oz/15min, .5oz/FO, and .5oz dryhop (I'm at day 3 of 10). Oh, yea this is a 2.5 gallon batch!

So with IBUs at around 120, I took a sip just before pitching and panic'd. At high krausen I decided to add 1lb of cane sugar and 1/2lb clover honey (the only fermentables I had on hand) to help the gravity catch up with that bitterness.

I was thinking to blend it with a light 2-row...but after a taste this evening, the dryhopping is helping and at 1.004 I'm calculating 8.27%ABV. I think with a little time it will work out fine. The Vienna is probably saving me here as it is retaining some maltiness considering the sugar addition and low FG.

I think simcoe/vienna can make for a good SMASH, go for it. I'm going to do this again and change the first addition to .5 oz and the last addition to 1oz and look to hit an OG of around 1.067.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Chamuco; 01-21-2012 at 08:14 AM.

So.......

I dryhopped 1oz 5 days / .5oz of it for 10 days and bottled about a month ago. It's very good but has a hop-bite in the aftertaste that I hope time will heal. Prominent aroma is grapefruit. The added sugar/honey to the primary along w/ dryhopping saved this one from going duck face.

Blending the beer is always an option as well.

Best of luck!
Click to expand...

Sweet! Thanks for the info!
 
Well you should secondary for dry hopping but long term aging in bottle or secondary will lower the hop aroma and flavor. Hoppy brews are best fresh.
 
Hmm.. Ok. I was thinking I would age it to help mellow the bitterness, but I guess losing the flavor and aroma would be a double wammy.. if the flavor and aroma help fight the bitter battle.

Screw it, I'll drink it as it is and report my findings when it's finished. I'm sure if it's bad, I have some friends who would gladly drink some free beer.
 
You also run the risk of oxidation and infection if you secondary for long periods without a decently high ABV. Also take into consideration that a higher amount of hops can impart a grassy aroma and taste. Jeeze i feel like we are nothing but the bearer of bad news.
 

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