Political Threads / Religious Threads

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Political Threads / Religious Threads

  • Yes, Allow them.

  • No, Do not allow them.


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TxBrew

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Allow them or stop allowing them?
 
I wouldn't mind them if most of them didn't end poorly. I'd be interested to know our track record so far. That probably wouldn't be easy to compile though...
 
That is kind of complicated. I personally dislike them, but I try to avoid them. I also think that people should be allowed to talk about what they please, else we start down the dangerous path of "beer only" and that seems to take away the "laid back fun" atmosphere.

But they get soo heated. Personally, I think that if you have to ask then you are having issues with it, and I think it's something that you should probably handle internally.

I vote allow them. Is that a confusing response or what?
 
In the proper forum they should be allowed.

Too bad they usually turn into personal attacks. But one always has the option of walking away if they are offended or tired of arguing.
 
I dislike them- I'm here for the brewing info. I genuinely like everyone here, and would hate to see someone I like and admire fall into some namecalling. If I want to talk politics, I have places for that. I don't have anyplace else to talk brewing, though.

Guess which way I voted? :D
 
If they are confined to their own separate forum (Political Discussion or the like, NOT General Chit Chat or Drunken Ramblings) I say allow them.

If they continue to pop up in various other forums, then no...they are detrimental to the purpose and spirit of this community. Almost without exception, they eventually spiral down into anger and hostility.
 
I'm leaning towards allow, but only because I feel the mods have been very good about, well, moderating: locking threads before they heat up much, banning those who get too rude. I've seen some great, constructive discussion in some political threads and I've never even seen any religious arguments, so they must being doing a good job.

That said, if monitoring/regulating politcal/religious threads has become too laborious and time consuming, I'm okay with getting rid of them.

good people drink good beer. This place is nothing but good beer drinkers. So, logically, political advice from anyone here would have to be good advice because it came from a good person, right? ;)
 
I wish I could vote yes but after the last couple ones, I have to say no. It wasn't what was said in the threads but the fact that I saw it carry over into other threads.
 
allow them but add an icon that clearly marks such threads. its hard to ban such discussion as just about everything has a political side, a lot of rants that turn up in the chit chat sections often turn into political debates so I dont think you can get rid of them but allowing people to mark them clearly is a good idea.
 
i don't care either way. they are entertaining to read sometimes, but i rarely participate.

but...your question is kind of confusing...allow them or not allow them...not really yes/no question :D
 
My vote is allow them, but confine them to a specific Politics/Religion subforum. I personally steer clear of them in general, but if others want to go off it doesn't bother me.
 
I wish I could vote yes but after the last couple ones, I have to say no. It wasn't what was said in the threads but the fact that I saw it carry over into other threads.

That is exactly right. This is a knife that strikes a pretty deep wound when improperly wielded. Like My Signature says...I'm here for beer. I'm pretty opinionated, and I tend to harbor pretty hard feelings against people that get stupid and start name calling and mud slinging in a conversation.

I just try and avoid it all because I want to be able to beer swap with everyone on this forum without worrying that someone may be trying to poison me for my political views. :cross: I say that in jest...but really, I want to be friends with everyone here, there is no need to start any conversation or take part in any that is bound to become divisive.
 
I have yet to see one of these threads end well. I know people like to talk about their opinions and beliefs, I just don't know how to keep these discussions from getting out of hand in a hurry so I have to vote to eliminate them.
 
Betcha can't guess which way I voted...

...:D

I like political threads; I like getting differing viewpoints on some issues, and to be honest with you, I've altered the way I think about some things in part because of the debates I've engaged in here. If that's not a positive element, I don't know what is. Of course, as Lorena says, we can just go somewhere else to get our political debate---but to be completely honest with you, there's not too many other places on teh interwebz that are as civilized and fun to banter with. I'd challenge anyone who thinks that our debates here are out of hand to check out any of the thousands of political forums out there, and then still tell me they think we have a serious problem. Really, I think that the rather tame arguments that we get into here have the tendency to devolve over time, but that's usually because the meat of the debate has been rehashed and rehashed so much already that the participants have nothing more to debate than semantics or logical-conclusions or, unfortunately, personal attacks. As long as that is policed, I don't see a problem.

