Wow! BIAB no mashout no-chill brewday

3.5 hour brewday(including setup, cleanup and putting everything away).. wow!

Just wrapped up a 3 gal batch of honey brown ale utilizing eBIAB with no sparge/no mashout & racking into a no-chill cube. I can't believe how simple and stress-free of a brew session that was!

Guess the we will see in a month how good it turns out

Keep working on tightening up your process. I can do a batch BIAB with sparge and chill in just a little over that.

You did really good though. Isn't it nice to be able to have your brew day done and everything put away in less that the conventional tun user can.

Absolutely! I can definitely see where I can shave some time off here and there as I get a good routine down. It was my first no chill session.. Really enjoyed it

Brewporn!

How long do you plan to leave the wort in the no-chill cube?

I did just one no-chill batch but I poured the wort right into the fermenter bucket, put on a sanitized lid and an airlock with just a little water in it so it wouldn't all get sucked into the fermenter. I set the bucket in a 62 degree room and it took about 36 hours to get cool enough to pitch.

This batch I will probably rack to a carboy on Wednesday. If this works out well I might do like the Australians do and brew a bunch of batches and leave them in the cubes until I have room to ferment them.. Weeks later perhaps. I like the idea of flexibility

Buckets are not rated for boiling liquids. I have no idea what actually happens if you do subject them to boiling.

I did my first no-chill a couple weeks ago and used a corny keg as a no chill vessel. It cooled down in about 18 hours.

BetterSense said:

Buckets are not rated for boiling liquids. I have no idea what actually happens if you do subject them to boiling.

I did my first no-chill a couple weeks ago and used a corny keg as a no chill vessel. It cooled down in about 18 hours.

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I checked on the buckets before I used it with boiling wort. The buckets are good for up to 250 degrees F. and I can't get the wort over 212.

I think I may have the market cornered on lazy fast brew days...

I do e-BIAB no chill in the ketttle, ferment in the kettle, then transfer to a keg for secondary / serving. Sometimes, I even cut the mash or boil short to say 40 minutes.

Lately, I have been setting a fan next to the hot kettle to speed cooling, gets down to about a 100 degrees in 6-8 hours, then I sanitize a few frozen 2 litre soda bottles and drop them in the kettle. When cool I aerate, then pitch my yeast slurry in the kettle.. I just keep the lid on the kettle for the active fermentation, then fit a plastic bag over the top of the kettle and tie it snug with a length of string before the kruesen drops. Seems to seal well and the beer is likely still gassing off some CO2, as there is positive pressure, once the bag goes slack, I try and keg it in a few days max.

I like doing no chill in the kettle, I also have been getting some decent hop aroma / flavor adding a hop addition once the wort cools to about 150 degrees.

Haha.. lazy fast brew day... Like it!

I like to think of it as "streamlining" the brew day

So it's not really no chill. It's a really long, DMS producing, bacterial fate tempting chill.

Great, now there is something else I want to learn about.

PS: Please tell me those are better bottles on what looks to be a PVC pipe and not glass carboys.

Hello said:

PS: Please tell me those are better bottles on what looks to be a PVC pipe and not glass carboys.

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haha.. yup! My quick and easy way to use the space above my fermentation chest freezer

What's the point of no-chill? Just simplicity? Is it really that hard to run the wort through a CFC and be pitching 15 minutes after the boil?

KPSquared said:

What's the point of no-chill? Just simplicity? Is it really that hard to run the wort through a CFC and be pitching 15 minutes after the boil?

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It is if you don't have a CFC or the funds to purchase and or make one.

KPSquared said:

What's the point of no-chill? Just simplicity? Is it really that hard to run the wort through a CFC and be pitching 15 minutes after the boil?

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I'm not going to go through all of the benefits of no-chill, as it has been discussed in several other threads, but here is my reasoning for it..

1)Time - shaves time of my brewday which allows me more freedom on when I can brew. Shorter brewday allows me to brew on a weekday after work for instance without staying up all night. Then pitch yeast in the next day or two. I have an immersion chiller and no-chill shaves an additional 30+ minutes off

2)Equipment - Less equipment to own/maintain/clean. I brew in my kitchen but keep all of my equipment in the basement.. this means hauling less gear up/down each brewday. Less to clean and less to maintain over the life of my brewing hobby

3)Flexibility - my fermentation chamber is a 5.0 cu ft chest freezer which will only fit one carboy. By cubing my wort, I can brew as often as I like and store the cubes until my chamber is opened up. I usually ferment in there for about one week per batch then remove and let it finish at room temp.

