Hop Pairings: What goes good with Simcoe?

Hello all. I have been a big fan of the HBT forums since I started home brewing in March of 2009, but this is my first time posting a question.

For my first attempt at an all grain, I recently brewed this SMaSH recipe.

8 lbs. Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt
2 lbs. Maris Otter Crystal
.5 lbs. Flaked Barley
1 lbs. Corn Sugar
1 oz. Simcoe (Pellets, 12.2 %AA) boiled 70 min
2 oz. Simcoe (Pellets, 12.2 %AA) boiled 20 min
1 oz. Simcoe (Pellets, 12.2 %AA) boiled 1 min
1 oz. Simcoe (Whole 12.2 %AA) dry-hop
Yeast : Fermentis US-05 Safale (two 11.5g packs)

Brewing notes:
Deathbrewer's stove top partial mash method. Mashed Maris Otter base malt and flaked barley at 155 for 70 minutes; The crystal was steeped in a separate pot due to kettle volume limitation. Sparged mashed grains in bottling bucket with 170deg to bring the total kettle volume up to 6.25 gal. Pre-boil gravity 1.042, post boil 1.055.
+ Primary for 14 days; temp range 60-65F;
+ Secondary for 7d; 1oz dry-hop; same temp
+ Final gravity 1.012
Primed with corn sugar

I was very happy with virtually every aspect of the beer. The Simcoe flavor aroma was up front and glorious, but the grassy notes linger too long in the finish. For my next attempt I want to focus on the hops with the goal of dialing back the grassy finish and replacing it with a dry and cleansing hop bitterness.

While there is an abundance of information on individual hops and their flavor profiles, there comparatively little guidance how to mix and match varieties to achieve a particular flavor profile, which is interesting considering the wide range of flavors that can be found.

So, how would you change the hops ingredients in this recipe in order to get a more traditional hop bitterness in the finish without spoiling that fantastic Simcoe flavor and aroma?

Amarillo and Simcoe are a match made in heaven. One of the best IPA pairings of all time.
I use an ounce of Amarillo @60, an ounce of Simcoe@20, and an ounce of both at flameout.

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I agree- simcoe and amarillo are awesome together.

I mix up .5 ounce of both and add them together for flavor and aroma additions, as well as dryhop with both!

Another vote for Simcoe & Amarillo

Glacier and Simcoe is my favorite

S & A are a great combo! Hit 'em hard at flameout and dryhop!

I've also had excellent results with Simcoe and Centennial.

You are using 3 oz in the flavor additions, anytime you use
a lot of hops in the flavor addition you run the risk of grassy
or vegetal flavors. Hops are in part just leaves and if you
boil a huge amount of green leaves of any kind in water you
will get those flavors.

I try to keep my flavor additions to 1/2 oz, dry hopping 1 oz.
I would in your recipe use the highest AA% hop you can,
like 15% magnum, and use that for 60 min bittering, then
use 1/4 oz Simcoe at 20 min and 1/4 oz at 1 min.

Ray

Simcoe and Amarillo are very tasty. I also like Simcoe with Columbus and Cascade.

You pretty much can't go wrong with Simcoe and any other citrusy American hop.

Have done Simcoe and Amarillo, Columbus, and Centennial. And probably some others I am forgetting right now. All tasty.

Thanks everyone for the great responses. They have been very helpful.

Ray, I really appreciate your detailed response. Using the clean, neutral flavored Magnum as the bittering hop means no clashing of flavor; And reducing the amount of the Simcoe additions for flavoring and dry hopping should eliminate the grassy finish.

509inc: Since Glacier is another fairly neutral flavored hop, it could be worked into the mix without impacting the flavor. Thanks for that tip.

I will likely take Ray's approach on the next batch. If I like the result, I can begin to work in some more flavorful hops, like Amarillo, to give it depth and balance.

Thanks again everyone for your help. Track this thread, because progress reports will be provided.

Simcoe and Columbus... Yumz.

I tend to think a yin/yang approach to dry hopping is a good way to go. Last year I made a ten gallon IPA and split it for dry hopping. My normal dry hops for this are Centennial and Palisade. For the new version I did Simcoe and Palisade, and then Amarillo and Centennial. Our friends were split on which they liked better, but all agreed the original mix is better.

Just like with cooking you want to balance out the flavors, like sweet and sour. Too much of one or the other and it becomes out of balance and less complex. Just like the BU:GU ratio. Every style has an ideal range of bitterness to malt and I believe you can extend this to hop blending. Of course there are no hard and fast rules. Some hops are good soloists, while others are better as part of ensemble.

Simcoe and crystal also work well together. We do a blend of simcoe, amarillo, columbus, and crystal at knockout in a fairly hoppy ipa.

MuddyMo said:

Ray, I really appreciate your detailed response. Using the clean, neutral flavored Magnum as the bittering hop means no clashing of flavor; And reducing the amount of the Simcoe additions for flavoring and dry hopping should eliminate the grassy finish.