To the point about losing respect for someone because you get to see their ugly side, well, I have to say that banning political threads just so that you only get to see the peachy side of people is a bit troublesome if you ask me. If someone's an *******, then they're an *******. Talking about the technicalities of homebrewing doesn't usually bring out the ******* in people, but that doesn't mean they're any less of one. If your respect of someone is based only on a portion of their personality, and you'd rather just keep a paper bag over the other side so you don't have to see it, then I'd say that that's not a very meaningful interaction. Or, inversely, if you can't respect someone because they have different beliefs and ideals, and would rather just talk about beer, then I'd say you might have some growing up to do. Either that, or just avoid the political threads. As for religious threads, I don't see how that's an issue since there's one of those maybe every 6 months that I can see. Not exactly a pressing issue.

All in all, I feel like the policing needs to be much more refined than it has been in the past...much more savvy. I can't tell you how to do that, but I can say that, in the past, the policing has seemed very subjective and selective. I've never gotten an infraction or a suspension or anything, but apparently there are some people who feel like I should have tons---or that I'm a step away from one. Is any of this communicated in a clear, objective manner? I don't think it is. And this creates problems, simply because it almost leaves an invisible threshold out there that nobody really knows when they're going to pass. Certainly, there are things that are obviously deserving of infractions or suspensions---but there are other things that could probably be addressed with a simple "hey, watch it, this is your last warning" kind of thing. It just doesn't seem to me, someone who's been around for about 2 years now, that there's any universal protocol for these things, and that worries me---not because I'm scared of getting the whip cracked on myself (who knows, I might), but because it can drive otherwise good people away from the site because they can't deal with the constant ambiguity. And lastly, I think that it is of utmost importance to maintain at least the appearance of objectivity from those policing the place---and when moderators are actively involved in debates, it threatens that concept.

I'm of the firm opinion that the OT banter, including political discussion, is one of the cornerstones that make this place enjoyable to frequent---and that eliminating them altogether is NOT the answer.
 
Have to side with Evan! on this one. Not allowing them is a sort of censorship, no? Something like, say, prohibition.

The mods surely have to keep an eye on things, thus making an already large job larger. But civil people (as we all are) should be able to have civil discussions.

That said, I stay away from any political and religious topics. Too personal for me.
 
Have to side with Evan! on this one. Not allowing them is a sort of censorship, no?

not to start this discussion here...but this is a privately owned non-governmental non tax funded web site and censorship is 100% acceptable.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

and the fact is: Limiting the freedom of either the owner or the designated Moderators to censor the content of a private forum is in and of itself a violation of the first amendment.
The Freedom of speech ONLY pertains to the Government passing LAWS that forbid you to speak your mind. It does NOT guarantee you a Public Forum to do so.
 
I think they're entertaining. I don't post in them too often, but they're a great diversion and I often learn new things.
 
I say allow them. I like to mingle a bit in the political threads but I don't usually take part in religious discussions because I'm a little too left brained to argue logic vs faith. As far as politics go, I find it extremely interesting reading what people's real-life opinions are that are removed from my geological area. As long as the conversation remains detached from strong emotions I can participate but if it goes to anger, well then it's just the same as a religious discussion to me. I have no interest in debating opinions that aren't based on sound reasoning. You guys go ahead, but I'll just bow out.

An example of political discussions I've enjoyed would be the threads on legal and illegal immigration. Here in Canada we don't have the same issues as Americans in the south or those in England but there are some common themes. As a person who leans fairly far left I couldn't help but wonder if some of my own beliefs weren't founded while being the idealist on the outside looking in. I haven't actually changed my basic opinion on most matters, but I feel my horizons were expanded at least to the point where I know some of the issues around the dissenting views. Heck, I don't think I even posted in those threads. I just wanted to hear what people had to say.
 
