Conical Question

Trying to decide whether to buy the Blichmann or the Morebeer stainless conical (14 gal version).

I'm interested in being able to lager so the cooling feature of the Morebeer conical is appealing, but Blichmann makes amazing products.

What do those of you who own/use these think?

I am getting ready to move into conicals and have my eye on this. The price seems right, and reviews from the HBT community seem positive.

CoolHandLuke said:

I am getting ready to move into conicals and have my eye on this. The price seems right, and reviews from the HBT community seem positive.

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If conical is 50" tall with an opening of only a 4" tri-cover, how the hell do you clean that thing? Don't get me wrong, I'd love one, just asking about the particulars...

I was pretty much set on buying two triclover brewhemoths. They are heavy duty and made in the USA. I was planning on using a clean in place approach via a spray ball in the 4" triclover. I think it would be easy to clean that way. However, I changed my mind after seeing a pic of the weld connecting the dome top and the body of the tank. Unfortunately, I am back to looking at the Stout conicals...

I'm a fan of clean-in-place solutions - using a pump with cleaning solution/rinse and a rotary spray ball.

djnelson said:

Trying to decide whether to buy the Blichmann or the Morebeer stainless conical (14 gal version).

I'm interested in being able to lager so the cooling feature of the Morebeer conical is appealing, but Blichmann makes amazing products.

What do those of you who own/use these think?

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How are you planning to temp control this?

If I go with the Blichmann I would convert a frig to a temp controlled fermentation chamber.

If I go with the Morebeer version I may get the cooled/heat version, although that option is pretty expensive.

It is $1300 to jacket a Stout conical, Blichmann has no cooling or heating availability, Morebeer is the only manufacturer that offers a temperature controlled FV.

I own a Blichmann 27, and since I brew in my garage (ambient @ 60) I have to heat it in the winter. I used a fermwrap and cut neoprene and Velcro to insulate it. It works but in summer when it is 70 in the garage, my FV gets up in the high 70's and it is impossible to control temperature.

We snagged a 15 gallon one of these off the classified and are loving it so far (2 batches in).

Our first batch we opened the lid a few times to check it out and a wild yeast got in

The second batch was a 10 gallon porter and the entire brew club was there for the brewing and the kegging.

It was dead easy to use for both ends of the process. It breaks up for cleaning in our shower and stores perfectly under the stairs so it stays warm. Since it is plastic it also doesn't weigh a ton, I can move it around all on my own.

I am thinking about doing a mead in it while the hubby is out of town

djnelson said:

If I go with the Blichmann I would convert a frig to a temp controlled fermentation chamber.

If I go with the Morebeer version I may get the cooled/heat version, although that option is pretty expensive.

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The 14 gallon blichmann is too tall and will not fit in a standard top freezer fridge. Just about any brand 14 gallon conical is too tall to fit in a regular fridge. There are some stand up freezers that will fit a large conical but they are impossible to find used so you will need to buy it new. Just add that to your budget along with a controller.

FYI: I'm using a 15.5 gallon sanke keg as a fermenter. It fits in a standard fridge.

Dunerunner said:

It is $1300 to jacket a Stout conical, Blichmann has no cooling or heating availability, Morebeer is the only manufacturer that offers a temperature controlled FV.

I own a Blichmann 27, and since I brew in my garage (ambient @ 60) I have to heat it in the winter. I used a fermwrap and cut neoprene and Velcro to insulate it. It works but in summer when it is 70 in the garage, my FV gets up in the high 70's and it is impossible to control temperature.

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IMHO that is unacceptable. I find temp control essential for making great beer.

stevehaun said:

I was pretty much set on buying two triclover brewhemoths. They are heavy duty and made in the USA. I was planning on using a clean in place approach via a spray ball in the 4" triclover. I think it would be easy to clean that way. However, I changed my mind after seeing a pic of the weld connecting the dome top and the body of the tank. Unfortunately, I am back to looking at the Stout conicals...