4)Simplicity - I just like the idea of less equipment and less variables.. some do, some don't.. BIAB & no chill is very simple and I like that.. allows me to have more fun without over-analyzing my brewing. and if it makes good beer.. win-win in my book



I must edit this to say that this being my first no-chill, I don't know if I will stick with it long-term, but after doing it for the first time, I was very excited about it..

Spintab said:

So it's not really no chill. It's a really long, DMS producing, bacterial fate tempting chill.

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If it produces so much DMS, why don't the Aussies complain about their beer? My one trial came out just fine, couldn't tell the difference between it and an identical batch that I did everything the right way. Is it because the yeast scrub DMS out while fermenting?

Yes, there could be bacterial infection during that long cooling period. If the container had a big open top it would likely happen but when you put a lid on, the heat from the hot wort pasteurized the lid so the only bacteria that you have to worry about are what can come in as the wort chills and draws in outside air. With my wort in the bucket, I had an airlock so the bacteria would have to swim through the water and then get into the fermenter. Had I really been worried, I would have filled the airlock with a Starsan solution or vodka.

KPSquared said:

What's the point of no-chill? Just simplicity? Is it really that hard to run the wort through a CFC and be pitching 15 minutes after the boil?

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Perhaps that works in Canada, but in many places water temps are too warm most of the year to achieve this...so yes, it really is that hard!

I'll obviously have to do more reading on no-chill.

I just hate all the plastic in contact with the beer. I know stuff is "safe" but it feels wrong.

And Ya, even in the middle of summer my tap water is cold enough to numb your hand. Chills very well.

I haven't built my CFC yet, Just have an immersion chiller. It is scheduled for re-proposing. . .

man that's an awesome system. I really want to make an eBIAB system now that I know more about the process, and combining it with no-chill is just perfect.

Garage is 52deg right now, it can hang out in there while I scrub the pots down..

carlk47 said:

This batch I will probably rack to a carboy on Wednesday. If this works out well I might do like the Australians do and brew a bunch of batches and leave them in the cubes until I have room to ferment them.. Weeks later perhaps. I like the idea of flexibility

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This can kill you.
Its not likely but it's not impossible. eek:

Its unlikely but if there are Botulism spores that float into the boiling wort that aren't killed (they can survive boiling) you could have a problem. They are slow growing and if left in wort for weeks its possible you could get botulism.

No chill is probably fine for pitching the next day, maybe even a few days later, but weeks later increases the risk, that if there were spores they will have time to multiply and excrete their toxin.

You may say it's unlikely, and I'd agree.
You may say "its never happened before" and I'd point out that that doesn't mean it can't happen.

I even looked into test kits for Botulism toxin, but they come to around $16 per use. ($400 for 25)

I would LOVE to be able to brew larger batches and save half for a month or two or three later, but i don't want to die.

I jokingly asked a friend if I brought my beer to the club to try there I would have a free test. He said to remind him not to partake.


I'd be curious on how many no-chill brewers keep their wort for long periods (months)

ArcLight said:

This can kill you.
Its not likely but it's not impossible. eek:

Its unlikely but if there are Botulism spores that float into the boiling wort that aren't killed (they can survive boiling) you could have a problem. They are slow growing and if left in wort for weeks its possible you could get botulism.

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So I have to ask- Is "long" duration no-chill brewing any riskier than say, wild fermenting or tasting an infected batch? I'm no biologist but is sure seems there are other practices in home brewing that would be far more risky. FWIW the longest I personally go without pitching is overnight. I am more curious than anything else.

ArcLight said:

This can kill you.
Its not likely but it's not impossible. eek:

Its unlikely but if there are Botulism spores that float into the boiling wort that aren't killed (they can survive boiling) you could have a problem. They are slow growing and if left in wort for weeks its possible you could get botulism.

No chill is probably fine for pitching the next day, maybe even a few days later, but weeks later increases the risk, that if there were spores they will have time to multiply and excrete their toxin.

