Bru'n water

A decarbonation by boiling calculator and a decarbonation by lime calculator will be coming in a future version. Its on the list. Another component is to add the Brit's CRS in the acid and water additions calculator.

FWIW cjb, there are conversions online if you look. I have a scale that will get down to grams but I must admit I just use a 1/2 teaspoon measure. After using the teaspoon to load up the gram scale a bunch of times the numbers were always close enough and my scale isn't very accurate anyway. The ones from memory (the only ones I've used frequently are):
1 tsp CaCl = 3.4g
1 tsp Gypsum = 4g
1 tsp Epsom = 4.5g

mabrungard said:

A brewer does not need to worry about what the actual pH in the mash is at its typical mashing temperature. That pH is actually 0.2 to 0.35 units lower than what you would measure at room-temperature. But, its difficult to measure the mash pH at mash temperature and its very hard on the pH meter. Therefore, the industry has settled on measuring and evaluating mash pH based on its room-temperature measurement. A sample is taken from the mash and cooled to room-temp before pH measurement. As AJ has mentioned previously, numerous texts and articles mention mash pH ranges, but they sometimes fail to mention that these are based on their room-temp pH measurement. These authors fail to mention it since its a generally accepted method and procedure that they apparently feel does not need mention.

The desirable room-temp pH range for a mash is roughly 5.2 to 5.8, but most brewers tighten that to between 5.3 and 5.5. Bru'n Water includes numerous mentions throughout the instructions, the calculation sheets, and the Water Knowledge section that all pH measurement is at Room Temperature.

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I started reading Gordan Strong's Brewing Better Beer this week and he refers to mash pH readings AT mash temp. From the book on page 34:
"The mash pH should be in the 5.2 to 5.5 range with a target of about 5.3. Note that mash pH is measured at mash temperatures, not cooled. If you cool the mash, the pH will read about 0.35 higher than at mash temperature."

I find it odd that he not only uses pH readings at mash temps, but he also uses roughly the same range (not the range offset by .35). Why is that?

novafire said:

I started reading Gordan Strong's Brewing Better Beer this week and he refers to mash pH readings AT mash temp. From the book on page 34:
"The mash pH should be in the 5.2 to 5.5 range with a target of about 5.3. Note that mash pH is measured at mash temperatures, not cooled. If you cool the mash, the pH will read about 0.35 higher than at mash temperature."

I find it odd that he not only uses pH readings at mash temps, but he also uses roughly the same range (not the range offset by .35). Why is that?

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The problem with all of those "optimal ranges" is that they're vague. "Optimal" for what?

From Briggs et. al. (these pH values are at room temp if followed by a W, at mash temp if followed by an M):
Shortest saccharification (dextrinization) time 5.3 m±5.7 w
Greatest extract obtained 5.2±5.4 m?
Greatest extract from a decoction mash 5.3 m±5.6 m?
The most fermentable wort 5.1±5.3 m?; 5.4±5.6 w?
Mash impossible to filter <4.7
alpha-Amylase most active (+ Ca2+) 5.3 m±5.7w
beta-Amylase most active 5.1±5.3 (4.7?)
Maximum yield of PSN 4.4±4.6 m; 4.9±5.1w
Maximum yield of formol-N 4.4±4.6 m, 4.9±5.2w
Maximum protease activity (depends on substrate) 4.3 m; 4.6±5.0 m?
Maximum phytase activity about 5.2m
Carboxypeptidase activity maximal 4.8±5.7

So if you're going to make a claim about "optimal mash pH" it really depends on what type of beer you're making. And if you wanted to get REALLY fancy with your multi-step mashing, you could alter the pH at each step. For instance, let's say you do a step @140 for beta-amylase, you could have that step be @5.1-5.3, then heat and alkalize the wort to 158* and 5.3-5.7pH.

Gordon screwed the pooch with that statement. That is odd since he had information from me and AJ. The bottom line is that the range of pH's that Nate quotes above from Malting and Brewing Science is measured at room temperature, not mash temp.

I know that both AJ and Kai have scratched their heads about the .35 unit offset that is quoted in Malting and Brewing Science. They cannot duplicate it and they say it appears to be more like 0.2 units.

mabrungard said:

The bottom line is that the range of pH's that Nate quotes above from Malting and Brewing Science is measured at room temperature, not mash temp.

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Martin, are you saying that all of the pH values quoted in Briggs were actually measured at room temp? Are the M/W notations wrong?

