So who's worked in their main electrical panel?

charlestonsailing said:

Taco are you saying you think you could handle 1000 amps for a brief instant?

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Short answer is possibly, because that's essentially what happens when you get struck by lightning and people have survived that.

But i certainly wouldn't recommend counting on it.

FredTheNuke said:

If I had to choose between a 15 amp circuit with 0 amps of load and a 15 amp circuit with 15 amps of load I personally would choose to grab on to the 15 amp circuit with 15 amps of load....

My reasoning: There is a snowballs chance in HELL that the extra 1/5th of an amp that it takes to kill me will trip the breaker thus de-energizing the dam circuit before I die... Just saying...

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A little OT, but...

Yesterday I was working on my new workbench and miter saw station. I had just finished decking the top portion of it and decided to use some plywood scraps. I lined up the good edges at the back of the table, fastened them all down, and then went to rip the front edge. Took me two passes because the damn thing is 19' long and I only had a 12' straight edge, but I digress.

I had a neoprene glove on my right hand holding my worm drive circular saw, the left hand bare and sleeve rolled up for safe. I finished the cut, then went to set it down on my table saw. BOOOOM! 240v arced from the stamped steel table saw extensions and onto the circular saw's magnesium blade guard. Blew of pieces of both and left some black pitted scars.

I stood there in shock for a moment. Alive? Yes. In pain? No. Vision? Yes. Fingers? Yes. I slowly set it down on the concrete instead, carefully walked past both, then went to unplug both extension cords. Scared me pretty good.

Luckily Skil foresaw this, and the left hand guide handle is plastic. The entire rest of the case is magnesium. If my hand hadn't been perfectly on it, I hadn't been wearing good boots, or my right hand wasn't gloved, I'd have been lit up like a Christmas tree.

The table saw is down for now. I pulled the junction box and checked the wiring which looks fine, even if a bit sloppy. I can't find any reason why it would be hot, but the entire chassis is hot when plugged in now. Looks like I have some more investigating to do now.

thadius856 said:

Alive? Yes. In pain? No. Vision? Yes. Fingers? Yes.

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Underwear?

Bobby_M said:

Underwear?

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Hah!

Tap a hole in the metal chassis and tie it to safety ground. Let your breakers do their job.

Safety ground, as in, a separate earth ground?

I thought that it was generally inadvisable in to have multiple earth grounds in residential wiring unless they're tied directly together. IIRC, you don't even drive a separate ground for subpanels.

If you mean tie the chassis into the ground conductor on that circuit, well, it is tied in at the metal junction box on the underside of the table. Unless perhaps I wired the plug incorrectly. Seems unlikely though that it would still work.

No, not separate grounding. Safety/equipment ground should be (well, is supposed to be) the grounding conductor for that circuit.

If the table is hot enough to make that sort of spark then I'd say it's pretty likely it's not grounded.

I'm assuming the Skil saw has a grounding plug on the power cord? Have you checked it for hot case, or has it been confirmed it is the table saw that's hot?

I meant the earth ground in the cord, if there is one. If the tool is double insulated by design, it does not require the earth/safety ground in the cord, but the inside of the tool must have 2 layers of insulation between live (AC) signals and the metal case.

Anyhoo, grounding the case will make it much safer, but will probably just result in a tripped breaker for you. You've got something wrong inside your tool. Take a ohm meter and check continuity between the metal case and the earth (or neutral, which is the large lug on the plug).

You might want to also check the outlet. Make sure you don't have the ground and neutrals reversed or something else odd like that.

whoaru99 said:

No, not separate grounding. Safety/equipment ground should be (well, is supposed to be) the grounding conductor for that circuit.

If the table is hot enough to make that sort of spark then I'd say it's pretty likely it's not grounded.

I'm assuming the Skil saw has a grounding plug on the power cord? Have you checked it for hot case, or has it been confirmed it is the table saw that's hot?

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passedpawn said:

I meant the earth ground in the cord, if there is one. If the tool is double insulated by design, it does not require the earth/safety ground in the cord, but the inside of the tool must have 2 layers of insulation between live (AC) signals and the metal case.

Anyhoo, grounding the case will make it much safer, but will probably just result in a tripped breaker for you. You've got something wrong inside your tool. Take a ohm meter and check continuity between the metal case and the earth (or neutral, which is the large lug on the plug).

You might want to also check the outlet. Make sure you don't have the ground and neutrals reversed or something else odd like that.

