efficiency question... sitting around 60%

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Komocabo

Komocabo

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Hi there. I am doing 5.5 gallon AG batches. Currently have a keggle mashtun. Using false bottom and dip tube set up. Did 12 lbs Great Western Pale 2-row and 1 lb Great Western Crystal 40L. 3.6 gals strike water at 168 and hit my target of 153. Temp moved from 154 to 152 by end of 1 hour mash. Sparged at 190-200° with 5.5 gals of water for 35 mins then boiled away. Preboil gravity was 1.038 at 70°?? OG was 1.046 at 60° after a 90 min boil. Seems really low... I guesss 60% or less. I can't figure out why this is happening. Mash temp is staying constant, sparging for good amount of time... the only thing I can imagine would be my crush. Using an older hand mill (yeah, it sucks to mill that much grain... about 30 mins!)

Does anyone see any problems with my process or figures? I want to stick with my equipment as I've spent some good money ant time on it all.

Thanks and Cheers! :mug:
 
Just about the same set up as me.
The two variable are grain crush, and stirring.
I stir every 15 minutes, and my crush is fairly fine. Got 74% today... not as good as when I was doing BIAB, but not too bad.
Are you stirring? How's your grind?
BTW, hook a drill motor up to your mill. :)
 
Komocabo said:
Hi there. I am doing 5.5 gallon AG batches. Currently have a keggle mashtun. Using false bottom and dip tube set up. Did 12 lbs Great Western Pale 2-row and 1 lb Great Western Crystal 40L. 3.6 gals strike water at 168 and hit my target of 153. Temp moved from 154 to 152 by end of 1 hour mash. Sparged at 190-200° with 5.5 gals of water for 35 mins then boiled away. Preboil gravity was 1.038 at 70°?? OG was 1.046 at 60° after a 90 min boil. Seems really low... I guesss 60% or less. I can't figure out why this is happening. Mash temp is staying constant, sparging for good amount of time... the only thing I can imagine would be my crush. Using an older hand mill (yeah, it sucks to mill that much grain... about 30 mins!)

Does anyone see any problems with my process or figures? I want to stick with my equipment as I've spent some good money ant time on it all.

Thanks and Cheers! :mug:
Click to expand...

Did you weigh your own grains? Maybe the kid at the LHBS forgot to count.:)
You could have the grains milled at ghe store next time to see if it helps.
Have you achieved better efficiency before?
 
Komocabo said:
Hi there. I am doing 5.5 gallon AG batches. Currently have a keggle mashtun. Using false bottom and dip tube set up. Did 12 lbs Great Western Pale 2-row and 1 lb Great Western Crystal 40L. 3.6 gals strike water at 168 and hit my target of 153. Temp moved from 154 to 152 by end of 1 hour mash. Sparged at 190-200° with 5.5 gals of water for 35 mins then boiled away. Preboil gravity was 1.038 at 70°?? OG was 1.046 at 60° after a 90 min boil. Seems really low... I guesss 60% or less. I can't figure out why this is happening. Mash temp is staying constant, sparging for good amount of time... the only thing I can imagine would be my crush. Using an older hand mill (yeah, it sucks to mill that much grain... about 30 mins!)

Does anyone see any problems with my process or figures? I want to stick with my equipment as I've spent some good money ant time on it all.

Thanks and Cheers! :mug:
Click to expand...

Did you yield 5.5 gallons into the fermentor?

What is the gap setting on your mill and type?


Really sounds like the crush.. My mill is set to 0.030 and yields 80-82% every single time.
 
Did you hit your target of 153? you state your mash temp is from "154" to 152. Do you have an insulated Keggle? The drop seems small. I use a cooler and the drop is in that range. Maybe your strike temp is higher than you think. Also, I have adjusted my PH and been able to raise my efficiency.
 
You could also try mashing a bit thinner and shooting for equal runoffs from the lauter and sparge.

