Counterflow Chiller Tutorial

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I too am looking at using 1/2" OD copper tubing. Just started to look into it today I see Mcmaster has 3/4" ID garden hoses so I think I will start there.

@Snafu, i think you may run into some flow restriction problems.
 
I plan to try it out this weekend. I have to run vinegar through it anyways, and I need to figure up chiller loss. If it works great, if not, I already have 1/4 tube here. I would just have to redo all the fittings. We'll see.
 
I personally get no chiller loss. I disconnect the line from my keggle and blow the beer out of my pump and chiller. It works well and gives ur lungs a hell of a work out. Chopps
 
Built myself one of these today. Build went well, but I know I'm going to be scared the first time I push a batch through it! Trial runs with water should help ease the anxiety...
 
Built myself one of these today. Build went well, but I know I'm going to be scared the first time I push a batch through it! Trial runs with water should help ease the anxiety...

Get ready for your first sour.

I keed
 
Bout to build mine this weekend, going to convert my homemade 50' IC. I've seen a lot about not being able to source a 1/2 to 1/4 reducer, but alas, Lowes sells a 1/2 to 3/8 reducer and a 3/8 to 1/4 reducer. Will give my feedback after the build.
 
Was a breeze!!! Thanks for all the input from those before me. I'd post pics, but a little embarassed by the solder job
 
Just built one out of 1/4" O.d. copper tubing. (I had it lying around so it was free) Takes a while for gravity to push out the full 5 gal of wort but it does a great job of cooling!
 
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I'm planning on attaching some QDs to the wort input/output. Pressure tested and works like a charm. Again, thanks to all those who've shared knowledge. This is such a great community!
 

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It's been 4 years since Bobby originally created this tutorial and it's still going strong! Thanks Bobby!

I had not soldered before but decided to give this a try. I found a little scotchbrite makes you look like a copper sweating pro.

hardware.jpg
soldered.jpg

I also added a bypass tube with a pinchclamp (clamp not shown in pictures) so I can whirlpool after cooling. It works great at dropping the temp with the bypass closed, then whirlpools sufficiently once the bypass is opened. I added a PVC shutoff valve to the coolant water line to vary the flow so I am not wasting water.

bypass fittings.jpg
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This is probably the best DIY I have done yet to improve my brewing.
 
Shelterpupsbrew: you have a couple of neat ideas worked in there. I may have to copy the water valve.

Does the wort bypass make a big difference?
 
tdogg said:
Shelterpupsbrew: you have a couple of neat ideas worked in there. I may have to copy the water valve.

Does the wort bypass make a big difference?

The bypass works pretty good. The CFC knocks the temperature of the wort down amazingly fast, and sort of starts the whirlpool. Once I open the bypass, the whirlpool really gets going. I would estimate that the flow rate doubles once the bypass is opened. The fittings that I used are a little on the small side, someday I might reworks the chiller to put in a larger bypass.

The water valve works well. I recently integrated the chiller into a brew stand and moved the valve to a remote location that is easier to access.
 
I made one tonight. I have a ball valve for the water in ready to go once I mount it to my rig and know my orientation of the coil. I made mine using the full 50ft of copper and hose. Probably overkill but why not if the material is there.
Hopefully I get a chance to run it this weekend.
Thanks for the info bobby. Saved me some time putting the parts together.

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Bigger is not better in this case. I ended up cutting the 50 ft version down to 25 ft. The flow was just too slow. The 25 ft version cools from 197 input to 62 deg output.
A little better than my 30 plate chiller.
 
Ok after scanning through most of this thread i have one question. when using a CFC with a pump why are people complaining about being able to cool the entire batch while whirl pooling? is it the flow rate does not allow for an adequate whirlpool? or is it the recirculation through the CFC back into the boil kettle impedes the cooling process?

who out there uses a CFC and whirlpools with a pump? can i get an honest opinion of how this works in this set up? i can always whirlpool after i chill if flow rate is the issue.
 
Bigger is not better in this case. I ended up cutting the 50 ft version down to 25 ft. The flow was just too slow. The 25 ft version cools from 197 input to 62 deg output.
A little better than my 30 plate chiller.

hmmm i made a ~60' version of this. I haven't tried it yet. You found that reducing the length speed up the flow? I guess I didn't expect that because it was still being reduced to 3/8.