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There's ground continutity at the device yolk. Brand new cable all the way back to the panel with no junctions -- was rewired 6 months ago because an attic fire burned the old mess that they called a "cable". I haven't checked it yet at the junction in the saw yet. Brewing kept me busy from about 7am til midnight last night, and it wasn't even brew day... that's today! It's locked out, tagged out though.

I currently run it (edit: the table saw) off the laundry room's dryer 220V circuit. The wife doesn't like it when I forget to plug the dryer back in because she's afraid of the plug. The a-hole insurance electrician installed the device yolk up-side-down, and I don't want to touch his work until he passes final inspection.

I don't see a double insulated symbol on it-- (two concentric squares -- (edit: the circular saw) and it has a ground prong. I took my outlet tester to the extension cord it was plugged into and there's good ground. Also on a brand new circuit. I doubt it's the (edit: circular) saw, as it's brand new. =

It's a 3-prong (edit: 240V) outlet, so I'm pretty sure we're only H-H-N and with the ground tied to the surface-mounted box. There's a ground in the cable, and really the electrician should have just installed a 4-prong yolk, but I think he didn't want to piss me off by making me re-wire my dryer. Good idea, though. I'll check it out soon. Note, the dryer runs fine on it and is not energized. Swapped neutral and ground in this case wouldn't matter because I'm not on a subpanel, so they both trace back to the same lug on the bonded bus.

I took my non-contact voltage tester to both the circular saw and the table saw. The entire table saw case, extension wings and bars light up like mad. The circular saw does nothing. Yeah, pretty sure it's the table saw. Plus, the 240V circuit tripped when it arced. If it was the circular saw's circuit, I would expect the 120V circuit to trip. Breakers only sense a fault on the hot. (edit: non-AFCI)

Haven't broken out the multimeter yet. Will have to find time for that. The saw be wired for 120V easily -- the 240V connection doesn't really add the extra "umpfh" I thought it would. I left it at 240V because I only had two 120V circuits within reasonable reach when I re-wired it and the table saw draws a full 10 amps under load, so it would prevent nuissance tripping circuits mid-cut. But now that we've re-wired, I have many more at my disposal, including a dedicated 120V circuit, so I may just wire it back to 120V while I'm at it.

The contractor we hired did an extremely poor hack job on our place as well. Everything in the kitchen, living room, dining room, and bathrooms were all wired to one 15amp circuit. Whenever we turned on something with the microwave, 75% of the house goes out...
My cousin, an electrician who lives about 3hrs away, had to spend several weekends with me fixing the major problems. Still a work in progress. Some are easy to spot, others not so much...

If this was some sort of renovation and wasn't done to code then I surely hope you're pursuing the contractor to make it right.

Should charge him for your time. Sharing circuits between a kitchen and anything other than a dining room or similar is quite literally illegal in almost every jurisdiction. You are under NEC of some version, right? Anyway, I feel your pain. My electrician brought his two daughters (~7 y/o and ~9 y/o) on a Friday afternoon to re-wire my main panel and was trying to have them help him. Worst father ever! I convinced him to let us take the girls inside to play with our parrot and watch some TV. I should have told him to GTFO my property, but it was Friday and he had to complete the last circuit to allow us to bring power back up. I didn't want to sit in the dark all weekend.

Following up on the table saw...

H1-N and H2-N measured 120.1V at the receptacle, H1-H2 240.2V. Rock solid. Took apart modular plug, and it was wired correctly. Took apart the switch box on the inside of the saw, and everything was fine there too. Took the motor off the saw. At this point, I have motor, switch box, and cord all on the ground, so I place the switch box on the table saw and plug in. Entire saw is hot. Put the switch box on the ground and place the motor on the table saw then plug in. Entire saw hot. WTF?!

Found the problem finally. The motor was wired with ground and neutral swapped, so the neutral was bonded to the motor's case. Doesn't make a difference when it was 120V, but when I swapped the plug for 240V, now the case was electrified. Current was having to pass around the case to get to the contacts, so any time you presented a better ground path, BOOM. Swapped the wires back and we're golden now. Grrrr.

Hmmm...not quite following that. The saw is wired for 120/240V, and the neutral wire is switched?

whoaru99 said:

Hmmm...not quite following that. The saw is wired for 120/240V, and the neutral wire is switched?

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Correct. Neutral swapped with ground at the motor. Whoever wired it that way was using it on 120V, obviously with no ill effects because they both trace back to the same bus on a 120V circuit without a sub-panel.

When I replaced the plug for 240V 3-prong, I assumed naturally that the saw was wired correctly. Neutral was repurposed to 2nd hot for the 240V delta on the plug, which would have worked perfectly. Instead, that lit up the case of the motor like a Christmas tree. The motor's mounted on a big metal flange, directly bolted to the saw frame, with no break in continuity all the way up to the table top.



