Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

flananuts said:

I just finished a 15 gallon ferment in a sanke and I went the airlock route for the first three days then installed my pressure rig. It was a pilsner in budvar yeast and it was a violent fermentation. Finished product came out great and is currently in the kegerator.

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What temp did you ferment at? I don't have much temp control on my unit so I'm sticking to ales right now. I put a box fan blowing on the Brewhemoth conical in the basement and I can keep the ferm at 66-68F at the peak of activity, I doubt this is good enough for a lager and I hate to gamble with 15gal of beer.

I fermented at 52 degrees then layered down to 32 for three weeks. This would have been a great beer to be able to dump trub from.

Need a little help getting a spear out of a miller Keg. I actually bought the drop in sanke removal tool that is supposed to compress the spear It compresses my other Miller keg's spear enough to remove the ring easily. This one, not so much. It released the pressure, but does not compress the spear enough to make o ring removal feasible. In the past, I just brute force got the ring out. I'm hoping to use finesse on this one.

I'm thinking I may have one of those screw in type miller spears. Or maybe I just needs some advice on how to proceed.

Can anyone lend a hand? My feeling is it might be a screw in type spear

Dgonza9 said:

Need a little help getting a spear out of a miller Keg. I actually bought the drop in sanke removal tool that is supposed to compress the spear It compresses my other Miller keg's spear enough to remove the ring easily. This one, not so much. It released the pressure, but does not compress the spear enough to make o ring removal feasible. In the past, I just brute force got the ring out. I'm hoping to use finesse on this one.

I'm thinking I may have one of those screw in type miller spears. Or maybe I just needs some advice on how to proceed.

Can anyone lend a hand? My feeling is it might be a screw in type spear

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Nevermind, as Wort and a few others mentioned, get the mini screwdriver involved. I'm amazed at how easily I got that spiral ring out, back in and out again. The drop in sanke removal tool is actually pretty handy. Anyway, I'm back in business. I had moved to a Derrin's setup for a while because the snap rings popped off a few times and drained my CO2 tank. With the drop in valve removal tool, I can easily get the snap rings all the way in. I pressure tested to 25psi with no problems. Even better, that spiral ring is easy to get in and out with the tool and a mini screwdriver.

I'm psyched to be back to using the modified sanke coupler. I know many like their Derrin's setup. Wasn't for me, however. Too many pieces sticking out. Always felt like I needed a third hand when trying to get it locked on. Always a small leak if I tried to force carb during a cold crash.

Anyway, very psyched to return to fermenting in a sanke and with the modified coupler.

Cheers.

Dgonza9 said:

Nevermind, as Wort and a few others mentioned, get the mini screwdriver involved. I'm amazed at how easily I got that spiral ring out, back in and out again. The drop in sanke removal tool is actually pretty handy. Anyway, I'm back in business. I had moved to a Derrin's setup for a while because the snap rings popped off a few times and drained my CO2 tank. With the drop in valve removal tool, I can easily get the snap rings all the way in. I pressure tested to 25psi with no problems. Even better, that spiral ring is easy to get in and out with the tool and a mini screwdriver.

I'm psyched to be back to using the modified sanke coupler. I know many like their Derrin's setup. Wasn't for me, however. Too many pieces sticking out. Always felt like I needed a third hand when trying to get it locked on. Always a small leak if I tried to force carb during a cold crash.

Anyway, very psyched to return to fermenting in a sanke and with the modified coupler.

Cheers.

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I bought the tool as well. Pretty tough to swallow the price when guys tell you they have no problem putting the ring back on. Some of the time I didn't have any trouble either, but when I did I was livid. Now I have no problem all of the time and life is good. I use the little screwdriver as well and it works great for me.

O. M. G. What an epic thread!

I just got done reading this entire thread and I have a question that isn't answered here..

I'm an Ale brewer only. I keg my beers, but serve out of 3 gal kegs. I normally ferment in an Ale Pail, but I have a functioning 10 gallon Corny. I don't have the ability to crash cool my entire batch - 10 gal corny won't fit in my beverage fridge..

So, I ask - is there any value for a brewer like me in Closed System Pressurized Fermenting with a Spunding Valve if I can't crash cool the entire batch before transferring to serving kegs?

I was thinking the value for me would be not having to mess with the swamp cooler/ice bottle situation (ester control) and also using the Spunding valve to add a little sparkle (ie free carbonation) to my beer at the end of fermenting.

Anybody else in my situation but employing this technique?

