My first AG brew and need some guidance

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johnodon

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OK...I was pretty confident that I would be able to pull off my first AG brew without much complication. Well, the rest of my equipment arrives today. As the time gets closer and closer...I am getting more and more nervous. Can you guys please help me?

I'm comfortable with the whole process and timing (batch sparge). The thing I am not comfortable with is the amount of water. What's even worse is the fact that promash is a complete mystery to me (and I am an IT guy)! :confused: I have absolutely no idea how much water I should be using for the mash and the sparge. I am also a little fuzzy about my strike and mash out temps. I think I have a general idea where I should be with all of these things but I know that the more exact you can be the better off you will be.

To keep my first brew simple, I went to my LHBS and we pieced together a recipe for a 5 gallon batch of a nice, lite ESB. Here are the ingredients we came up with:

8 lbs. Brewers Malt - Briess 2-row
.5 lbs. Briess Caramel Malt 60L
1 oz. Briess Black Patent Malt
1 oz. Fuggles hop pellets (4.5 alpha acid)
1 1/8 ozs. E.K. Goldings hop pellets (4.6 alpha acid)
1/8 oz. Northern Brewer hop pellets (7.6 alpha acid)
Wyeast #1968 Special London Ale

As I said, I plan on doing a batch sparge in my homemade 52 qt. Coleman Xtreme. How much water do I need for the mash and what strike temp? How much water for the sparge (which I believe should be 170 F)?

I know people ask these kind of questions all the time. I want to thank you in advance for having patience with me and providing any assitance you can. If my wife finds out that my first attempt was an utter failure and waste of $$$, my brewing days may be over! LOL

John :mug:
 
I feel your pain as I was lost throughout my first couple of AG batches, but here is how I and a lot of others do it. As a general rule for the amount of strike water, use 1.25 quarts/lb of grain. As far as the temperature goes, that depends on the grain temperature and thermal mass of your cooler. Beersmith (the software I use and trust,) is telling me that for a mash of 152* F, you need a strike amount and temperature of 10.63 quarts @ 164*F when the grain is 70*F. Now in order to preheat your mash tun, I'd add the 10.63 quarts of water to the tun at around 180*F and let it cool down to the 164*F that you need. Now for sparging, this is where all of this gets difficult. The reason being is because there are a lot of different factors when dealing with boil off, but most people sparge with as much water as it takes to get around 6.5-7gallons of pre-boil wort. Personally, for a 60 minute boil, I sparge to get 7 gallons into my keggle when using my banjo burner. So this is what you do: When you mash out/vorlauf, do it into an ale pale that has the gallon markings. You will get around 1.5-2 gallons ( you will lose some wort to grain absorption,) that means you need around 5-6 gallons of sparge water. So, heat 5 gallons of water in your kettle to 170* F and do two batch sparges each 2.5 gallons. If done correctly, you will end up with around 6.5-7 gallons of pre-boil wort in your kettle.

Alright, so here it is again.

Strike water--1.25 qts/lb of grain. (10.63 qts @ 164*F), but remember to add it to the tun around 15*F hotter than you need to pre-heat the cooler and let it come down to the temp you need.

Sparge water--Drain your strike water after your mash into an ale pale that has gallon markings. Remember that you will probably need 6.5-7 gallons of pre-boil wort in your kettle, so subtract the first runnings from the 6.5-7 gallons and that's how much sparge water you need. Heat that amount in the kettle to 170*F and do TWO batch sparges of equal amounts.


I know that's a lot of info, but if you have questions, let me know.
 
From what I've read is that you want to have between 1 and 1.5 qt of mash water per 1 lb of grain. It's better to have a bit of room for extra water in case you come in low on your mash temperature, then you can boil some more water and top it up to increase the temperature.

I'd say 1.25 qt/1lb grain would be money. So with about 8.5 lb of grain that would be 10.63 qt (2.6 gallons). Then use however much sparge water you need to bring the total volume up to where you need for the batch size. Probably around 7.5 gallons total (more on how to get this number below). So I'd do two batch sparges of 2.5 gallons each. 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.6 = 7.6 gallons total. Just measure it out roughly so your about where you want to be and if necessary top up with water after your done sparging. If you have a little to much boil for a extra while longer. Just adjust your timing so you don't mess the hops schedule up.