This is after I swapped it back. The white wire was originally crimped and bonded to the case. The green wire was tied into the contacts by that black pigtail. Luckily I was able to re-use the crimp, avoiding a drive into town.

thadius856 said:

Jesus Christ. Don't listen to some these posts, OP. That's a recipe for disaster.

If you kill the main service disconnect, the lugs coming from the PoCo's side of the panel are still hot and carrying the full 240V @ 200A, or whatever your service is. If you don't know what this means, then really, you need to study up a lot more before attempting or hire it out.



The main service disconnect kills everything downstream from it, which is... everything. If yours doesn't, then you likely have a serious code violation on your hands.



The "big leads" will kill you if you touch them, even if you shut off your service disconnect. If you want those to be de-energized, then you either need to have a pull disconnect upstream from the meter (unlikely) or have the PoCo pull the meter. My PoCo won't put the meter back in without the city inspector's tag, signature and date taped to panel. If your PoCo is anal, you could very well end up in the dark for weeks while you traverse the permitting process, then get an inspection.

If you want to do this yourself, please permit it. We just had a house fire this past year because I failed to find some unpermitted and faulty electrical work (burried under a foot of attic insulation).

Edit: Perhaps this will help show the seriousness of this. Here's pictures of what it looked like the morning after the fire department gutted the attic above my living room. I'm extremely lucky I didn't lose the whole house and nobody died.













Total cost was about $45,000 and counting.

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Looks like old knob and tube wiring. When we bought our house (1920's bungalow) nearly all of it was knob and tube. We spent about $8600 getting it replaced when we redid our attic.

What's confusing about electrical to me is how houses can have a giant mix of wiring in them. I mean, we spoke to a variety of electricians and they had a corresponding variety of solutions. You can safely move knob and tube without replacing it. You can replace part of it, etc.

Although we chose to replace all of it, other parts of the house still have romex, BX, etc., even though code in my town calls for everything to be in EMC.

I kept asking our electrician about the safety of this variety of wiring. Keep in mind, I hired the company that is basically the gold standard around here. Been in business forever. Top rated. etc. When I asked him about the Romex he looked at me and said, "All of Europe looks like that. It's fine."

When the inspector showed up, he saw who was doing the work and didn't even really look around that much. Didn't comment at all on the romex wiring that was visible. It was visible because engineered lumbar had to be put in as support as we worked on the attic. You could at this stage see down into many of the walls in other parts of the house.

All I'm saying is that it's hard for me to really get a handle on what's "safe" when it comes to electrical. Codes now call for so much. The reality seems to be that a lot of houses have a lot of stuff that is nowhere near current code. Is it safe? Well, that just becomes a loaded question. Had we not decided to finish our attic we'd still have most of our house filled with knob and tube.

No knob and tube. No BX. Everything is "Romex" in the house, except for some old remnant of the older cloth-wrapped non-metallic (same stuff, different sheathing). Romex is perfectly safe if used properly.

The only thing that was weird was the three black wires you might be able to see hanging down. Somebody decided it's be a good idea to use three polyethelene single-conductor cables to run the dryer line. It wasn't the cause of the fire, but it certainly helped fuel it while it was smoldering.

dannylerch said:

Because if they aren't union, they are probably a hack.

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I just couldn't let this go.

I have been a non-union electrical contractor for over 15 years. I have a degree in electrical engineering. I'm licensed in two states, fully insured and have worked on jobs ranging from MV distribution to intalling a residential doorbell. I've never had a callback from an unsatisfied customer nor a single insurance claim in my career. I guess I'm just a lucky hack.

I see lots of work done by union contractors in my area. A good portion of those electricians I would either fire immediately or have to completely retrain. There are good and bad electricans. Union or not makes no difference. If you hire one, get references. I am happy to provide them to my customers.

thadius856 said:

No knob and tube. No BX. Everything is "Romex" in the house, except for some old remnant of the older cloth-wrapped non-metallic (same stuff, different sheathing). Romex is perfectly safe if used properly.

The only thing that was weird was the three black wires you might be able to see hanging down. Somebody decided it's be a good idea to use three polyethelene single-conductor cables to run the dryer line. It wasn't the cause of the fire, but it certainly helped fuel it while it was smoldering.