BTW if people are thinking of building this i would recommend lubricating the copper with k-y lube. I tried the water and soap thing but it didn't work out so hot.
 
cobolstinks said:
hmmm i made a ~60' version of this. I haven't tried it yet. You found that reducing the length speed up the flow? I guess I didn't expect that because it was still being reduced to 3/8.

BTW if people are thinking of building this i would recommend lubricating the copper with k-y lube. I tried the water and soap thing but it didn't work out so hot.

I found that the flow was down to a trickle. This was just testing with water. Even at 25 ft it seems to be about a third of the normal flow rate. Which is fine because I am cooling. Still only takes about 5 to 10 minutes to cool 5 gallons down to 70 deg recirculating.
It is 3/8 OD. I am not sure what the actual inner ID is. I am sure the flow would be better if you had 3/8 ID.
If I make another I think I would try 1/2 copper and a 3/4 hose. Maybe someone can chime in on their flow rates at this size.

I used the soapy water and it was very easy. I have a 60 ft shop so I was able roll everything out straight and flat. Slid right in with no binding.
 
kickrjason said:
Ok after scanning through most of this thread i have one question. when using a CFC with a pump why are people complaining about being able to cool the entire batch while whirl pooling? is it the flow rate does not allow for an adequate whirlpool? or is it the recirculation through the CFC back into the boil kettle impedes the cooling process?

who out there uses a CFC and whirlpools with a pump? can i get an honest opinion of how this works in this set up? i can always whirlpool after i chill if flow rate is the issue.

I cool using the CFC and a pump while recirculating back to the boil kettle. I abide by the rule that it is better to get the entire volume down in temp quickly, and this CFC does it in minutes. Then I whirlpool for a few minutes and then transfer to the fermenter. The CFC reduces the flow rate too much to get a good whirlpool, so I installed a bypass that gets opened up once the wort is cooled.

image-4197119361.jpg

The picture does not show the pinch clamp that is used to close the bypass, but you can get the idea. You could just disconnect the CFC and run the pump out hose back to the boil kettle for the whirlpool, I just didn't want to have to move any hoses around. Hope this helps.
 
My process is that immediately after the boil I stir hard for about 30 seconds to whirlpool, let it settle for about 8 minutes and then let it drain through my CFC into the fermentation bucket or carboy.....no pump used. Drains out in about 25 minutes max. Is it quicker to recirculate wort with pump to cool it down and then drain or pump into carboy? I just figured with my process it was simple and I was using one less piece of equipment (pump) to touch my cooled wort.
 
bmickey said:
My process is that immediately after the boil I stir hard for about 30 seconds to whirlpool, let it settle for about 8 minutes and then let it drain through my CFC into the fermentation bucket or carboy.....no pump used. Drains out in about 25 minutes max. Is it quicker to recirculate wort with pump to cool it down and then drain or pump into carboy? I just figured with my process it was simple and I was using one less piece of equipment (pump) to touch my cooled wort.

I use to drain the hot wort through the CFC into the fermenter without a pump. This also worked pretty well and was ready for yeast in approx 20 minutes. It's a good way to go if you are not using a pump. The advantages that I have found using the pump/recirculating method is that I get a better cold break (clearer beer) and the finish product retains more hop aroma and maybe more hop flavor.

The recirc/whirlpool/transfer process takes 20-25 minutes depending on how much whirlpool you want.
 
I am thinking of making a CFC based on this great guide and have noticed there is a big difference in price for hoses that are made specifically for high temperatures. How necessary is it to have a hi-temp hose? It seems to me like the hose isn't actually touching the hot wort, but rather has the cool water barrier. Has any measured the cooling water temp after it has gone through the chiller to see how hot it gets?
 