I just started trying to use this program, and have a problem. In the Water Profile Adjustment Calculator, I didn't want to select one of the listed profiles, but wanted to set my own values for the desired mineral concentrations. I thought that selecting User Custom would allow me to do that, but I when I try to enter a mineral value, I get a message that I can't change a protected cell. Note - I'm using Open Office - same problem if I run the .xls or convert to .ods.

DeafSmith said:

I just started trying to use this program, and have a problem. In the Water Profile Adjustment Calculator, I didn't want to select one of the listed profiles, but wanted to set my own values for the desired mineral concentrations. I thought that selecting User Custom would allow me to do that, but I when I try to enter a mineral value, I get a message that I can't change a protected cell. Note - I'm using Open Office - same problem if I run the .xls or convert to .ods.

Click to expand...

Revised water profile information is not entered at the Desired Water Profile line. You have to scroll down the sheet and you will find a large table with the water profile information. All of those cells are editable to what ever you prefer. The only recommendation is that you make sure your water profile balances with respect to cations and anions.

Nate, I did mis-speak regarding the temperatures. I even had it annotated in my copy of Briggs that the temps are at 'mash temp'. Oops.

mabrungard said:

Nate, I did mis-speak regarding the temperatures. I even had it annotated in my copy of Briggs that the temps are at 'mash temp'. Oops.

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Thanks for clearing that up for me. I really appreciate the work you're doing.

mabrungard said:

Revised water profile information is not entered at the Desired Water Profile line. You have to scroll down the sheet and you will find a large table with the water profile information. All of those cells are editable to what ever you prefer. The only recommendation is that you make sure your water profile balances with respect to cations and anions.

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Thanks - I saw the table, but just assumed it was for reference and didn't try to change anything.
I think I did find a very minor glitch - if you choose to acidify sparge water with 10% phosphoric acid instead of 88% lactic, it seems to calculate the amount correctly (seems plausible, anyway), but the adjustment summary sheet still specifies lactic.
I think I'm going to like this program!

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd bandwagon on this one.

I like to use acidulated malt in the mash (rather than lactic or phosphoric acid) to dial-in the residual alkalinity of the beer to, roughly, the ranges suggested by Palmer while keeping my mash pH in the ~5.2-5.4 range. I haven't quite figured out how to calculate the proper amount of acidulated malt to add in Bru'n Water 1.10.

The only place I found where I can play with acidulated malt is by adjusting the grain bill under the Mash Acidification tab, which allows me to easily dial in the mash pH. So far so good. But no matter how I adjust the acid malt, it doesn't seem to affect the residual alkalinity as reported on water adjustment or adjustment summary tabs, whereas it has a very drastic effect on Kai's spreadsheet (although I don't quite trust that one either, since it shows the same RA for overall water and strike water only, which doesn't make sense, since I am not acidifying the sparge water). It seems like there should be an option for acid malt on the water additions tab, or some other way to determine the RA shift the acid malt produces. Or am I just missing something?

Thanks for any feedback!

There are two sides to the equation...the acids and the bases. The malts always provide the acidity. The water typically provides the base (alkalinity) to balance the mash pH as needed. Adding acid malt is only going to increase the acidity produced by the malt bill. You have to add acid to the water to reduce the RA of the water and would not see an effect on RA from an acid malt addition. But since the increased acidity of the grist consumes more alkalinity from the water, the effect on mash pH is the same.

This is pretty cool, how do you guys think it compares to EZ calculator 2.0 it seems to be a lot more complex.

BeerGuy1000 said:

This is pretty cool, how do you guys think it compares to EZ calculator 2.0 it seems to be a lot more complex.

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I used to use EZ and now use Bru'n...if that is any indication.

Arcane,
RA is only about the water and has nothing to do with the grist. That's why it only shows up on the water page and only changes when you mess with the water. I know Martin already responded but I figured I add my simpleton way of looking at it.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Arcane,
RA is only about the water and has nothing to do with the grist. That's why it only shows up on the water page and only changes when you mess with the water. I know Martin already responded but I figured I add my simpleton way of looking at it.

Click to expand...

The part I don't understand about that (and I'll openly admit my understanding of chemistry is limited), is that acidulated malt is coated with lactic acid (2-3%). When adding this malt to the mash, does the lactic acid not go into solution, just like an addition of pure 88% lactic acid would? I.e. what difference does it make if I add 2 mL of liquid lactic acid to the mash, or, say, powdered lactic acid that happens to be coating, say, 100 g of acid malt?

I am not suggesting you and Martin are wrong by any means, I would just like to understand. Thanks!

BeerGuy1000 said:

This is pretty cool, how do you guys think it compares to EZ calculator 2.0 it seems to be a lot more complex.

Click to expand...