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Knob and tube is actually very safe. The original connections were wrapped, soldered and taped which made for very good connections. Fires attributed to knob and tube are usually because someone tapped into the original wiring and did not make good connections. My dad always said about twisting wirenuts "twist it until you can't anymore and then twist it a few more times". Whoever worked in your attic did not do that.

lschiavo said:

Knob and tube is actually very safe. The original connections were wrapped, soldered and taped which made for very good connections. Fires attributed to knob and tube are usually because someone tapped into the original wiring and did not make good connections. My dad always said about twisting wirenuts "twist it until you can't anymore and then twist it a few more times". Whoever worked in your attic did not do that.

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I bought a pool heater recently (cheap). It had an electric start for the propane pilot, but nothing electrical worked on it. Turns out the only problem with the entire thing was that a connection under one of the wire nuts was loose. Saved myself $2k by repairing it. The wire nut was buried inside the thing so I guess the previous owner didn't bother to dig too deep.

lschiavo said:

Fires attributed to knob and tube are usually because someone tapped into the original wiring and did not make good connections.

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Or, insulation packed in the walls by owners that didn't know what they were doing.

lschiavo said:

My dad always said about twisting wirenuts "twist it until you can't anymore and then twist it a few more times". Whoever worked in your attic did not do that.

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They didn't even get it close to tight. When the fire investigator's electrical engineer touched the nuts, one literally fell off in his hand before he could twist it. They also left the lid off the junction, buried it 6" in cellulose, used that odd single conductor stuff, and spliced old ungrounded NM into new Romex. It also appears that they left a 240V lead for an old window air conditioner in the wall, live. Admittedly, we just disconnected it and cut the wires so short they could never be spliced live again, but haven't opened the wall yet to see if it was left live in there -- no point in digging out stucco siding to look at a dead circuit.

That would warrant the rejection of your "moderator" card!!

lschiavo said:

I just couldn't let this go.

I have been a non-union electrical contractor for over 15 years. I have a degree in electrical engineering. I'm licensed in two states, fully insured and have worked on jobs ranging from MV distribution to intalling a residential doorbell. I've never had a callback from an unsatisfied customer nor a single insurance claim in my career. I guess I'm just a lucky hack.

I see lots of work done by union contractors in my area. A good portion of those electricians I would either fire immediately or have to completely retrain. There are good and bad electricans. Union or not makes no difference. If you hire one, get references. I am happy to provide them to my customers.

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I feel the same way. Most Union electricians I know I would not let them touch my house and do not want them anywhere near any project I design. I am pretty loose myself with NEC codes for my own house personally, so I would consider that is saying quite a bit. But I know several "Rat" contractors who are some of the best electricians I've ever met and really know what's going on.

passedpawn said:

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Nothing wrong with that picture, if he gets shocked the fish are there to push him out of the aquarium!

As long as the fish tank frame is wood or plastic that Stud in the picture is in no danger as long as he only touches one energized spot at a time...

FredTheNuke said:

As long as the fish tank frame is wood or plastic that Stud in the picture is in no danger as long as he only touches one energized spot at a time...

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Funny you mention that. After making that tongue in cheek post, I was thinking the same thing this weekend. Not to mention the glass acting as an insulator (correct term?). Guess that would make him isolated.

Strange photo. Wonder what the purpose was in making it.

kevreh said:

Funny you mention that. After making that tongue in cheek post, I was thinking the same thing this weekend. Not to mention the glass acting as an insulator (correct term?). Guess that would make him isolated.

Strange photo. Wonder what the purpose was in making it.

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Right, current needs to find a path to earth ground. The glass is a great insulator and, with one hand back, no path. The screwdriver in his right hand is probably a greater danger than the tank he's standing in.

I pulled this pic off another forum I visit - a fish forum.

A bit late to the thread, but I've pulled my entire panel and replaced it with a new one. It's not too hard to put in a permit and get the city to literally turn OFF the power to your house. Makes it super easy to pull the entire panel or whatever you need.

What I haven't seen anyone recommend is that if/when you get the whole thing turned off to do the work you should think about tossing in a main switch between the meter and your panel. Then when you decide you need to wire in some outside lights or another bathroom or you need to rewire more power to a bigger brew setup you don't need the city to cut power anymore. You can just throw your own switch and safely work on your panel. Mine is big and industrial and when I flip it I lock it out with a padlock, not that anyone in my house will flip it on but me.

Just another idea to think about.

It depends on were you live if the home owner is allowed to pull a permit. Some states or cities you have to be a licensed electrician too pull a permit.

BlackRock said:

A bit late to the thread, but I've pulled my entire panel and replaced it with a new one. It's not too hard to put in a permit and get the city to literally turn OFF the power to your house. Makes it super easy to pull the entire panel or whatever you need.