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No problem. I don't know exactly how a beer like that would taste.
Magnum is *relatively* clean, but I think a large part is that is
because you don't have to use too much of it to begin with because
it is so high in %aa. For a 30 IBU recipe you might need only 1/4
oz for 60 min. The recipe you gave though came out around
85 IBU, to get that high with 1/4 oz Simcoe 12.2% aa at 20 min
and 1 min, you will still have to use 1.25 oz of Magnum at 15%
for 60 min. If there is anything higher than 15% I would go with
that, because all hops are going to have some flavor if you
use a lot of them. The idea is to use as few leaves as possible
to eliminate the vegetal flavor. You'll just have to experiment.

Ray

Don't forget Chinook!

Simcoe and Amarillo are the Peanut Butter and Jelly of the hop world for me.

Just for comparison, here's a Jamil pale ale recipe with Magnum:

http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/Jamil/Jamils_American_Pale_Ale.html

So he's got about half an ounce of Magnum for bittering, then
a total of 1oz other hops for 10 min and more at flame out.
I think the important thing is not to overload the flavor additions.
But his beer is only about 32 IBU, and I've never made an
85 IBU beer so I don't know what a lot of Magnum for 60
min would taste like.

Ray

My most recent batch was a 2 gallon extract IPA with 0.25oz of both Simcoe and Cascade at 60,10,0, and DH and it turned out really well. Everyone thought it was great, and even some non-beer people enjoyed it.

Simcoe and Chinook with 30% smoked base malt is exquisite

pjj2ba- Your "yin/yang" concept is along the same lines as my thinking.

Simcoe hits me with a strong grapefruit aroma, a nebulous citrus flavor, and a strong resinous pine flavor, which I assume is due to the high total oils.
The suggested HBT forum yang for Simcoe trends towards Amarillo, Cascade, Chinook and Centennial. They are all described as having a strong citrus flavor and pretty high in total oils (according to the hopunion databook: http://www.hopunion.com/hopunion-variety-databook.pdf) which is quite similar to the Simcoe profile, which would seem to be counter to the yin/yang approach.

The hopunion databook doesn't list the Palisades variety you mentioned, but one retail source had this description, which also sounds similar to the Simcoe: "Palisades is a new hop variety from the Pacific Northwest. It has moderately strong bittering, with a grassy, apricot-like aroma that's often described as 'pretty'. Alpha acids generally 6.5 - 8%"

Of course, not all citrus flavors are the same, so an apricot profile might be the perfect compliment to the grapefruity Simcoe. The lower alpha acids might require a greater amount in order to make an impact, which as Ray pointed out, can contribute to the grassy aftertaste I am trying to reduce. I'm also concerned about the total oils, because if they are in the same range as the Simcoe, it might take the resin profile way over the top.

Thanks for the info on your experience. Much appreciated!

MuddyMo said:

The hopunion databook doesn't list the Palisades variety you mentioned, but one retail source had this description, which also sounds similar to the Simcoe

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Palisades is quite different from the Simcoe/Amarillo/Cascade end of the spectrum.

Here's a graph I did of Myrcene levels (responsible for citrus/pine flavors) vs. humulene and caryophellene levels (responsible for spicy or floral flavors) in various hops:

rayg said:

I think the important thing is not to overload the flavor additions.


Ray

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I've always been a believer in the 'hop bursting' technique w/ late hop additions. I unfortunately don't have a link for the technique but if you guys do a search you should be able to find info on it.

Bert1097 said:

I've always been a believer in the 'hop bursting' technique w/ late hop additions. I unfortunately don't have a link for the technique but if you guys do a search you should be able to find info on it.

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It can be done, but it requires some care: not letting the hops sit
too long and with high gravity beers only.

http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.htm

Ray

SumnerH said:

Palisades is quite different from the Simcoe/Amarillo/Cascade end of the spectrum.

Here's a graph I did of Myrcene levels (responsible for citrus/pine flavors) vs. humulene and caryophellene levels (responsible for spicy or floral flavors) in various hops:

Click to expand...

That is one sweet graph. Palisades is now on my radar. Thanks!

There is another HBT forum thread where terrazza post some extensive charts for Hop profiles: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/my-understanding-hops-need-help-84524/

rayg said:

It can be done, but it requires some care: not letting the hops sit
too long and with high gravity beers only.

http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.htm

Ray

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That was some very good info. Thanks for the link.