It doesn't compare. EZ is just that, it takes one minute for me to do my water adjustments before a brew. Bru'n is for nerds and geeks, I don't need to spend 15 minutes and page after page just trying to set the program up.

Two totally different options to accomplish the same means. I have no interest in the science side of water, I just want my mash to be dialed in at 5.4-5.5 as quickly as possible.

_

wildwest450 said:

I have no interest in the science side of water, I just want my mash to be dialed in at 5.4-5.5 as quickly as possible.

_

Click to expand...

I feel exactly this way. I pm'ed Martin about his program awhile back and he gave me some reasonable info, but what he and AJ both fail to grasp is that some of us don't have the basic chemistry understanding and they are speaking with another language. I've simply gone to a bit of this and a bit of that in my RO water and my beers come out fine. Previously I was using all sorts of additions and was starting to notice a harsh bitterness, now its gone.

What we need is a Bru'n Water Front End for Dummies!

samc said:

What we need is a Bru'n Water Front End for Dummies!

Click to expand...

We have it, it's called Ez water, and it works fine.


_

ArcaneXor said:

The part I don't understand about that (and I'll openly admit my understanding of chemistry is limited), is that acidulated malt is coated with lactic acid (2-3%). When adding this malt to the mash, does the lactic acid not go into solution, just like an addition of pure 88% lactic acid would? I.e. what difference does it make if I add 2 mL of liquid lactic acid to the mash, or, say, powdered lactic acid that happens to be coating, say, 100 g of acid malt?

I am not suggesting you and Martin are wrong by any means, I would just like to understand. Thanks!

Click to expand...

Because acid malt is part of the malt bill. RA is only a measure of the water and makes no consideration of the malt bill, it's only a measure of the actual water. If you add 88% lactic acid you are adjusting the water and it will change the RA. AFAIK, using the right amounts of 88% lactic acid and acid malt are pretty much equivalent regarding mash pH. Using 88% lactic acid lowers RA; but the malt bill, since it won't have any acid malt, won't have as much acid. Using acid malt will increase the acid in the malt bill; but the RA, since you didn't use 88% lactic acid, will be higher.

You could almost think of it like a see-saw. Water (with it's alkalinity) is at one end and the malt bill (with it's acidity) is at the other end. You can reduce the alkalinity on the water side by adding 88% lactic acid or you can increase the acidity on the malt bill side by using acid malt.

So this is incorrect then?
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/images/d/d9/Acid_and_alkalinity.gif

Technically Arcane, I think it is incorrect. I think that chart is just trying to equate acid malt with other acids. Hopefully Martin can confirm.

Acid malt typically contains somewhere around 2 to 3 percent lactic acid by weight depending upon the maltster. Lactic acid is lactic acid. In this case, the chart provides a comparison of acid malt that contains dried lactic acid and the typical 88% liquid acid. It is a valid comparison although you can't really rely on acid malt to provide a specific amount of acidity as pointed out above. Although the range is small (1%), on a percent difference basis, its huge (dropping by a third or increasing by 50%).

The good thing about using acid malt is that some maltsters use a naturally fermented process to get their lactic acid and that adds more flavor. Whereas the industrially produced lactic is processed and refined and has a much cleaner and one-dimensional flavor. For most brewers, the minor amount of acid that is used in their brewing does not really provide an opportunity for 'flavors' to be percieved.

My preference is for accuracy and repeatability. I use the 88% stuff.

Regarding Arcane's question, the chart is valid. Bru'n Water's method of accounting for acids and bases in the mash includes water and malt. Yes, adding acid malt does reduce the alkalinity and RA of the brewing liquor. Its just that there is no calculation of that prior to adding the malt to the water. The effect on alkalinity reduction is still appropriately reflected in the mash pH estimate.

Thank you for the clarification!

wildwest450 said:

We have it, it's called Ez water, and it works fine.


_

Click to expand...

I'm not sure it does work fine -- EZ water, I mean.

I've been entering comparable info in Bru'n and EZ for the past few brews, and I find that Bru'n water is much more accurate (or at least can predict my mash pH more accurately.) That's not to say there's anything fundamentally bad about EZ (or at least nothing I can specifically identify) but I'm certainly coming to undertand that the time I spend entering the malts into Bru'n is time well spent. No, it's not as quick as EZ -- but in my case, I want accuracy and predictability not speed.

It took me about two weeks to wrap my head around Bru'n (and a couple months to wrap my head around the concept of water chemistry thanks to the 'Brew Science' forum here), but now I find myself (finally!) very much in control of my brewing. My beers are coming out great -- or at least are much more *predictable* -- and it's a matter of fine tuning to taste. A big relief from a year ago when it was hit and miss and I could never figure out why my dark beers tasted okay while my lighter beers never quite came out right.