What I haven't seen anyone recommend is that if/when you get the whole thing turned off to do the work you should think about tossing in a main switch between the meter and your panel. Then when you decide you need to wire in some outside lights or another bathroom or you need to rewire more power to a bigger brew setup you don't need the city to cut power anymore. You can just throw your own switch and safely work on your panel. Mine is big and industrial and when I flip it I lock it out with a padlock, not that anyone in my house will flip it on but me.

Just another idea to think about.

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Good idea about installing a main switch before the house panel. How big of a deal was it to have the power company come out and turn the power off to your panel?

Call me crazy or stupid I guess, I did not even shut the main breaker down. Pulled the old breaker out and stuck in the GFCI. HOWEVER... I have in the past worked for electrical contractors. If you dont know what you are doing call an electrician...

and just remember - Electrons are Tasty!

highland_brewer said:

Call me crazy or stupid I guess, I did not even shut the main breaker down. Pulled the old breaker out and stuck in the GFCI. HOWEVER... I have in the past worked for electrical contractors. If you dont know what you are doing call an electrician...

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I work in electrical panels all the time, I can't shut off the main, or I would be shutting down reliability tests and lights and test equipment. If you aren't feeling comfortable working in a breaker panel, don't! Remember don't fear it, respect it. If it's your home you can certainly switch off the main.

I installed a 50A GFCI spa panel for our hottub and the line for it a few years ago without issues. I'm not an electrician, however I spent about a week or 2 learning the code requirements and what it all took to do it as well as the permit process for it where I live. No issues since installation. I figure I can do the same again when I fininsh building my 50A electric brewery setup. Its not that difficult however you do have to know a little about electricity and at least the basics of wiring. That being said, if you're unsure or uncomfortable doing this kind of work, call an electrician. It's what they do!

beerloaf

I did HVAC for 15 years, working with live power. I've oops'ed lots of times and had 120/240 run up my arm, but the 3 or 4 times I've been electrocuted, it was so pain full, it makes your muscles contract so you can't let go, each time I bit my tounge. It feels like getting hit with a sledge hammer. The best part is the house hold 15amp outlet can kill the biggest man 15 times over, people get lucky because they are not grounded well. This thread has some bad info.

mikescooling said:

This thread has some bad info.

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What? Get out of here with this nonsense. The interwebz never lies.

Speaking of bad info:

mikescooling said:

... the 3 or 4 times I've been electrocuted ...

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Are you a cat?

Most folks can only get electrocuted once.

Electrocution is death caused by electric shock, either accidental or deliberate. The word is derived from "electro" and "execution", but it is also used for accidental death. The term "electrocution," coined about the time of the first use of the electric chair in 1890, originally referred only to electrical execution (from which it is a portmanteau word), and not to accidental or suicidal electrical deaths. However, since no English word was available for non-judicial deaths due to electric shock, the word "electrocution" eventually took over as a description of all circumstances of electrical death from the new commercial electricity. The first recorded accidental electrocution (besides lightning strikes) occurred in 1879 when a stage carpenter in Lyon, France touched a 250 volt wire

I just had my service upgraded to 200A. We did it because we needed a 20A circuit for a new above ground pool.

(what the wifey doesn't know yet is that a couple of those new empty new circuits are going to be wired to an ebrewery this fall > )

crazyirishman34 said:

Electrocution is death caused by electric shock, either accidental or deliberate. The word is derived from "electro" and "execution", but it is also used for accidental death. The term "electrocution," coined about the time of the first use of the electric chair in 1890, originally referred only to electrical execution (from which it is a portmanteau word), and not to accidental or suicidal electrical deaths. However, since no English word was available for non-judicial deaths due to electric shock, the word "electrocution" eventually took over as a description of all circumstances of electrical death from the new commercial electricity. The first recorded accidental electrocution (besides lightning strikes) occurred in 1879 when a stage carpenter in Lyon, France touched a 250 volt wire

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That is a nice little tidbit of info there. I guess I've been "shocked" many times but not yet electrocuted.

Weezy said:

I just had my service upgraded to 200A. We did it because we needed a 20A circuit for a new above ground pool.

(what the wifey doesn't know yet is that a couple of those new empty new circuits are going to be wired to an ebrewery this fall > )

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Pretty sneaky

I have a 100A service to my house with a 100A sub feed to my brew shop. I have 64A worth of elements all capable of being fired at the same time. And occasionally they all are. Everything is of course wired with proper over current protection. I have never tripped a breaker. My average monthly draw is about 4A. Try calculating what your electric bill would be if you ever got close to drawing 100A continuously or worse 200A!