You may say it's unlikely, and I'd agree.
You may say "its never happened before" and I'd point out that that doesn't mean it can't happen.

I even looked into test kits for Botulism toxin, but they come to around $16 per use. ($400 for 25)

I would LOVE to be able to brew larger batches and save half for a month or two or three later, but i don't want to die.

I jokingly asked a friend if I brought my beer to the club to try there I would have a free test. He said to remind him not to partake.


I'd be curious on how many no-chill brewers keep their wort for long periods (months)

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I don't think anyone could respond and say "yes its perfectly safe", because I'm not sure that anyone has found definitive evidence either way(from my limited reading on the subject). Although I can say that if you read the Aussiehomebrewers forum, they have been no-chill brewing for years and it's fairly widespread over there due to water constraints. I'd have to believe that if there were a major issue it would have been brought to light at this point. I've heard of aussie brewers storing wort up to a year.. not that I plan to do that, but it's nice to know its been done.

My other thinking is this.. I can get in a car accident any day of the week on the way to work.. would this mean I should never drive a car? Chances are always there..

With that being said, I'm heading out to work in 20 minutes

CUrchin said:

So I have to ask- Is "long" duration no-chill brewing any riskier than say, wild fermenting or tasting an infected batch? I'm no biologist but is sure seems there are other practices in home brewing that would be far more risky. FWIW the longest I personally go without pitching is overnight. I am more curious than anything else.

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The thought behind pitching yeast quickly is to allow them to crowd out any foreign bacteria as soon as possible. Yeast reproduces really fast. The earlier you get it in there, the sooner nothing bad can even begin to contend with its meal.

carlk47 said:

I don't think anyone could respond and say "yes its perfectly safe", because I'm not sure that anyone has found definitive evidence either way(from my limited reading on the subject). Although I can say that if you read the Aussiehomebrewers forum, they have been no-chill brewing for years and it's fairly widespread over there due to water constraints. I'd have to believe that if there were a major issue it would have been brought to light at this point. I've heard of aussie brewers storing wort up to a year.. not that I plan to do that, but it's nice to know its been done.

My other thinking is this.. I can get in a car accident any day of the week on the way to work.. would this mean I should never drive a car? Chances are always there..

With that being said, I'm heading out to work in 20 minutes

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We can all go to work and do our jobs half as well as we are capable of doing and still get paid. Should we do that because it's easier but still pays the bills or should we do the best we can regardless?

I know we are all short on time and cash and we can get by by taking shortcuts, but for most of us brewing is a hobby. We don't do this to prove anything to anybody except ourselves. Sure the Aussies do what they do but the last I checked the only Australian beer on our shelves is Fosters which pretty much sucks. We have plenty of water and you can buy bags of ice in every grocery store to make it cold. I don't know. Personally I love doing everything I can to make my brew day as long as possible because I love every second of it. Even cleanup.

Spintab said:

Sure the Aussies do what they do but the last I checked the only Australian beer on our shelves is Fosters which pretty much sucks.

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Oooh, pretty harsh. Read up on the process and how it has been used successfully.

No-chill is safe as other methods and creates a good product even after several months. The hot wort sanitizes the flexible container, which collapses as the water contracts. I have tried several methods and all have created decent brew. Chilling by ice bath and by immersion cooler and sanitized blocks of ice. Slow chill in the bucket (boiling hot wort) and in the kettle. I just got a flexible container to try true no-chill.

Mash, boil, chill, and ferment in the kettle? Now all you gotta do is find a way to carbonate and tap it.


Wilserbrewer, how is the clarity of the resulting product? Not that it is critical but clear beer is my next target. Supposedly, proteins coagulate better with fast chill. It has not yet helped me.

We who are about to die salute you.

Epimetheus said:

Wilserbrewer, how is the clarity of the resulting product? Not that it is critical but clear beer is my next target. Supposedly, proteins coagulate better with fast chill. It has not yet helped me.