I use an el cheapo hose with no problems. My hose doesn't feel overly warm when cooling. But one thing I see now that I didn't when I built mine is if/when my hose dies I would be pretty screwed on a easy fix the more expensive hoses probably last longer
 
bwoodworth said:
I am thinking of making a CFC based on this great guide and have noticed there is a big difference in price for hoses that are made specifically for high temperatures. How necessary is it to have a hi-temp hose? It seems to me like the hose isn't actually touching the hot wort, but rather has the cool water barrier. Has any measured the cooling water temp after it has gone through the chiller to see how hot it gets?

I recirculate the last 20 to 30 minutes of the boil to kill off any bad stuff. So the hose gets pretty hot with no water running thru it.
I used the good year high temp hose. 50 ft was $35 at home depot. Not much more than the other stuff.
 
Oh I forgot to mention I santatize mine by circulating star san for 20 mins that's probably why mine doesn't get as hot. I never run liquid through mine without the cooling water running
 
Mine's pretty much the same as everyone else's. I used MoreBeer's 1/2" male quick disconnects for my wort in and out.

I had some problems sweating the reducer the inside tube passes through. I guess I did not get it cleaned well or applied enough flux. I had to take it back apart and resweat those joints. I cleaned the crap out of them and slathered the flux on to make sure there was still plenty once it was slid into place. No leaks :mug:

 
thank you bobby m

i just made this tonight. i got 33 ft of the copper for free at work and i bought the rest of the stuff i needed. i just got done testing this with water and it brought 5 gallons of boiling water down to 55 degrees with my 3/8 kettle valve wide open! good thing my other kettle has a half inch valve so maybe i won't hit so low of a temp next time. i goess my ground water is cooler than i thought
 
I debating between this or a 50' immersion chiller. I do not have a valve on my kettle. I typically use a funnel and a mesh strainer. I do not have time right now to DIY so I would either buy this or an immersion chiller. I would need to hook these up to my facet and also use gravity feed my beer through it. Could I use a CFC given considering these things?
 
I debating between this or a 50' immersion chiller. I do not have a valve on my kettle. I typically use a funnel and a mesh strainer. I do not have time right now to DIY so I would either buy this or an immersion chiller. I would need to hook these up to my facet and also use gravity feed my beer through it. Could I use a CFC given considering these things?

immersion chiller for your setup. You could always use the copper later to make of these when you get a valve installed and move to a pump.
 
This thread has been very informative, thank you all for your contributions. I have recently moved to 5 gallon all grain after building a mash tun. I've been cooling thus far primitively with a big plastic tub and ice water. I'm over that situation. So on to my questions!

I've looked at a lot of builds and only seen 1 so far that has bare copper wire wrapped around the wort tube creating turbulent flow. Why don't more people do this? Does it make getting the wort tube in the water hose? Does it restrict the amount of water going through the chiller? If so has anyone tried remedying this situation by using a bigger hose? There has to be a reason why everyone doesn't do this. I would appreciate anyone with any experience to shed some light on this for me.

Thanks again!
 
Update on my cfc. I went ahead with tacking bare copper wire around my 15' 3/8 inch od soft copper. It was very difficult to get it in the hose, I had to use a lot of dish soap and elbow grease, in the future I would look for a bigger hose if possible. Since I had the soft copper laying around already I used it, even though it is quite a bit shorter than most people are using.

It works amazingly, I cooled 5.5 gallons of 215 degree wort to 69 degrees using 58 degree tap water using a gravity fed system. I am very happy with the cooling capabilities of such a short hose.
 
Just wanted to add a word of warning based on experience. Three costly mistakes:

  1. I used a "heavy duty" orange hose from Wal-Mart. It tended to collapse on itself and onto the copper tube as I coiled the final assembly
  2. I coiled the hose/tubing in too small a diameter. I used a keg as a form, and between the hose collapsing and the weak spots described below, this significantly diminished the flow rate
  3. Wanting to increase the thermal conduction area of the copper tube and also space it away from the hose, I soldered a length of 14 ga. copper wire to the outside of the tube in a spiral pattern. While this worked to some extent, I believe it created weak spots (particularly where the wire started and ended) that contributed to kinking

Bottom line, it worked pretty well the first time I used it, even with the reduced flow rate. It cooled extremely well. The second time I used it (last week in 24 deg. weather) I had almost no flow and had to raise my kettle up really high to get it to work. I'm pretty sure I kinked it during transport/cleaning/etc.