I used warrior,centennial, and amarillo along with simcoe in an IPA and at first sample it tastes and smells like a damn fruit juice

This is a late addition to the post, but, sure loved the information. I brewed a partial mash Cascade Pale Ale kit that had 3oz of Cascade. Members at my local brew club sing the praises of Simcoe. So I alternated 1/2oz additions of Simcoe and Cascade and saved 2oz of Cascade for dry hopping. It's in the primary now and can hardly wait. Hops aroma drove SHMBO and the 3 Pricesses out of the house. I love my hobby!

crummycook said:

This is a late addition to the post, but, sure loved the information. I brewed a partial mash Cascade Pale Ale kit that had 3oz of Cascade. Members at my local brew club sing the praises of Simcoe. So I alternated 1/2oz additions of Simcoe and Cascade and saved 2oz of Cascade for dry hopping. It's in the primary now and can hardly wait. Hops aroma drove SHMBO and the 3 Pricesses out of the house. I love my hobby!

Click to expand...

I would be interested in knowing how it turned out. I am planning on doing another batch in March. It would be good to get your input.

I made a simcoe/cascade pale ale recently that I just kegged a couple days back. From the hydrometer sample, it tastes nice.

I made a Simcoe/Amarillo IPA a couple days back based on the Alpine Duet IPA (fantastic IPA by the way) and this is primary so I don't have a feel for how it will taste yet but it smells nice through the bubbler.

I think Simcoe will pair up well with most lower alpha hops, and even some higher ones like Columbus. Simcoe is a versatile hop.

just bookmarking

MuddyMo said:

I would be interested in knowing how it turned out. I am planning on doing another batch in March. It would be good to get your input.

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Brewing friend from Minneapolis stopped in on Sunday so I had to break out the thief. A roll of his eyes was all I needed to know. Racking to secondary Monday night, will dry hop on Wednesday and bottle Saturday.

I think this might pair well with Simcoe.

my LHBS has Amarillo that is 11.5% AA right now

I will be doing a simcoe/amarillo combo for my 1st IPA (and first personal recipe)

is one or the other better for bittering, or what about a combo of .5oz of each (pellet) at 60/15/flameout and then dryhopping with .5-1oz of each (leaf)

terrapinj said:

my LHBS has Amarillo that is 11.5% AA right now

I will be doing a simcoe/amarillo combo for my 1st IPA (and first personal recipe)

is one or the other better for bittering, or what about a combo of .5oz of each (pellet) at 60/15/flameout and then dryhopping with .5-1oz of each (leaf)

Click to expand...

They are both allegedly good bittering hops but I haven't used Amarillo for bittering at all and Simcoe only once (and I way overhopped that beer so...). I have about 3/4 lb of each and won't have a problem using up the Amarillo but will prob have this Simcoe around for a looooong time. They're just way too cat-pissy for me.

Irrenarzt said:

I made a Simcoe/Amarillo IPA a couple days back based on the Alpine Duet IPA.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. I checked out the Alpine Duet IPA ratings and they are off the charts. It would be great to hear more about your results... and maybe your recipe?

SpanishCastleAle said:

I think this might pair well with Simcoe.

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Can I haz at flamez-out? Ur iz secundezzer bezt?

great topic...I have some vaccum packed cascade, amarillo(flower) and simcoe hops chillin in the fridge right now. I have been inspired...carry on

terrapinj said:

my LHBS has Amarillo that is 11.5% AA right now

I will be doing a simcoe/amarillo combo for my 1st IPA (and first personal recipe)

is one or the other better for bittering, or what about a combo of .5oz of each (pellet) at 60/15/flameout and then dryhopping with .5-1oz of each (leaf)

Click to expand...

When I do my next Simcoe IPA, I plan to use 1oz of a neutral flavor/high alpha hop (Magnum?) for bittering. The Simcoe and (Amarillo?) will be after the 30 minute mark. I think the 1oz of dry hop Simcoe leaf I used in the last batch made for a grassy finish, so I plan to cut back on that.

MuddyMo said:

Thanks for the input. I checked out the Alpine Duet IPA ratings and they are off the charts. It would be great to hear more about your results... and maybe your recipe?

Click to expand...

I'm in the last week of primary now, plan to dry hop tonight. I dry hop during the last 5-7 days then ramp up temp for a diacetyl rest, then cold crash and keg afterwards.

I can give you a rough feel for the recipe off the top of my head.

14 lbs 2-row
1 lb crystal 40
1 lb carapils

mash at 152 for 60 mins, mash out at 168 for 10 mins, fly sparge at 175.

90 minute boil

1 oz Simcoe 90 mins
1 oz Amarillo 90 mins

1 oz Simcoe 60 mins
1 oz Amarillo 60 mins

1 oz Simcoe 30 mins
1 oz Amarillo 30 mins

1 oz Simcoe 15 mins
1 oz Amarillo 15 mins
1 yeast nutrient
1 whirlfloc

1 oz Simcoe 10 mins
1 oz Amarillo 10 mins

1 oz Simcoe 1 min
1 oz Amarillo 1 min

whirlpool for 15 mins then cool to 65 then pitch starter of WLP001, ferment at 65 F for 14 days, drop temp to 60 for last 7 and dry hop with 2 oz Amarillo. After final 7 days, ramp up to 70 for 2 days then cold crash and keg.

My OG was 1.068, not sure what the FG will be yet.