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I have found time and temperature clears all! I will admit the first couple weeks in the keezer the slow chilled beers do have some chill haze. After about two weeks, clarity is pretty good, and after that it gets much better. Lately, I have been focused more on taste than clarity to be honest...when I go to the local pubs and pay $6-$7 dollars for a cloudy pint of IPA, I kinda have become more lax on the clarity of my own beers! I play with gelatin occasionally, but to be honest, clarity isn't my main focus,

I haven't chilled a beer in two years now, reaching about 40 or so batches and not once have I seen infection set during that phase of the brewing process. I think the risk of infection setting during the no chill is very low though I don't bother with a cube as I fail to see how it adds any value to the process. Seems like another piece of equipment to over complicate a very simple process and a bunch of unnecessary shuffling of my wort to different containers serving the same purpose. In fairness though, I live in cold climate and it rarely takes more then 24 hours even in peak summer to reach pitching temp. I just leave it in the kettle overnight (or during winter 2-6 hours depending on how wicked cold it gets) with the lid and come alligator clips and once its cool enough move it to my fermenter and pitch.

Take it or leave it, but once I went no-chill I never looked back.

It's very tempting. I would love to just boil and be done with it on those days when I don't have enough time.

Couple of pics from my 2nd no chill batch today.. Wort is pretty clear after a quick whirlpool and 5 minutes sitting

Bradinator said:

I think the risk of infection setting during the no chill is very low though I don't bother with a cube as I fail to see how it adds any value to the process. Seems like another piece of equipment to over complicate a very simple process and a bunch of unnecessary shuffling of my wort to different containers serving the same purpose.

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Well said, I feel the miniscule exposure of air leaking past the kettle lid during the extended chill is not much to worry about, so I don't use a special no-chill cube. I always pitch yeast asap, in warmer months I will move the kettle to a swamp chiller with a bit of ice to chill the last 20-30 degrees.

Now if my goal was to store unfermented wort, the cubes would be required, but when pitching yeast ASAP, I haven't found a need for a cube, but rather just chill in the kettle.

I wondered why the Aussies didn't have a problem with Botulism with storing the wort for so long so I did some research on botulism and found this.

Spores are not killed by boiling; however botulism is uncommon because special, rarely obtained conditions are necessary for botulinum toxin production from C. botulinum spores, including an anaerobic, low-salt, low- acid, low-sugar environment at ambient temperatures.

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Since wort is naturally acidic, it prevents botulin spores from growing in it.

carlk47 said:

I don't think anyone could respond and say "yes its perfectly safe", because I'm not sure that anyone has found definitive evidence either way(from my limited reading on the subject). Although I can say that if you read the Aussiehomebrewers forum, they have been no-chill brewing for years and it's fairly widespread over there due to water constraints. I'd have to believe that if there were a major issue it would have been brought to light at this point. I've heard of aussie brewers storing wort up to a year.. not that I plan to do that, but it's nice to know its been done.

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I have read their forum extensively in the past. The vast majority of No-Chill brewers pitch soon after brewing, usually the next day.

The danger (admitedly low) with a 3 month delay is that can be enough time for a slow growing bacteria to emit toxins.


>>So I have to ask- Is "long" duration no-chill brewing any riskier than say, wild fermenting or tasting an infected batch?

Yes.

"Wild fermenting" lets bacteria and yeast start consuming your wort in the presence of Oxygen. You may get some unpleasant tasting beer but it wont contain botulism toxin.
Infected beer is typically infected with micro-organisms that make the beer unpleasant to drink, but not highly toxic. Of course if its infected with Samonella you will get sic, but thats not what beer is usually infected with.


>> (RM-MN) Since wort is naturally acidic, it prevents botulin spores from growing in it.

Wort does NOT have a low enough pH to inhibit the growth of Botulism. A wort with a pH of 5.5 at room temperature is not the same as a pH of 4.2


> (Epimetheus) .No-chill is safe as other methods and creates a good product even after several months.

Thats not true, there is a slight risk of botulism because the heat will not necessarily kill spores.



The Botulism risk of No-Chill is not the next day use, it's the use in 3-4+ months. I'm not saying its likely, its probably very unlikely, but it's a real risk that brewers should be aware of.

I see a lot of bad science being quoted that gives incorrect and misleading comfort.

Anyone who wants to do long term No-Chill brewing should know the risk.
If the risk of death or serious hospitalization requiring weeks/months of recovery is 1 in a million form using 3 month old wort, would it be worth it to you?
For some yes, for others no.

