Really? WTF Banana again!

Like all new home brewers, I have met with some difficulties with my first beers. Enemy number for me one has been banana esters (smell and taste) due to too high of a fermentation temp or lack of oxy- duh know for sure but I did them all wrong.

So brew number 7, I got my act together and got the temperatures in line (pitch and ferment at an average of 64-66 within the parameters of the yeast). I made a NW Hefe that was looking like it was going to be fantastic! At bottling (2 week ferment) it tasted and smelled perfect. I even opened one bottled a week early and it was looking like it was going to be awesome!

Now two weeks later I opened a bottle and that that goddamn banana scent is back, really? What the hell could I have done... Am I cursed with banana scented beer?

OK... I understand that banana scent is OK with a Hefe but it appeared from out of the blue... And at this point I loath it!

BTW- Used drops to prime, Wyeast 2565, oxygen for 1.30 min, steady temp, low head space, clean clean clean...

Help!

how are you controlling your temps? I set my carboy on my basement floor full of tap water for 2 days once, it was at a steady 64deg... i then brewed a beer, pitched yeast, and set it one the same floor, the next day my temp was at 72deg with a full on fermentation. moral of the story, fermentation creates its own heat. Never brewed a hefe so i cant help you with the yeast strain, but i do know if you air temp is mid 60s it WILL ferment higher than the room temp. I now ferment in a large Tub with water in it. In the summer I add frozed water bottles to keep things cool. sorry about the bad beer. I couldn't drink the first 5-6 beers I brewed. I feel your pain and frustration

How warm did you keep the bottles while carbing? Could have been made during that ferment if it was done warm.

Isnt a hefe suppsed to taste like a banana. Isnt that the point. I like the banana and clove flavors. But if you don't like banana don't brew a hefe.

lol yea i would complained at the next batch. for this one, you not only get no sympathy from me, but i might just digitally highfive you for awesome bananas in your hefe

That banana character is very common in German wheat beers. Wyeast's website mentions that the Kolsch yeast (2565) has some fruity esters of an ale yeast, I guess banana is one of those fruity esters. It's been my experience that fermenting in the upper temperature ranger of a yeast produces more of the fruity esters, 64-66 is closer to the upper range for this yeast (56F-70F). Also, is 64-66 the temperature of the beer or the ambient temperature? If it's the ambient temperature, the beer fermented even warmer, typically by 5-10 degrees.

I would say if you enjoy a wheat beer, but don't want the banana character, that you may want to try an American Wheat beer.

This guy's in your beer,

I've brewed Hefes, but I've never used 2565 Kolsch yeast.

Nothing in the description of this yeast mentions banana, but it does call for cool, almost lager-like temps.

Make sure your temps are actual fermenter temps and not ambient.

If you want to brew a wheat beer without any banana use 1010 Am Wheat. This is what I use for SWMBO's Honey Wheats. No banana or clove at all..

Pez.

My stout and my Belgian ale both smelled like bananas for the first few weeks in bottles. After 1-2 months in bottles that banana smell was gone!

uncommonsense said:

Isnt a hefe suppsed to taste like a banana. Isnt that the point. I like the banana and clove flavors. But if you don't like banana don't brew a hefe.

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This.

I fermented a Dunkelweizen at 68 (measured on the outside of the Carboy) and I didn't notice banana esters until I made pancakes with it.

How are you aerating your wort? I swirl the wort for about 15 minutes before pitching.

Wyeast's writeup on 3068 says that overpitching can eliminate banana esters. You might have to experiment with your pitching rate.

Also, and I don't know how much this really affects the beer, but it's traditional to have the pitching temperature and the fermentation temperature of a hefeweizen add up to 30C.

What are the bounds of that rule? Presumably I can't pitch at 30 and ferment at 0. Is it ok to pitch at say 20 as long as it's brought down to 10 quickly enough?

So, to summarize for the OP:

Check your temps again. Make sure that fermentation temp isn't higher than you think it is.

Check your yeast strain.

Check your yeast pitch rate. If you are using liquid yeast, make a starter!

Also possible, though not likely - are you using plastic to ferment in? Is it possible that you have some contamination that you can't clean out?

TomBrooz said:

What are the bounds of that rule? Presumably I can't pitch at 30 and ferment at 0. Is it ok to pitch at say 20 as long as it's brought down to 10 quickly enough?

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The bounds would be the recommended fermentation temperature range of the yeast. As it applies to weizen-style beers, you wouldn't ferment at 10 because it's too cold.

homebrewdad said:

Check your yeast pitch rate. If you are using liquid yeast, make a starter!

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Not making a starter can cause the banana flavor? My first 2 brews both have the banana flavor, one is an European Bock and the other is an Oberon clone (american wheat). I assumed it was high fermentation temps but I did it in the basement and temps werent toooo high...

davekippen said:

Not making a starter can cause the banana flavor? My first 2 brews both have the banana flavor, one is an European Bock and the other is an Oberon clone (american wheat). I assumed it was high fermentation temps but I did it in the basement and temps werent toooo high...

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Many yeast strains will produce more fruity esters if they are stressed. If you are underpitching - most often due to not making a starter - then the yeast have to work harder, and are indeed stressed.

Several Belgian beers are intentionally underpitched, as the ester creation is desired in those styles.

This may not be your issue, but a healthy starter would remove one more variable from your equation.


Also... what is "not tooo high"? Your actual fermentation temp is 5-10 degrees higher than ambient temp when fermenation is active. If you are already at the high end, fermentation is probably pushing your temp above the advised range. This could be your banana.

The ambient temps have been between 60-65 so Im sure the internal temp has been higher but I didnt think even that was high enough to cause a lot of off flavors. I did not make a starter in either beer and one was a liquid yeast. Guess I need to learn how to do that!!

davekippen said:

The ambient temps have been between 60-65 so Im sure the internal temp has been higher but I didnt think even that was high enough to cause a lot of off flavors. I did not make a starter in either beer and one was a liquid yeast. Guess I need to learn how to do that!!

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If your ambient is 60-65, your fermentation temp is anywhere from 65-75. If the high end is the case, you are defintiely into ester territory with a lot of yeasts.

Starters are stupidly easy to make, even though they sound scary. Boil 1/2 cup of DME in 2 cups of water (scale this up for larger starters). Cool it and pitch your yeast. Put some foil over the top and shake it nicely.

That's it.

Your fermentations will start quicker, be more vigorous, and have a better chance of finishing completely and fermenting cleanly.

You see pics of people with awesome glass vials and such for starters... I use sanitized sweet tea jugs from the grocery store. I'll get me a glass deal eventually, but for now, these work great.

Thats awesome instruction. SO much easier than I thought!!! If I want to culture yeast from the bottom of beer bottles, can I use the same technique? Boil up some "wart" and pour the bottoms of a few bottles in there???

Sorry to hijack the original thread!

davekippen said:

Thats awesome instruction. SO much easier than I thought!!! If I want to culture yeast from the bottom of beer bottles, can I use the same technique? Boil up some "wart" and pour the bottoms of a few bottles in there???

Sorry to hijack the original thread!

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Yep, that's how it works. To use bottles, you have to step it up a time or two - i.e. let your bottle yeast ferment out, then make a new starter, pitch your yeast in. Do a search on the forum, there are threads on how to do starters specifically from bottles.

But yeah, starters are waaaay easier than maing beer. Those pictures with stuff out of science labs tend to scare people off.

A dry wheat yeast I use that does not have a strong banana smell or taste is the Danstar Munich if you are looking form some more subtle esters. Either that or stick with an American Wheat yeast that should not have any fruity/spicy esters.