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Do you have a link to this pic? what is wrong with the welds?

I found the post

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/brewhemoth-conicals-211245/index22.html#post2617022

The top picture of the weld between the dome top and the body is a problem. One can argue about the definition of sanitary, but IMO, the weld in question does not look acceptable for a fermenter. I think some would also question the weld at the racking port. I like everything else about this fermenter - heavy duty SS, made in USA, triclamps, etc.

Would it be possible to grind the welds smooth, and then polish? Maybe get a dremel in there?

I don't know. You'd be working thru a 4" hole.

I have an early production Brewhemoth with ordered extra TC fittings installed. Yes slight bluing of the inside welds as I posted in the past. My arm with 220 grit emery paper finishing off with 600 wet/dry paper of detailing for an hour resulted in shiny proud welds inside the fermenter with no worries of those so called "nasty bug collecting welds". All are smooth and polished as well as the base metal shine and finish. It's true, welded joints can appear worse than they really are, change the lighting and angles will change good welds to look like crappy welds. I'm critical on everything I own not alone my brewing equipment in general. With one Brewhemoth ferm "detailed" I have no second thoughts on purchasing another as it will also get my detailed touch to please myself.
Feel free to spend over double the dollar amount for more "Bling" of a fermenter then later deal with their large sealing gaskets, BTW my fat arm just reached to the bottom of the Brewhemoth when I was sanding and polishing while detailing. No worries that I can see plus a great price owning a thick walled tank of a fermenter that I can apply 35 psi or higher while fermenting. My observations, take it and weight it. Kodak has my POS camera with cards that failed me as I would of posted my Brewhemoth pictures long ago for all to see.

Glad it worked out (the polishing). I have one on order and have plenty of wet/dry paper. Was thinking of using a dremel to get the lumps off. Don't think I have any bits that would work though. Might have to check the hardware store to see if they have anything that might make the job easier, like a wire brush bit or something like that. Not much torque in a dremel though.

I hit one little lump of a weld I wanted gone (just my style) with the Dremel using a sanding drum a 5 second job then moved forward with 220 then 600 sandpaper. SS dulls paper rather quickly, results are the rewards.
Even the top welds can be polished, i'm no ape with long arms. Only problem I had when reaching deep my upper arm muscles were sore from the sharp edge of the 4" TC opening.
It was a battle to wiggle the arm in to reach in deep, take your time plus use a mag light and check your progress.
Hell I added my own resanded exterior finish to the Brewhemoth's finish, I have future plans with it that has to wait for a while, hell she needs a twin sister.

Copper plating?

Beemer, you might want to passivate after so much action.. I don't know I'm not a guru with that stuff.

I can certainly reach down to the bottom of my fermenter (that also has a 4" TC top) with a green scrubby. In addition to a clean in place solution I use which involves loc-line, quick disconnects, my wort pump (LG), and a cip revolving spray ball, I also do steam sanitizing about every 3rd ferment. I use one of those clothes steamers you see in SkyMall. Just hook it up to my bottom dump and as per my thermowell, the whole thing gets up to 212. I don't care what kind of welds or threads you have then, you'll be fine. I know it's overkill, but I'm surprised that more people don't do this and also worry about contamination.

Least expensive CIP 'revolving' sprayball I've found: $50 - McMaster part 71445T84. You can't use a wimpy pump with the CIP's. They take some ummph for it to be worth it.


(FYI, if you look into this, don't be fooled by the pipe connection, it's british standard and it will seal on 1/2" NPT with a little bit more teflon tape... Other people sell this same one for more money and call it NPT).

Atl300zx said:

Do you have a link to this pic? what is wrong with the welds?

I found the post

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/brewhemoth-conicals-211245/index22.html#post2617022

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Those pics are of my new Brewhemoth. It was just as I received it. It had not been cleaned at all. A little scrubbing and it would look a lot better. The weld in question is at the very top. The Brewhemoth holds more than 22 gallons. A 5, 10 or 15 gal batch will never touch that weld.