Edit

Nevermind, I forgot you were fly sparging.
 
I usually stir in the grains after adding the strike water. I stir for a minute or two to make sure no dough balls. I fly sparge so.I usually draw about half gallon after 15 mins to set the grain bed and of.course return those runnings gently back into the mash tun.
Was shooting for 154, not 153... that was a typo... only dropped 2° after an hour.
I measure my own grain as I just started purchasing bulk.
The mill has an adjustment nut but it doesn't give a reading, so I have no idea about that, but I've got crushed grain from my LHBS and had about 70% efficiency... It must be the crush as I am basically eyeballing it at this point... crap... guess it's time to buy a good mill...
 
Acidrain, Do you stir every 15 mins while mashing? I was under the impression that I am not supposed to stir once I've doughed in as to not disturb the grain bed... Sounds like I need to rethink some.of my technique... I haven't done a batch sparge but maybe I should go that route and see if I get better results.
 
Oh and I use a 1:1 grain:lwater ratio. Tried 1:1.25 last time and had a little better efficiency...

Likely will try something else to crush... Still questioning the constant stirring (can't seem to get over the concept of not disturbing the grainn bed)

Thanks for all the advice!
 
Satisfaction... I yeilded 5 gals in.the fermenter. The batch ends up as 5.5 but I always lose about half gallon due to the height of my ball valve/bazooka screen set up.
 
Once you hit your temp, there's no reason to stir unless you're getting temperature stratification. The more you stir the more heat you are going to lose.
 
Isohoppy... haven't delved into the pH stuff yet... Seems a bit overwhelming to me at this point but mostly due to my lack of studying the topic. I get my water from the safeway refill station thing. Uses reverse osmosis, ultra violet lights, and 2 stage carbon filtration... the beer always comes delicious so I trust that part.
 
BBL_Brewer... thanks for chiming in and confirming.
 
Does it help increase efficiency for a 5 gal batch though?
 
Komocabo said:
Isohoppy... haven't delved into the pH stuff yet... Seems a bit overwhelming to me at this point but mostly due to my lack of studying the topic. I get my water from the safeway refill station thing. Uses reverse osmosis, ultra violet lights, and 2 stage carbon filtration... the beer always comes delicious so I trust that part.
Click to expand...

If you were using RO water with the grainbill you mentioned earlier, a check with BrunWater indicates you're likely hitting a decent mash pH of 5.5 because of the crystal malt addition. Nothing big to worry about compared to people way out of the ballpark.

There is some indication that increasing calcium improves mash efficiency somewhat (and could even lower your mash pH some more to 5.4). You could try a small addition of calcium chloride or gypsum; the calcium can also help with hot break formation and yeast health.

In all, I don't feel like pH is your problem.
 
You might want to buy a feeler gauge that's used to gap spark plugs and set you mill to .030. Before you buy a new mill.
 
The feeler guage idea is pretty awesome! I will give that a shot. Overall I will have to get a new or used mill because I am borrowing the one I'm using currently... Are there any decent ones for around 50-100 bucks? I'd like to avoid spending 200 on a mill... at that price I might as well just crush at the LHBS as it wont offset the savings from buying bulk grains...
Also, thanks for the info on the mash pH. That was helpful and reassuring. I have some gypsum hanging around so I will add some next brew day and see if it affects anything.
Thanks again to everyone! This forum is the best!
 
Komocabo said:
Acidrain, Do you stir every 15 mins while mashing? I was under the impression that I am not supposed to stir once I've doughed in as to not disturb the grain bed... Sounds like I need to rethink some.of my technique... I haven't done a batch sparge but maybe I should go that route and see if I get better results.
Click to expand...

Yes, I check the temp and stir every 15 minutes.
Also, I recently moved away from spring water and started using RO water with calcium chloride and gypsum additions (which seamed to help by a few points).
 