Actually, the key thing in all of this was the purchase of my pH meter. Even with a water analysis and these spreadsheets, the pH meter was the final piece of the puzzle for me.

BTW -- the one error I see in Bru'n is when I acidify my sparge with phosphoric acid (food grade 85%) the summary page still specifies lactic acid. It shows the correct amount of acid but the label doesn't change from lactic to phosphoric.

Fantastic spreadsheet! Thank you.

When using bru'n water, in the top left corner of the water adjustment page you can select the desired water profile. Is there someway to distinguish between malty, balanced, and bitter? I can guess and have an idea but is there distinct guidelines for each one? I read the part in the instructions about sulfate to chloride ratio but I am still a little confused. I can't seem to find anything like that in the bjcp guidelines.

The BJCP guidelines are not really intended to guide on ingredients and formulation. Its more about the end product's flavor, aroma, and appearance. You won't find a mention of sulfate/chloride or vice versa in the guidelines.

The sulfate/chloride ratio is only applicable at moderate concentrations of sulfate or chloride. It falls apart at low and high concentrations of those ions. The first I saw of the ratio's mention was from Palmer's How to Brew and I understand he picked it up off of the Handbook of Brewing (Priest and Stewart). Its a concept put forward in English brewing.

If you hover your cursor over the SO4/Cl cell in the top right corner of the Water Adjustment sheet, you'll see a table that shows the ranges of the ratio that correspond to very malty through very bitter.

mabrungard said:

The BJCP guidelines are not really intended to guide on ingredients and formulation. Its more about the end product's flavor, aroma, and appearance. You won't find a mention of sulfate/chloride or vice versa in the guidelines.

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Not true. There IS an ingredients section in the guidelines, and it often talks about the water. I just went and checked... first style I looked at (ordinary bitter) says "Often medium sulfate water is used.

hi guys,

I just started to use this calculator and find it really great. What confuses me the most is the fact that, following the instructions in it, I should acidify my sparge water...

I use 80% lactic acid and by now I just used it in the mash, if I had too high ph after adding salts...

Since I have pretty hard water here, the usual amount of it is 9 ml added to 9 gallons of mash water to make it in the desirable range...

I always thought that I might be adding too much of this acid, but I was strictly following the instructions from some other water calculators....

Now Brun's calculator is suggesting I should acidify my sparge water as well with 11 ml more for 9 gallons of my sparge water...

that's 20 ml of 80% lactic acid added to total of 18 gallons of water (mash + sparge)

Isn't it too much?

Can someone tell me what is the flavor threshold of lactic acid - how much can I use without getting the off flavors?

Its not the hardness, its the alkalinity. Is the alkalinity of your water high?

1 ml per gallon lactic acid is likely to have a taste impact in my experience. I seem to recall that the typical taste threshold for lactic acid is around 400 ppm.

mabrungard said:

Its not the hardness, its the alkalinity. Is the alkalinity of your water high?

1 ml per gallon lactic acid is likely to have a taste impact in my experience. I seem to recall that the typical taste threshold for lactic acid is around 400 ppm.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I was writing about the alkalinity.

So you say that 1 ml of lactic is too much per one gallon? So what do you suggest than? The spreadsheet suggests that amount in order to properly acidify my water...

The initial ph of my source water is 7,75.

mabrungard said:

Its not the hardness, its the alkalinity. Is the alkalinity of your water high?

1 ml per gallon lactic acid is likely to have a taste impact in my experience. I seem to recall that the typical taste threshold for lactic acid is around 400 ppm.

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Uhhhh... IF the taste threshold is indeed 400ppm, then 1ml/gal would actually fall short of that anyways.

emjay said:

Uhhhh... IF the taste threshold is indeed 400ppm, then 1ml/gal would actually fall short of that anyways.

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Excuse me, but English is not my native language, so I don't quite understand what you're trying to say?

Is 1 mg/gal too much or is it not?

What's the threshold in mg/gal?

thanks!

400d said:

Excuse me, but English is not my native language, so I don't quite understand what you're trying to say?

Is 1 mg/gal too much or is it not?

What's the threshold in mg/gal?

thanks!

Click to expand...

I just read all 8 pages of this forum. I am a beginning water adjuster and recently tested the water where I will be moving my brewery.

I have the same issue as 400d. He began posting up in page 6 or 7.

I also find, from Brun I need to add 15 ml of lactic acid for a ten gallon batch. My total alkalinity is 259. Does this sound reasonable?