I have no worries about the welds on my conical. Mine has been pressure tested to 150 psi! There is a video. Twice the conical for half the price!

Carl:
I agree with every thing you say about the brewhemouth. There are big advantages. I also like the 4" triclover instead of a great big lid with gasket. I'd much prefer a brewhemouth and would reconsider if one can easily clean up the upper weld. I am not worried about the blueish discoloration nor am I worried about the integrity of the weld. I'd love to see a picture of your welds after your clean up.

SankePankey said:

Beemer, you might want to passivate after so much action.. I don't know I'm not a guru with that stuff.

I can certainly reach down to the bottom of my fermenter (that also has a 4" TC top) with a green scrubby. In addition to a clean in place solution I use which involves loc-line, quick disconnects, my wort pump (LG), and a cip revolving spray ball, I also do steam sanitizing about every 3rd ferment. I use one of those clothes steamers you see in SkyMall. Just hook it up to my bottom dump and as per my thermowell, the whole thing gets up to 212. I don't care what kind of welds or threads you have then, you'll be fine. I know it's overkill, but I'm surprised that more people don't do this and also worry about contamination.

Least expensive CIP 'revolving' sprayball I've found: $50 - McMaster part 71445T84. You can't use a wimpy pump with the CIP's. They take some ummph for it to be worth it.


(FYI, if you look into this, don't be fooled by the pipe connection, it's british standard and it will seal on 1/2" NPT with a little bit more teflon tape... Other people sell this same one for more money and call it NPT).

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What is your wort pump?

LG 2-MD-HC. It's a 1/25 HP pump. I couldn't handle anything bigger for my wort pump since my final volume is usually 15 gallons in a 17.5 gallon vessel, so can't splash too much. I get about 5 GPM since I only have 2 ft head. But as a CIP pump, I'd say its on the cusp of being too little power. I got a revolving head cause I thought I'd get more agitation and coverage than a stay in place head. Well, at 5 GPM, it's no pressure washer, although I do get entire coverage (Sanke keg). It certainly revolves well enough, but it's not super strong... I don't know what I was expecting really....

Whatever it is, it should be a standalone solution. You have to let it go for a while if you think you aren't going to have to reach in there anyways to clean caked krauesen off with a green scrubby. Luckily that would be near enough to the top to reach very (with the 4" TC) easily unless you're a big fella.

Unless you need a whopper of a wort pump, too, I would suggest looking into a sump pump or whatever (not necessarily an expensive mag drive pump) for your CIP pump cause you could shoot for higher pressure wash and not get crazy expensive. I may do that in the future, but in the beginning I thought it would be conveinent for sanitizing my wort pump and fermenter at the same time.

Any reason why I might be concerned about starsan or pbw not jiving with the bearings in a sump pump? What about the pbw removing lubricant from the bearing/shaft? So if I go shopping, I should look for a sump pump of AT LEAST 1/10 horse then?

I'm guessing that the top weld is crappy because they had to do it through the opening (as the last weld). If I was them I'd do the polishing/finishing as standard. They'd probably come up with a way to do it more efficiently than I could....

Good question. If you rinse it with water at the end, then I don't see why? I have heard of many folks on the forum doing it with a sump pump and haven't heard anyone having problems.

The revolving head says max 40 PSI, so it will take any pump (within reason) you throw at it, right?

The sump pumps I have on my brewmation are all stainless and plastic and they are used for everything. Mash, HLT recirc - including the PBW and StarSan run (washing kegs). I am actually modding the HLT sink to make a keg washer with the same revolving head. They are also around 5 GPM and probably won't have tons of pressure, but I think having HOT PBW make a big difference, hence doing it in the HLT with the element. I think a bucket heater may be in order for washing the fermenter though, or at least starting with fairly hot water. You are just not going to get all the krausen off before it gets colder without the scrubby.