Read Kai's efficiency article (braukaiser.com). By taking a hydrometer or refractometer reading of the mash in the MLT you will know before you even start to sparge what your extraction efficiency is. With a .035in crush using a cooler/RIMs I'm consistently in the mid-90's at this point. Any loss of efficiency afterward is due to lautering/deadspace/system loss (hoses, pumps, etc.).

As an example, a 1.53qt/pound ratio has a maximum yield of about 1.080 (19.4P). You should be able to get 90-95% or more of that (1.072-1.080)
 
acidrain said:
Yes, I check the temp and stir every 15 minutes.
Also, I recently moved away from spring water and started using RO water with calcium chloride and gypsum additions (which seamed to help by a few points).
Click to expand...

I recently started using RO water with the same mineral additions you mentioned. It didn't help my efficiency any, but it did improve the taste of my lighter beers quite a bit.
 
Helibrewer... are you saying I will have better efficiency using a high ratio? I.e. If I use 1:1.50 (lb grain:qt of water ratio) rater than 1:1, or 1:1.25? I've never gone over 1:1.25 but it sounds like the higher ratio I go, the more efficiency I will get from your post. This is all new to me so I guess I thought the lower ratio (1:1 for example) would generate better efficiency... sounds like I've been backwards on that... I will be getting a new mill, or having it crushed at the LHBS to get the crush sorted out for now, but it sounds like I need to also increase the ratio...
 
Are you batch sparging? At those temps stated (190-200) I hope so. Are you stirring after you add your sparge water and letting it sit for 5ish minutes? Maybe you're leaving a lot of sugar behind in the grains.

If you're not batch sparging, then 35 minutes might be kind of quick? See if you can slow your sparge down maybe. Other than that, like everyone else has said check your grain crush size.
 
I am fly sparging. Mash temp at 152-154 for 60 mins, then add sparge water after an hour. Sparge temp ranges from 190-200 as I am heating the sparge water in a separate vessel. I try to keep it at 190 but sometimes it will peak to no more than 200.
I only stir once I start the mash (add strike water and grains, stir then let sit.) Should I stir the grain bed while sparging?
Again, I thought that I should never disturb the grain bed after I get my mash temp... Thanks to everyone again... still confused about the stirring piece... is this one of those arguments like using buckets vs carboys - lol
 
Sparging takes me about 30 mins. I can slow that down a bit... Should I sparge for 45 or 60 mins rather than 35?
 
Komocabo said:
Helibrewer... are you saying I will have better efficiency using a high ratio? I.e. If I use 1:1.50 (lb grain:qt of water ratio) rater than 1:1, or 1:1.25? I've never gone over 1:1.25 but it sounds like the higher ratio I go, the more efficiency I will get from your post. This is all new to me so I guess I thought the lower ratio (1:1 for example) would generate better efficiency... sounds like I've been backwards on that... I will be getting a new mill, or having it crushed at the LHBS to get the crush sorted out for now, but it sounds like I need to also increase the ratio...
Click to expand...

No, my illustration was just to show that there is a maximum theorectical extraction that can be determined for any given ratio and that with the proper crush and temperature control you should be able to achieve about 95% of that theoretical maximum. If you can, then you know any efficiency issues are occuring downstream of your mash...and it's very easy to get a gravity sample from the MLT prior to sparging.
 
Here's my plan after all of your help:
-buy a grain mill and set it to 0.035
-increase my ratio to 1:1.50 for the strike water
-sparge for 45 mins (fly sparge)

Any other thoughts?
 
Helibrewer. What ratio do you go with. Do you fly sparge?
 
And thank you for the illustration! Very helpful. I have done 8 or so AG batches and learn something everytime. I have also been upgrading my equipment and just getting comfortable... even with my frustrations. Still love the hobby and with everyone's help will get much better.
 
Grasshopper, you are missing the point.
Efficiency, important is not! Consistency is paramount!
If you can hit 60% each and every time, add more grain!

The much bigger problem is when you are all over the board and can't predict what your gravity will be.
 

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