You obviously no more about botulism than your average home brewer and this is good information. Personally,I think buckets are cheap and I'd rather get things bubbling the next morning. What no chill allow me to do is BIAB brew AG during the week so I can spend the weekend with the kids. If I do the chilling at night while I sleep it keeps the brew day short enough to make that happen.

I spent some time researching botulism and getting the real info is difficult. What I found was that as the acidity goes up the amount of time boiling and the temperature requirement goes down. For a low acid food you need high temperature (like 240 degrees) for 10 minutes or lower temp (212, boiling) for 10 to 20 hours. At the acidity of wort the amount of boiling was never mentioned. However, what really saves us from dying from botulism is its requirement for aerobic conditions. As little as 2% oxygen completely inhibits the growth and toxin production. When you transfer your wort (how much oxygen is left after an hour boil?) to another container you would get some oxygen dissolved into the wort. How much? I don't know but 2% isn't very much.

I also found that in a typical year about 12 people die from botulism toxin in the US. 12 divided by 240 million is a pretty small percentage and while I don't want to be one of them, the chances of it happening is much like the chances of winning the big lottery without buying a ticket.

Fresh boiled wort will have very little dissolved oxygen. Hot liquids can't absorb much gas.

I think your risk of botulism from improperly canning asparagus is likely higher, but keep in mind that the WEIRDER the thing you're doing, the less statistics about how many people have died from it should inform your judgment. Probably no one died last year trying to make venomous snakes do ballet, but that doesn't make it safe.

The fact is that wort has a lowish pH, a highish sugar content, and some oxygen. So if "ish" and "some" is enough to alleviate your concern about a near-untreatable, instantly fatal neurological disease for you or someone who drinks your beer, just to get some dubious extra convenience, you go with that. I pressure can wort concentrate for my starters, and I give it a good 20min at 255F.

I think if you No-chill and pitch your yeast within a few days you are most likely safe from Botulism. Its the using the wort 3-6 months later that would concern me.

How do you transfer boiling wort to a No-Chill container? With a siphon? With a ball valve? You aren't really aerating your wort, you are putting the tube into the container and transferring.

If you first Aerate your wort in the brew kettle, using teh Stainless Steel Mix-Stir (for example) you might be able to protect against Botulism. I don't know, but that's an interesting idea.

Since the wort is still very hot, and the mixing is for under 2 minutes, it wont cool too much, before transferring to the No-Chill container. Would that increase the risk of infection by air born bacteria? Or maybe the temperature is still high enough.

This would be interesting to try out, and a possible way to making a wort that could be used months later.

Would Hot Side Aeration have any impact on the taste since you would be introducing 7/8ppm Oxygen into very hot wort.

Hot Side Aeration is scorned by some, but this time we are talking about adding a lot of Oxygen - mixing with a drill for 60-120 seconds.

It's crazy-ass nuts, though. Botulinum doesn't even have to make a container swell to kill you. It may not even stink. But I am entirely talking about that months-long storage idea, a week or less is totally safe if contained when near boiling. But months!

Here's an easy way to tell if your food poisoning is caused by botulism:

If you get sick soon after drinking the beer, with cramping, vomiting, and Diarrhea = not botulism

Slow onset, paralysis and death = botulism

So what I suggest is if you want to use wort stored in a No chill container for several months (as opposed to just a few days)-

Use the wort, make the beer, and bring a six pack to your home brew club. make sure people have a good drink, and note who drinks it. If they attend the following meeting, then consume your beer (now aged a month, which is good for many styles, but not IPAs).

carlk47 said:

This batch I will probably rack to a carboy on Wednesday. If this works out well I might do like the Australians do and brew a bunch of batches and leave them in the cubes until I have room to ferment them.. Weeks later perhaps. I like the idea of flexibility

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I've done that a couple times. It's a col feeling when you think "I want a new beer but I don't feel like brewing" and you remember that all you have to do is transfer to a fermenter and pitch yeast.

KPSquared said:

What's the point of no-chill? Just simplicity? Is it really that hard to run the wort through a CFC and be pitching 15 minutes after the boil?

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Cost is a factor for many people. I'm not sure what a CFC costs, but I know it's more than zero. And it originated in the "outback" areas in Australia, where water is a scarce resource, so water conservation is another factor. Fewer things to clean. Best feature of homebrewing, lots of flexibility for us each to do things in a way that works best for us.