It's important to know your boil off rate. I'd do a test boil with water the day before. Measure the depth of your pot. Then measure in about 5 gallons and measure from the top of the pot down to your liquid. Then you know the (height of the liquid) = (total pot height) - (distance from top of pot). Once you have a rolling boil time it for 1 hr. Measure out the new height of the liquid again. Figure out your boil off rate in (%/hr) and put that into BeerSmith so you know how much total water you need to start with.

Oh and I have a 52 qt Igloo Cooler, similar to yours. I figure Sparge losses are around 1 to 1.25 gallons.
 
WOW! You guys certainly are on the same page! :)

Tahnk you soooo much for the info and taking teh time to write it down for me. I greatly appreciate it! I am feeling much more comfotable right now and have you guys to thank.

That being said, I would love to keep this an open discussion and welcome more suggestions/info.

Thanks again!

John
 
One other thing I should mention...tun deadspace.

I figured the easiest way to calculate this was just to fill up the cooler with a few gallons of water and let it drain. What was left over is the "deadspace" right? If so, I only have about a 1/4 cup (in the resevoir at the botto). Does that sound low to you guys?

John
 
IMO, Nomad is right about most of that (especially calculating your boil off rate), but where I'd differ from him is I'd start with the boil at around 6.5 gallons. The reason being is because in my past experiences, it's better to have a bigger beer than you originally estimated than have a watered down, under-hopped one. Remember, you can always top your fermenter off with a gallon of spring water if need be.
 
One other thing I should mention...tun deadspace.

I figured the easiest way to calculate this was just to fill up the cooler with a few gallons of water and let it drain. What was left over is the "deadspace" right? If so, I only have about a 1/4 cup (in the resevoir at the botto). Does that sound low to you guys?

John

I wouldn't worry about that so much b/c after your initial mash, that space will be filled and you will already know how much water you need to sparge with.

Also, it's very important to sparge multiple times and to stir the mash very well after pouring in your sparge water. After you pour in/stir the sparge, let the grain bed settle for a few minutes before you vorlauf and drain.
 
I wouldn't worry about that so much b/c after your initial mash, that space will be filled and you will already know how much water you need to sparge with.

Also, it's very important to sparge multiple times and to stir the mash very well after pouring in your sparge water. After you pour in/stir the sparge, let the grain bed settle for a few minutes before you vorlauf and drain.

Got it covered. I made my DIY mash paddle yesterday. :)

Thx Halfpint.
 
HalfPint is right about the start boil volume, although it depends on your boil off rate. I should say that was for a 5.5 gallon batch though. I put 5.5 gallons in a glass carboy with a blowoff tube. BTW I'd get a blowoff tube, it's cheap insurance against destroyed ceiling/carpet/walls.

I'm also a newb and my last beer came in .005 under which was a bit annoying. I just topped it up with some DME. Spring water is easier and less expensive (DME is $8/lb in Canada).

And the reason I came in .005 was I didn't calculate my boil off rate! It's important.

1/4 cup sparge losses do seem low to me. The grain will soak up some of the water. As a rough guess I'd say the grain will soak up 0.5 gallons and then you have a 1/4 cup of deadspace. Add those together for your sparge losses.

Maybe some others can give some input in on 52 qt Coleman sparge losses, popular cooler.
 
No prob man. I hope that helps. I know one thing that revolutionized my brewing process is making a dip stick to measure how much wort I had in my kettle. All I did was buy a piece of plumbing pvc from lowes and add gallon after gallon into my kettle notching that piece of pvc at each gallon. It's really the most affordable way to accurately measure how much wort you have in your kettle if you're cheap like me and don't want to install a sight glass.
 
@Nomad: Yeah...the 1/4 cup was only the deadspace. I know that the grain will soak up a hell of a lot more than that. I just didn't know if I was calcualting deadspace correctly (seemed rather elementary). If I did it right, I would think that 1/4 cup is neglible and wouldn't even need to be factored in.

@Halfpint: Thats a good idea HP. I saw a video in youtube where someone used a piece of wood to do the same (notched). I think I like your idea better though. Is there any concern with PVC vs. CPVC? I know they suggest CPVC for manifolds but I am assuming that is because manifolds touch the ingredients for a much longer time than a measurement stick.