I am for allowing them.

Without political threads most of the laws on restricting homebrewing and shipping of said "Live Yeast Samples" would be unknown to us noobs and rookies. The political threads also allow members to post local, state, and federal issues that might be coming up in the near future. This is a great way to pass on information to other members and hopefully stop any ridiculous or harsh laws.

Religious threads might be harder to justify as religion is not set in stone for the average person and typically becomes a heated topic quickly. This would justify moderation by higher-ups but does not mean that the threads should be forbidden.

Unfortunately, our monitors are not able to display the nuances and jests that might be in posts and therefore the response can become "offensive". What is needed is an open mind of the reader to the poster's intended meaning, not excessive censorship. We are personally responsible for how we take others opinions. If you don't fully understand what someone means by their post, PM them for more clarity and understanding.

"Opinions are like belly buttons. Everyone has one and they are usually full of something." :)
 
I voted no mostly because I don't care about US politics or about religion - I'm here for the beer discussion. That said if they are confined to a single forum that I can filter out of the new posts screen I have no problem with them being on here.
 
I voted yes. I like the debates and agree that for the most part they start well and receive honest and productive debate but later devolve into banter and name calling. I think for the most they are a positive thing.

I really like the idea of a subforum. That way those who don't like the debates can more easily steer clear and all the hostilities can be contained. I vote Evan! as the new moderator ;)
 
not to start this discussion here...but this is a privately owned non-governmental non tax funded web site and censorship is 100% acceptable.

Correction: 100% legal. Acceptable? Well, that's for each of us to come to our own conclusions about.
 
I sure do believe that one can allow the discourse of politics and religion, while still enforcing a No-Flaming policy. The trick for people is to learn how to disagree without being ugly.

The trick for the moderators, I suppose, is to gauge when an argument crosses the line between attacking a position and attacking the person.
 
not to start this discussion here...but this is a privately owned non-governmental non tax funded web site and censorship is 100% acceptable.

BigK, no argument there, except for the acceptable part. My thinking is, I have found this place to be an exceptional gathering of reasonable, kind people. Why shut down certain portions of it because some of us want to travel down the highway toward being childish?

I don't want to make more work for the mods, but it sure seems like they're well on top of things.
 
I voted to allow although I think a third option of "Allow but restrict to their own forum" would be more accurate for my opinion.

My take on censorship as a whole is that each of us should be responsible for censoring ourselves. If reading other people's politicial or religious views has a tendency to make you angry than guess what, DON'T READ THEM. It's really that simple.

EDIT: Forgot to add that if the mods do limit political/religious discussions to a separate forum I fully support punishing those who carry those conversations into other parts of the site.
 
I guess my thought is why have it here? On the other had if people want to do that go right ahead I mostly avoid such things anyway. I'm here for the beer and the women damnit!! ;)
 
+1 Yooper There are plenty of forums out there for those discussions. Since they generally degenerate to insults of intelligence, logic, or lack of it, race or belief there is no reason to have them on a beer forum. Every one of us fit into at least one of the above categories but we have a common theme here, brewing. Now discussing brewing law is a little different because the laws of brewing concern us all. But outside of brewing law is something you need to discuss with your congressmen.
Tex I think if you want to have a rel/pol forum it should be members only and be shown but only opened to members. The members here are intelligent and opinionated. While heated discussions due ensue sometimes there is usually no name calling. Most members have or have learned the fine art of wordplay. No one wants to be banned. I find this hilarious and usually cant stop reading the thread. The private forum idea would keep your average malcontent from degenerating a sensitive thread and possibly generate a bit of revenue. My .02
 
The only way for something like this to work is to have a forum that is password only and unmoderated (the mods would be working overtime otherwise). You have to ask the admin for the password and accept that this forum will be unmoderated and only the thick skinned need apply. Any complaints to the mods for someone venturing into this forum and getting offended would result in disciplinary action taken against the complainer.