I was going to give up and buy a Chillzilla but I've reconsidered. My next step is to cut off the hose and copper tubing, use good hose and a larger diameter, and somehow solder everything back together.

Lesson learned: Follow the tutorial closely and you'll be in much better shape. :eek:

I kinked tube is your enemy!
 
I used scrap 3/8" OD copper water pipe for mine, which would have work hardened horribly if I had straightened it out. Some sections needed annealing before it could be worked at all. As I was coiling it back up I could feel it start to kink here and there, but it seems to have turned out OK in the end.

The only slight boo boo I made was forgetting to flux the outside of the coil before attempting to solder the tee assemblies on. I haven't noticed any pinhole leaks so far.

Here it is on top of my MLT. I went with stainless camlocks for the wort connections and polypropylene camlocks for the coolant lines. I think the red hot water hose is slightly niftier than run of the mill heater hose :)

IMG_1162.resized.JPG


Blog post: http://smokedprojects.blogspot.com/2013/02/cool-and-curly-counterflow-chiller.html#
 
I'd have to add a pump to recirculate back into the kettle. Not something I want to do at this point in time.

Still, there is the question of how much time is too long for the kettle to sit there before it's cooled. Any numbers?

I am going to add a spigot to my kettle and have thought about going larger, but then realized that my CFC is only 3/8 so that would probably not do me any good. I can chill my wort more than necessary, but I want to add the ability to chill MORE wort faster. I think the only way to do this is to increase the size of the chiller diameter.

Jamil talks about his "whirlpool chiller" which is a recirculating IC system. I get the idea behind it, but again, it seems like a lot more $$ to spend for a few minutes worth of improvement.


this leads into the question I was going to ask.
is there a mathmatical benifit that you can equate to $$$ spent.
3\8 copper and 5\8 Hose. vs. 1\2 copper and 3\4 hose.
I want to make 2 CF chillers and sell the other but wondered if there was any benifit to going bigger in the grand scheme of most of us only doing 5-10 gallon batches.
love the thread and thanks for all the pics and input. I plan to build system using cam locks.
Cheers!.
 
I used scrap 3/8" OD copper water pipe for mine, which would have work hardened horribly if I had straightened it out. Some sections needed annealing before it could be worked at all. As I was coiling it back up I could feel it start to kink here and there, but it seems to have turned out OK in the end.

The only slight boo boo I made was forgetting to flux the outside of the coil before attempting to solder the tee assemblies on. I haven't noticed any pinhole leaks so far.

Here it is on top of my MLT. I went with stainless camlocks for the wort connections and polypropylene camlocks for the coolant lines. I think the red hot water hose is slightly niftier than run of the mill heater hose :)

IMG_1162.resized.JPG


Blog post: http://smokedprojects.blogspot.com/2013/02/cool-and-curly-counterflow-chiller.html#


:D:drunk::ban:


just what I want to build.....
 
this leads into the question I was going to ask.
is there a mathmatical benifit that you can equate to $$$ spent.
3\8 copper and 5\8 Hose. vs. 1\2 copper and 3\4 hose.
I want to make 2 CF chillers and sell the other but wondered if there was any benifit to going bigger in the grand scheme of most of us only doing 5-10 gallon batches.
love the thread and thanks for all the pics and input. I plan to build system using cam locks.
Cheers!.

I could be wrong, but I think this setup (1/2" copper & 3/4" hose) would increase flow of wort from kettle to fermenter, but would most likely decrease efficiency of the total unit. I dont have the math to follow up my thinking, but logic says the following...
1. the larger the inner circuit the less resistance to flow therefore increased flowrate.
2. by increasing the inner circuit from 3/8 to 1/2 you are increasing the total volume of wort inside the 25foot CFC. Now going from 5/8 to 3/4 will very slightly increase the total volume of the outer circuit, the difference is not as significant total mass as raising the volume of the inner circuit. Essentially you would be using about the same amount of coolant volume inside the CFC to cool a larger amount of wort volume, thus the total efficiency of the chiller would not be as good.
3. With decreased resistance and increased flow rate, your wort would be traveling faster through a less efficient CFC.