John
 
@Nomad:
@Halfpint: Thats a good idea HP. I saw a video in youtube where someone used a piece of wood to do the same (notched). I think I like your idea better though. Is there any concern with PVC vs. CPVC? I know they suggest CPVC for manifolds but I am assuming that is because manifolds touch the ingredients for a much longer time than a measurement stick.
John

It's CPVC, not PVC. It's the exact same stuff that people make manifolds out of. I think it cost me around $2.50 :rockin:. Let us know how your brew comes out.
 
I don't know much about Pro Mash, but Brewtarget will tell you exactly how much strike and sparge water to use, and what temp to heat it up to.
Make sure you set up all your equipment first, and it is a no brainer.

The author of this great software is an active member of this forum, so if you can't find the answer by going through the manual, you can post questions here. Search on Brewtarget. Free software!
 
No prob man. I hope that helps. I know one thing that revolutionized my brewing process is making a dip stick to measure how much wort I had in my kettle. All I did was buy a piece of plumbing pvc from lowes and add gallon after gallon into my kettle notching that piece of pvc at each gallon. It's really the most affordable way to accurately measure how much wort you have in your kettle if you're cheap like me and don't want to install a sight glass.

Pretty good idea. My suggestion about measuring height requires extra math (not bad if you carry a calculator and a pocket protector like me lol) but my method just requires a tape measure and you don't even get it wet. I dunno about sticking PVC in beer though. I'd trust copper pipe, untreated wood or CPVC more.
 
Pretty good idea. My suggestion about measuring height requires extra math (not bad if you carry a calculator and a pocket protector like me lol) but my method just requires a tape measure and you don't even get it wet. I dunno about sticking PVC in beer though. I'd trust copper pipe, untreated wood or CPVC more.

Yeah, you definitely can do calculate it without the water, but since I have a keggle with has a lot of dents/ isn't straight sided, I decided to use the water method.
 
What do you guys make of this calculator:

http://www.brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php

Here is how I set my #'s and it wants me to use a total of 8.5 gallons of total water:

water-1.jpg


Of course I would sparge twice so that # would be split in half. What do you guys think? Any adjustements needed to be made in my #s?

If this looks good, I think I have found teh perfect tool for dummies like me! :)

John
 
I used to use that before I bought Beersmith. As you can see, those #'s are pretty much exactly like the numbers Nomad and I gave you. I would say that calculator is pretty good for estimates. Hey, if you download beersmith's free trial, I'll send you the file for your brew.
 
I used to use that before I bought Beersmith. As you can see, those #'s are pretty much exactly like the numbers Nomad and I gave you. I would say that calculator is pretty good for estimates. Hey, if you download beersmith's free trial, I'll send you the file for your brew.

OK...downloaded. Fire away HP. :)
 
Hmm, I've made the file, but I've never uploaded one to Homebrewtalk. How do you think I'd go about doing that?
 
If you hit the "Go Advanced" reply button, then hit the arrow next to the attachment icon (paperclip) it gives you the option to attach a bsm from your computer.
 
If you hit the "Go Advanced" reply button, then hit the arrow next to the attachment icon (paperclip) it gives you the option to attach a bsm from your computer.

Yeah, I did/looked there, but I can't even find the paperclip.
 
Got it and tweaking it now with the ingredients I have (namely hops).

BTW...what should I set the mash tun temperature to if I plan on "pre-heating" it? I'm assuming that would have an impact in some # somewhere.

Once I make teh changes, I'll send teh file back fro you to look at HP.
 
i usually dough in around 1.25qt/ lb and i heat the strike water to 170*F.
if i miss my mash temp. i want it to be high so i can add a few quarts of sparge water to cool it down to right where i want the temperature of the mash.
that's much easier than heating water to add.
i usually end up right at 154* though...

grain absorption.
i think i've read that it's .125 gallons per pound of grain which is about what my setup seems to do.

be sure to verlouf atleast a few gallons, you want the wort very clear before you start collecting it. i use a one gallon pot, verlouf. shut valve. slowly add that back by pouring down the side of my cooler. usually do that 3 times.

i just do a dingle batch sparge of usually 3.5-4 gallons.
 
Got it and tweaking it now with the ingredients I have (namely hops).

BTW...what should I set the mash tun temperature to if I plan on "pre-heating" it? I'm assuming that would have an impact in some # somewhere.