I'm still really putting it all together, so don't take my word as gold or anything.

SankePankey said:

Beemer, you might want to passivate after so much action.. I don't know I'm not a guru with that stuff.

(FYI, if you look into this, don't be fooled by the pipe connection, it's british standard and it will seal on 1/2" NPT with a little bit more teflon tape... Other people sell this same one for more money and call it NPT).

Click to expand...

No worries as i'll passivate when i'm "finally done" sanding / polishing and playing with the interior.
On the BS (British Standard) thread it should fit better with NPT if you cut oversize threads to begin with or cut off the first 4 to 6 threads before assembly. You should be able to tighten up before bottoming out. That sounded dirty.

Weld with bluing, after polishing, the bottom dump disc weld before polishing.
Crappy photos I must add. I have no fears of these welds as "unsanitary", fermented
in a POS leaking ferm that required a epoxy patch.
More photos of the air lock with racking TC welds all taked from the inside. Carl.

BrewBeemer said:

No worries as i'll passivate when i'm "finally done" sanding / polishing and playing with the interior.
On the BS (British Standard) thread it should fit better with NPT if you cut oversize threads to begin with or cut off the first 4 to 6 threads before assembly. You should be able to tighten up before bottoming out. That sounded dirty.

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Since it's for CIP, I don't care if it drips a teeny bit anyways.... A little more tape works fine to seal at bottom out (or latex, maybe leather too).

StMarcos said:

I'm guessing that the top weld is crappy because they had to do it through the opening (as the last weld). If I was them I'd do the polishing/finishing as standard. They'd probably come up with a way to do it more efficiently than I could....

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I would pay to see the dome welded through the opening.
That's an external weld attaching the top dome to the body, a full penetration weld back gassed.
Without back gassing the welds would look like carbon black burnt toast.

Is it common for full penetration welds to look so junk? I just thought that they were professional welders and might have some sort of jig/automatic wire fed tig or something.

CoolHandLuke said:

I am getting ready to move into conicals and have my eye on this. The price seems right, and reviews from the HBT community seem positive.

Click to expand...

This http://conical-fermenter.com/products/conical-fermenters/ one is also a good choice. I have the 7.3 and find it excellent. The ownwer is also great to work with, I've had occassion to order extras from him, and his service is second to none.

SankePankey said:

Beemer, you might want to passivate after so much action.. I don't know I'm not a guru with that stuff.

I can certainly reach down to the bottom of my fermenter (that also has a 4" TC top) with a green scrubby. In addition to a clean in place solution I use which involves loc-line, quick disconnects, my wort pump (LG), and a cip revolving spray ball, I also do steam sanitizing about every 3rd ferment. I use one of those clothes steamers you see in SkyMall. Just hook it up to my bottom dump and as per my thermowell, the whole thing gets up to 212. I don't care what kind of welds or threads you have then, you'll be fine. I know it's overkill, but I'm surprised that more people don't do this and also worry about contamination.

Least expensive CIP 'revolving' sprayball I've found: $50 - McMaster part 71445T84. You can't use a wimpy pump with the CIP's. They take some ummph for it to be worth it.


(FYI, if you look into this, don't be fooled by the pipe connection, it's british standard and it will seal on 1/2" NPT with a little bit more teflon tape... Other people sell this same one for more money and call it NPT).

Click to expand...

I picked up one of these rotating spray balls, thanks for posting about it. I'm using a 1/6 HP pump and it seems to do the job. I wouldn't hesitate to get at least a 1/3 HP pump. Easily adaptable to a conical CIP system.

I'd say that's doing the job extremely well. I don't get near that kind of action out of my 1/25 hp LG 2-MD-HC wort pump, but it's good enough for Jazz.

The video makes it look like it's spraying harder than it is. I can see a 1/3 hp pump working like the video makes it look.

dstar26t said:

The video makes it look like it's spraying harder than it is. I can see a 1/3 hp pump working like the video makes it look.

