Sour Mash

I am planning on brewing a quick sour this weekend. I am going to be trying a sour mash for the first time. Is it possible to sour the wort after sparging? If I keep my wort at 100 degrees for 48 hours, will it sour just as much as if the grains were still present in the liquid? To me it just seems easier to do the whole process after sparging. Any ideas?

There's a million ways to do it, but yes you can sour after sparge. If you have a way to keep oxygen out, it would be a good idea. Maybe use plastic wrap on the surface of the wort.

I brewed a Gose this past weekend...the method I used to sour was adding lactobacillus at 95F, post boil. And after three days I added Wyeast Kolsch to finish things off.

I tasted a sample before adding the Kolsch yeast and it definitely had a sourness to it.

That being said, just as masonsjax says...there really are a million ways to do it. I did a bunch of googling before coming up with my Gose recipe and the three most prevalent ways of brewing a sour seem to be...

1) Sour by way of letting the mash sit for 3 to 4 days before sparging, which seems to be the most 'traditional' way of doing it
2) Sour by adding lactobacillus post boil, let it work for a few days and then add a finishing yeast
3) Sour by adding lactic acid

In any case, please provide an update detailing the method you pick and your final results...

I do this for some things. My preferred way is to cool the sparged wort down to around 100 deg and then inoculate it with a hop sack sack filled with a cup of raw grain. I let it sit in the wort for a few minutes then remove. The grain is covered with Lactobacillus and will take off pretty quickly. Once it gets where you want it just boil the wort to kill off the lactobacillus.

cluckk said:

I do this for some things. My preferred way is to cool the sparged wort down to around 100 deg and then inoculate it with a hop sack sack filled with a cup of raw grain. I let it sit in the wort for a few minutes then remove. The grain is covered with Lactobacillus and will take off pretty quickly. Once it gets where you want it just boil the wort to kill off the lactobacillus.

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cluckk...about how long do you let the wort sit before boiling?

I ended up mashing then sparging my grains. Once I cooled it to 104, I added 4 oz of acidulated malt and held it there for 48 hours, covered with saran wrap. Really nice sourness. Boiled for 45 minutes and added hops at 15 minutes remaining for 15 IBU. Cooled, and pitched US04. Really nice smell coming through the airlock. Going to add cherries to half, and dry hop the hell out of the other half.

HopNutz said:

I ended up mashing then sparging my grains. Once I cooled it to 104, I added 4 oz of acidulated malt and held it there for 48 hours, covered with saran wrap. Really nice sourness. Boiled for 45 minutes and added hops at 15 minutes remaining for 15 IBU. Cooled, and pitched US04. Really nice smell coming through the airlock. Going to add cherries to half, and dry hop the hell out of the other half.

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Good info...keep us updated on how it turns out.

I have done a sour mash by mashing then purging the mash tun with CO2 and then pitching in some unmilled wheat. I checked the pH every day until the pH hit 3.2. Then I sparged and boiled. And pitched a clean yeast. Turned out a very clean lactic flavor and good hop flavor. Kept the fermenters lacto free due to the boil pasteurization.

If you are not planning on using a strain purchased from a store, and just want to use whatever lacto is on the grain, do you HAVE to add unmilled (and unmashed) grain back to the wort after it is sparged, or can you simply seal it up and keep it at temp for a few days? Basically, is there enough lacto from the mashed grains still viable in the wort after the mash, or do you have to add more?

I'm not sure if lacto survives the mash, but every resource I've seen says to throw in a handful of unmilled grain after the mash. It works for me.

I added acidulated ,which is pucker your face sour, because I was going for a beer with some serious twang. When I tasted just prior to boiling, it was tart. I'm expecting it to come out more sour after fermentation due to all the sugars being fermented out.

masonsjax said:

I'm not sure if lacto survives the mash, but every resource I've seen says to throw in a handful of unmilled grain after the mash. It works for me.

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I would assume it does, right? I've seen/read different methods but my simple mind needs some clarification haha. Does this mean:

a) they mash and drain like normal, then let the grains sit at 100F for X days and then sparge

or

b) they mash like normal, keep the grains and wort together at 100F for X days and then drain and sparge

and

c) (I've read this method before) mash, drain, and sparge like normal and throw a handful of unmilled grains in and hold it at 100F

The reason I ask is that I used spent grains to make a partigyle beer by mashing a second time. I boiled the runoff for 30 minutes and then put a spoonful of those twice mashed grains into the 1 gallon wort I had created. I didn't hold it at 100F though, it's sitting in my closet and holding about 63-65F but I do have fermentation going on that doesn't look like sacc (i.e. no real krausen). It looks more like soap bubbles that have filled the headspace. Smell isn't pleasant, but it isn't rotten/vomit...yet. It's all an experiment, and I'm not against dumping it, I was just curious.

For a partigyle beer, you don't need to mash a second time unless you're adding more grain, you can just go ahead and sparge again. Lacto will ferment at cooler temps, it just takes a lot longer. Also, If you have a way to keep oxygen out, you can avoid the fecal and vomit bacterias from taking hold.

My usual sour mash method is to mash like normal (but not sparge yet), add the rest of my water (use a step calculator to get close to 125F), stir well, throw in a handful of uncrushed grain, cover the surface with plastic wrap, wrap the mash tun in blankets and put it next to a space heater for 2-3 days until sour enough (samples are easily pulled from the mash tun using the sparge valve), drain, boil, ferment like normal.

Wiki says 93% of a lacto culture dies at 63C (~145F).

Weezy said:

Wiki says 93% of a lacto culture dies at 63C (~145F).

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Even if this is half true, I should probably dump what I have going haha. I'll try again and keep the temps in a better range and flush my vessel with CO2.

Well, it's not bad. Not nearly as sour as I wanted. Every other aspect is delicious. Malty, raisiny, cherry. Brewed another the same way only I added double the acidulated malt. Doesn't seem to be any more sour. I wonder if souring the mash, as opposed to souring the wort, is a better way to go?

I just brewed one yesterday. I mash and batch sparge, chill wort to 110F, transfer to fermenter that I just purged with CO2, purge again after transfereing. Then I add the lacto and let it sit at 110F until it gets tart enough, which is usually 4 or 5 days for me. I don't boil, I just chill to 65F and pitch Cal Ale. At 65 the lacto will pretty much slow to a crawl and your sacch will take over just fine. I've experimented with getting the lacto from grain and from yogurt cultures. This time I'm using cultures from two different yogurts and grain. Also plaining on pitching a big ass starter of Brett B Trois three days into the Cale Ale ferment. I've never tried the White Labs Lacto, but I like the results I get from mixing multiple cultures. I feel like it gives the beer a little more complexity.

There's not really a wrong way to skin this cat, but that method has been pretty reliable for me. I can't stress enough how important it is to flush with CO2 so that you don't get the aforementioned baby diaper causing butyric acid. Beyond that, you should be fine no matter how you decide to go about it.