Thanks

Surly said:

I also find, from Brun I need to add 15 ml of lactic acid for a ten gallon batch. My total alkalinity is 259. Does this sound reasonable?

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259 ppm alkalinity is fairly high and the resulting acid dose is going to be large. That dose appears in line with my experience.

I suggest you test that acid addition at a scaled down volume and see if the water taste is not to your liking, say 1.5ml in 1 gal of water. If there is a undesirable taste impact, then I recommend you move to a more flavor neutral acid like Phosphoric acid.

When entering the grains into the mash acidification section does smoked malt affect anything? Should I just enter them in as what they were before they were smoked?

Smoking infuses phenols into the malt. I don't think that affects the acidity of the malt. But I don't know that for sure.

Okay, so I am just spinning up on Bru'n Water, so this thread is very timely to me. Awesome tool - thank you Martin!

To get started, I thought I'd input the Centennial Blonde batch (first AG brew!) I just did last weekend and see how well it predicts the Mash pH I got.

Mash pH measured during brew session: 5.65
Bru'n Water predicted Mash pH: 5.7

So I'm pretty impressed - but not without some lingering questions ...

How can I easily figure out the "grain type" (for input to "Mash Acidification" worksheet) for each item on the grain bill? I scoured data sheets, searched vendor descriptions and made some guesses but I'm not convinced I'm 100% on.

Is there a specific criteria we can follow to easily determine the correct Grain type? If there were some kind of table of malt characteristics or something that would be a whole lot easier than guessing...

philipmeese said:

How can I easily figure out the "grain type" (for input to "Mash Acidification" worksheet) for each item on the grain bill? I scoured data sheets, searched vendor descriptions and made some guesses but I'm not convinced I'm 100% on.

Is there a specific criteria we can follow to easily determine the correct Grain type? If there were some kind of table of malt characteristics or something that would be a whole lot easier than guessing...

Click to expand...

Maybe you already figured this out, but if you roll over the 'Grain Type' column header on that particular spreadsheet, it will show a popup to tell you how to categorize your different grain types.

Hey guys,

any help would be appreciated. Although i have asked for it, i'm not going to hold my breath on receiving a better water report (Service industry in the Netherlands is...lacking to say the least).

I do not have a readin for CaCO3 in my report. does that render the spreadsheet useless? what i have been able to find is
Calcium (Ca) 45.0
Magnesium (Mg) 6.3
Sodium (Na) 61.0
Potassium (K) 0.0
Iron (Fe) 0.0
181.0 Bicarbonate (HCO3)
0.0 Carbonate (CO3)
23.0 Sulfate (SO4)
0.0 Chloride (Cl)
3.4 Nitrate (NO3)

.. entered like this, I get the red flag:
Ion Balance Results
Total Cations (meq/L) 5.42 1.91 Cation/Anion Difference
Total Anions (meq/L) 3.50
Water Report is unbalanced. The Cation and Anion totals should be within 0.5 meq/L of each other

I use the following water report (most words are very similar, and for anything unclear you can do a quick google translate from Nederlands - English):
https://www.waternet.nl/media/634131/wn_bwk_1l_2w.eff.krt.kw0313.pdf

any ideas on what i might be doing wrong?

Brewhemoth said:

Hey guys,

any help would be appreciated. Although i have asked for it, i'm not going to hold my breath on receiving a better water report (Service industry in the Netherlands is...lacking to say the least).

I do not have a readin for CaCO3 in my report. does that render the spreadsheet useless? what i have been able to find is
Calcium (Ca) 45.0
Magnesium (Mg) 6.3
Sodium (Na) 61.0
Potassium (K) 0.0
Iron (Fe) 0.0
181.0 Bicarbonate (HCO3)
0.0 Carbonate (CO3)
23.0 Sulfate (SO4)
0.0 Chloride (Cl)
3.4 Nitrate (NO3)

.. entered like this, I get the red flag:
Ion Balance Results
Total Cations (meq/L) 5.42 1.91 Cation/Anion Difference
Total Anions (meq/L) 3.50
Water Report is unbalanced. The Cation and Anion totals should be within 0.5 meq/L of each other

I use the following water report (most words are very similar, and for anything unclear you can do a quick google translate from Nederlands - English):
https://www.waternet.nl/media/634131/wn_bwk_1l_2w.eff.krt.kw0313.pdf

any ideas on what i might be doing wrong?

Click to expand...

The average chloride content is 74 ppm, not 0. That brings the balance much closer. Be aware that using the averaged values from that summary is not likely to provide a perfect balance. However, I'd say that after correcting the chloride value, the report is good enough for use.

Enjoy!