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I am emulating your design somewhat and will be using the same plastic CIP nozzle from McMaster-Carr. I stumbled across an interesting article from a professor who built a CIP system for the food services industry with the same nozzle. I emailed him with some questions about its performance. He was kind enough to give a thorough and helpful response. One highlight from the email was with respect to the 1/3 HP pump I am using (and its insufficient PSI).

"Based on the data given in McMaster, the pump must supply at least 4.5 gpm at 20 psi. Other possibilities given are 6.3 gpm at 40 psi, and 7.8 gpm at 60 psi. The higher the pressure, the more effective the cleaning action (from water-jet impingement). I went to the Superior Pump Company web site (www.superiorpumpco.com) and found a pump curve for a similar (not the exact same) pump at Superior Pump 92330 1/3 hp sump pump according to the given pump curve, the maximum pressure the pump can provide is 10 psi (or 25 feet of water, as shown on the curve). Not nearly enough. Another potential issue with this pump is temperature. It may not be able to handle hot water. You might be able to use the sump pump in conjunction with a booster pump, like this one from Northern Tool (Wayne Stainless Steel Sprinkler Booster Pump — 720 GPH, 1 HP, 1in., Model# PLS100 | Booster + Sprinkler Pumps | Northern Tool + Equipment)."

I've read several posts where the GPM and HP of various pumps are discussed, but very little about PSI. It would seem that PSI is an important factor for these CIP balls/nozzles, considering that is the only thing that is given in terms of a rating for them.

What do you guys think?

ocluke said:

I am emulating your design somewhat and will be using the same plastic CIP nozzle from McMaster-Carr. I stumbled across an interesting article from a professor who built a CIP system for the food services industry with the same nozzle. I emailed him with some questions about its performance. He was kind enough to give a thorough and helpful response. One highlight from the email was with respect to the 1/3 HP pump I am using (and its insufficient PSI).

"Based on the data given in McMaster, the pump must supply at least 4.5 gpm at 20 psi. Other possibilities given are 6.3 gpm at 40 psi, and 7.8 gpm at 60 psi. The higher the pressure, the more effective the cleaning action (from water-jet impingement). I went to the Superior Pump Company web site (www.superiorpumpco.com) and found a pump curve for a similar (not the exact same) pump at Superior Pump 92330 1/3 hp sump pump according to the given pump curve, the maximum pressure the pump can provide is 10 psi (or 25 feet of water, as shown on the curve). Not nearly enough. Another potential issue with this pump is temperature. It may not be able to handle hot water. You might be able to use the sump pump in conjunction with a booster pump, like this one from Northern Tool (Wayne Stainless Steel Sprinkler Booster Pump — 720 GPH, 1 HP, 1in., Model# PLS100 | Booster + Sprinkler Pumps | Northern Tool + Equipment)."

I've read several posts where the GPM and HP of various pumps are discussed, but very little about PSI. It would seem that PSI is an important factor for these CIP balls/nozzles, considering that is the only thing that is given in terms of a rating for them.

What do you guys think?

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Did you end up getting that Wayne pump? That is one I've been looking at and it seems ideal for my uses as long as it can stand up to the heat and chemicals. The manual definitely says no chemicals but so does pretty much any other pump that a homebrewer could afford.

Bokonon said:

Did you end up getting that Wayne pump? That is one I've been looking at and it seems ideal for my uses as long as it can stand up to the heat and chemicals. The manual definitely says no chemicals but so does pretty much any other pump that a homebrewer could afford.

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Just wanted to throw this info out here for anyone else searching about the Wayne PLS100 pump. I asked the company about temperature and restricting the input/output to 1/2" tubing.

Here is their response:

The pump could work with water up to 120Degrees Fahrenheit.

The greatly restricted ½” suction you propose will probably cause damaging cavitation and at a minimum restrict the output of the pump. I suggest you try to use 1” intake pipe or hose.

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