Keep in mind, this is all from just logic, and not experience...It may not make that much practical difference, but it might.

If you are set on the 1/2" copper you could make a longer CFC to make up for the inefficiency.

With these things in mind, I have thought about making mine with 3/8" copper and a 3/4" hose. This may be the way to go for people who deal with high ground water temps.

All that said...
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this forum, I have learned a lot. After brewing with my shop owner at the store...and experiencing the difference between cooling times with an IC and a CFC, I'll be building one myself. After talking with him, his experience is that 25' is not enough, but 30' really works well (he has high ground water temps from the city lines). I was going to build 2 25' CFC's and sell one, but he convinced me to buy materials for 3x 30' and sell off the other 2. I had to special order the 100' length of 3/8 copper since no local store carried it, and getting a craftsman rubber hose from Sears. All other parts I was able to pick up from HD or Lowes. (stupid me bought the 1/2-3/8 reducers before thoroughly reviewing this feed, but took them back today and got the right ones.) Total cost was about $215 or about $72 dollars each. I went with 1/2 Brass Tee -->1/2" pipe --> 1/2" MPT adapter --> 1/2' FIP to male and female Garden Hose Thread from my coolant ins and outs so it was a little more expensive. I went with a heavy duty rubber hose too, so that added to the cost, but I wanted more durable than cheap.
 
I could be wrong, but I think this setup (1/2" copper & 3/4" hose) would increase flow of wort from kettle to fermenter, but would most likely decrease efficiency of the total unit. I dont have the math to follow up my thinking, but logic says the following...
1. the larger the inner circuit the less resistance to flow therefore increased flowrate.
2. by increasing the inner circuit from 3/8 to 1/2 you are increasing the total volume of wort inside the 25foot CFC. Now going from 5/8 to 3/4 will very slightly increase the total volume of the outer circuit, the difference is not as significant total mass as raising the volume of the inner circuit. Essentially you would be using about the same amount of coolant volume inside the CFC to cool a larger amount of wort volume, thus the total efficiency of the chiller would not be as good.
3. With decreased resistance and increased flow rate, your wort would be traveling faster through a less efficient CFC.

Keep in mind, this is all from just logic, and not experience...It may not make that much practical difference, but it might.

If you are set on the 1/2" copper you could make a longer CFC to make up for the inefficiency.

With these things in mind, I have thought about making mine with 3/8" copper and a 3/4" hose. This may be the way to go for people who deal with high ground water temps.

All that said...
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this forum, I have learned a lot. After brewing with my shop owner at the store...and experiencing the difference between cooling times with an IC and a CFC, I'll be building one myself. After talking with him, his experience is that 25' is not enough, but 30' really works well (he has high ground water temps from the city lines). I was going to build 2 25' CFC's and sell one, but he convinced me to buy materials for 3x 30' and sell off the other 2. I had to special order the 100' length of 3/8 copper since no local store carried it, and getting a craftsman rubber hose from Sears. All other parts I was able to pick up from HD or Lowes. (stupid me bought the 1/2-3/8 reducers before thoroughly reviewing this feed, but took them back today and got the right ones.) Total cost was about $215 or about $72 dollars each. I went with 1/2 Brass Tee -->1/2" pipe --> 1/2" MPT adapter --> 1/2' FIP to male and female Garden Hose Thread from my coolant ins and outs so it was a little more expensive. I went with a heavy duty rubber hose too, so that added to the cost, but I wanted more durable than cheap.


The difference between 25' and 30' is going to be negligble, many people have used 50' CFC's and found their efficiency to be barely better than 20-25' ones.
 
Here's my 33' CFC. Going to make some tweaks though. I'm going to put a faucet on the out port for the garden hose so I can regulate the water flow. Also going to add 1/2-1/4 reducer + 1/2 pipe + 1/2 male adapter to the wort in/out for my camlocks.

ForumRunner_20130727_123952.jpg
 
Does anyone know if there is a good reason to not use reclaimed copper refrigerant line from my old AC unit? We got our HVAC system replaced and the copper from the previous AC is just hanging there unused. Should I be concerned about running precious wort through something that once contain freon?
 
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