Once I make teh changes, I'll send teh file back fro you to look at HP.

Hey, I got your e-mail. That looks good, but I'd probably change a couple of things. If I were you, I'd scale the batch back up to 5.5 gallons (leaves you some room for trub/loss of beer throughout the process) and I would do a 60 minute mash. Other than that, I wouldn't worry about preheating your mash tun, but instead adding your strike water (before you add your grain) at around 15-20*F hotter than you want it. At that point, let it cool to the appropriate temp.

For the strike water, do it like this: Add the water 15*F hotter than you want it, and when it hits 164*F, put your grain/ph stabilizer in the water and stir. After you stir, close the tun and don't mess with it for 60 minutes (don't even stir throughout the 60 minutes like a lot of people do).
 
Hey, I don't know if you got my pm, but I just saw that you were concerned about setting your mash tun temp for pre-heating. Don't worry about that, just put the strike water in the 15-20* hotter than it needs to be and let it come down to the temp you need it to be. When it hits the temp you want it to 164*F if I remember correctly, put your grain in, stir well, close the lid, and don't open it for the next 60 minutes. After that, put your sparge water 1 in, stir, close the lid, and vorlauf/drain you wort. After that, repeat with your second sparge, then start your boil giving you have the pre-boil volume you need (6.5-7 gallons).
 
I used to use that before I bought Beersmith. As you can see, those #'s are pretty much exactly like the numbers Nomad and I gave you. I would say that calculator is pretty good for estimates. Hey, if you download beersmith's free trial, I'll send you the file for your brew.

+1 on beersmith and D/Ling the free trial.

I did my first two AG batches last weekend and had the EXACT same problem/fuzziness with water calculations. My first attempt I think failed, it's in the fermenter so we'll see in a few weeks. 2nd attempt, I sat down, figured out BeerSmith and it worked great.

I used that same calc u posted, and promash and they confused me (i'm former IT sales lol).

I played with BeerSmith a bit and figured it out. It spit out difference numbers than the calc u listed. I used it on my 2nd AG batch and it calculated everything perfectly and I got 5.25 gallons of wort in the fermenter at the end of the entire process.
 
I bet BeerSmith is great, but why pay for brewing software when you can d/l BrewTarget for free, and it is really accurate with the temps and volumes. I'm a fan.
 
Use whatever you like, I'm not going to argue about it.

Just trying to help a new guy.

LOL
 
Success!!!! :)

With a lot of help from HalfPint behind the scenes, I have successfully brewed by first AG batch. Well, I guess we won't know if it was a total success until about a month from now...but I was within 3 points of my expected OG and I got EXACTLY 7 gallons of pre-boil wort. I could not have done it without you guys and I thank you all!

I'll post the recipe in a few...it has changed a bit from what I listed in the 1st post. I have to say though that the most gratifying part was cleaning out my mash tun and seeing how little water was left behind. :)

John
 
Success!!!! :)

With a lot of help from HalfPint behind the scenes, I have successfully brewed by first AG batch. Well, I guess we won't know if it was a total success until about a month from now...but I was within 3 points of my expected OG and I got EXACTLY 7 gallons of pre-boil wort. I could not have done it without you guys and I thank you all!

I'll post the recipe in a few...it has changed a bit from what I listed in the 1st post. I have to say though that the most gratifying part was cleaning out my mash tun and seeing how little water was left behind. :)

John
Way to go Bro!
Here's a fro!
:fro:
 
Woohoo! Grats! Hopefully the next most gratifying part will be when you drink your first brew!
 
OK...as promised here is the recipe. It is essentially Iron Orr's Pub Ale recipe found here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f64/pub-ale-21226/ The only thing I changed was I replaced the Toasted 2 row witrh Biscuit. Honestly, I don't know what overall affect this will have but I just didn't feel like toasting that day and my LHBS said it was a good enough substitute. :)

0.50 lb Brown Sugar, Dark [Boil for 15 min] Extract 6.25 %
4.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 56.25 %
1.00 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 12.50 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 6.25 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.25 %
0.50 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 6.25 %
0.50 lb Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 6.25 %
1.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 27.3 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (5 min) Hops 3.6 IBU
0.25 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs British Ale (White Labs #WLP005) [Starter 35 ml] Yeast-Ale​
 
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