I have seen this type of password only, unmoderated forum work on many other sites that I frequent. Knowing that you are entering "the wild west", so to speak, and that complainers will be dealt with tend to keep the thin skinned out.
 
I voted for, but I want to make it clear that I only support it if it doesn't (or hasn't) become a huge burden on the mods to oversee it. I really enjoy the political debate on the forum, as it contributes to the overall "pub" feel of the site. This site is a "one-stop shop" for all my interweb needs..........I'd prefer not to go find a specific political forum to talk about politics. I don't even know those people! At least here we all have something in common; we're all passionate about brewing (and drinking) beer. That's enough common ground for me.

On the flip side I can, to some extent, relate to the idea of not wanting to know EVERY detail about a person I'm talking to (for example if they solicited a transvestite hooker back in '82): But when did it become impossible to have friends that believe in different political ideals? I for one have not had that problem, and if I did I would avoid political discussions on this site and in person. To that end maybe it isn't a bad idea to give them their own forum.
 
Every now and again...a brawl is unavoidable. Once the politics die down...we'll be cursing each other about fly VS batch and SS VS aluminum.

With a good homebrew in hand…personalities are bound to “shine”.

Regardless of the debate topic…the basic rules should stand:

Shake hands first.
Exchange your verbal fisticuffs.
No low blows.
First person to go down…fights over.
Shake hands and buy each other a beer.

brawl.jpg

If those crazy Irish can keep returning to the same pub night after night, brawl after brawl, then so can we.

Bottom line is that it is us (homebrewers) against the rest of the BMC drinking world.
 
The only way for something like this to work is to have a forum that is password only and unmoderated (the mods would be working overtime otherwise).

While this may make it easier on the mods, I think an unmoderated forum would instantly change all discussions in that forum from civil banter into flame wars........it would be the exact opposite of what I'm looking for. IMO if this is the decision we come to I would certainly not frequent it!
 
I voted for, but I want to make it clear that I only support it if it doesn't (or hasn't) become a huge burden on the mods to oversee it.

That's why I said that the only way it can work is if a password only, unmoderated forum is created to house that kind of content. Otherwise, it will take away from the valuable service that the mods perform just policing the rest of the forum.

If you ask for the password you are agreeing that you will not be offended by the content if you "choose" to enter. And if you do get offended, you must just suck it up because complaining about the offense to the mods or admin will result in the complainer being punished.

I have seen this approach on other forums allow people to engage in subject matter that may be controversial, allow forum members to talk about subjects that interest them, outside the scope of the forum, without placing a burden on the forum's mods or admins.
 
I voted to allow, but like others I think such discussion should be contained within a dedicated forum. I do believe these discussions can be divisive and perhaps destructive of the brewing-related community spirit if people can't be civil, so I would not suggest that such a forum be completely unmoderated.
 
Allow them.

People should be able to tell the tone of a thread from the subject or the first few posts. If they're easily offended or just don't feel like reading things of that nature, they should click away.

It's like getting offended at things on radio/TV -- just change the channel if it bothers you, don't ban the material.
 
While this may make it easier on the mods, I think an unmoderated forum would instantly change all discussions in that forum from civil banter into flame wars........it would be the exact opposite of what I'm looking for. IMO if this is the decision we come to I would certainly not frequent it!

Please believe when I say that I don't mean any disrespect to you with what I'm about to say. This is exactly why it needs to be password only and unmoderated. What are you looking for? Politics and religion, by nature, are subjects that people hold very strong opinions about. Most people are not equipped, either because of a lack of education on the subject, or a lack of the communication skills necessary to engage in intelligent debate. This will always lead to name calling and flaming.

The fact that you would not frequent such a forum is proof that this is the only way it would work. You know your limitations, and that's a good thing. You suspect that you would be offended if you entered so you would choose not to enter.
 
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