Hey guys,

So for reasons unbeknownst to me, my relief valve (mcmaster 99045K46) has started leaking.

Does anyone have alternative valve recommendations? $37 is pricey for a piece of equipment that has been lightly handled, sustained no trauma and hasn't lasted 2 years....



Cheers!

Jknapp said:

O. M. G. What an epic thread!

I just got done reading this entire thread and I have a question that isn't answered here..

I'm an Ale brewer only. I keg my beers, but serve out of 3 gal kegs. I normally ferment in an Ale Pail, but I have a functioning 10 gallon Corny. I don't have the ability to crash cool my entire batch - 10 gal corny won't fit in my beverage fridge..

So, I ask - is there any value for a brewer like me in Closed System Pressurized Fermenting with a Spunding Valve if I can't crash cool the entire batch before transferring to serving kegs?

I was thinking the value for me would be not having to mess with the swamp cooler/ice bottle situation (ester control) and also using the Spunding valve to add a little sparkle (ie free carbonation) to my beer at the end of fermenting.

Anybody else in my situation but employing this technique?

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I don't know that crash cooling is any more or any less necessary with pressurized fermentation than it is with non-pressurized fermentation. A cold crash will get your yeast cake nice and compact, so you might need to consider cutting your diptube a bit if you plan on skipping the crash. That may or may not be necessary, so I'd give it a few trial batches before doing anything permanent. Otherwise, I see no problem. One of the advantages of pressurized fermentation is shorter turn-around time. You'd be undercutting that a bit without a cold crash, but that's only a problem if you're in a hurry.

That said, temperature control is still very important, even though you can stand to be a few degrees warmer. If you get a cold swing towards the end of fermentation, you'll still be vulnerable to underattenuation.

lagavulin said:

Hey guys,

So for reasons unbeknownst to me, my relief valve (mcmaster 99045K46) has started leaking.

Does anyone have alternative valve recommendations? $37 is pricey for a piece of equipment that has been lightly handled, sustained no trauma and hasn't lasted 2 years....

Cheers!

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Try taking it apart and cleaning in soap and water. They're pretty simple...but the least bit of gunk will cause them to leak.

Theres a brass one that goes to 100psi at Grainger, a little cheaper and definitely more robust. I agree though that all you need to do is loosen the spring up all the way and clean it out. You know theres going to be a little bit of something in the seal area.

lagavulin said:

Hey guys,

So for reasons unbeknownst to me, my relief valve (mcmaster 99045K46) has started leaking.

Does anyone have alternative valve recommendations? $37 is pricey for a piece of equipment that has been lightly handled, sustained no trauma and hasn't lasted 2 years....



Cheers!

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What I use:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/CDI-CONTROL-DEVICES-Variable-Pressure-Relief-4TK26

Cold crashing in this case really helps transferring for me.
Other than the benefits of a compact yeast cake and a clear beer transfer; it drops the pressure in the keg significantly. It will take 25psi down to about 7psi; so I can counter pressure transfer with less CO2 and at lower pressure.

Jknapp said:

O. M. G. What an epic thread!

I just got done reading this entire thread and I have a question that isn't answered here..

I'm an Ale brewer only. I keg my beers, but serve out of 3 gal kegs. I normally ferment in an Ale Pail, but I have a functioning 10 gallon Corny. I don't have the ability to crash cool my entire batch - 10 gal corny won't fit in my beverage fridge..

So, I ask - is there any value for a brewer like me in Closed System Pressurized Fermenting with a Spunding Valve if I can't crash cool the entire batch before transferring to serving kegs?

I was thinking the value for me would be not having to mess with the swamp cooler/ice bottle situation (ester control) and also using the Spunding valve to add a little sparkle (ie free carbonation) to my beer at the end of fermenting.

Anybody else in my situation but employing this technique?

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My biggest complaint of this process is the junk I get in my glass. It wasn't terrible, just that it took a lot of not so perfect pours before it cleared up. Last time I brewed, hops plugged my keg dip tube, so I got some cool filter screens for transferring wort to the fermenter to get as much junk out as possible. Cutting the dip tube of the fermenter keg about 1/2" is next on my list.

Just remember that you can always transfer the chilled 5 gal keg to another at any time. So technically transferring warm from the 10 gal keg and then adding gelatin and chilling for a week with the line connected to even up the pressure and then transferring to a clean keg would give you good results.

I'll take it apart tonight -- thanks for the insight.


Cheers!

This thread is so large so I'm not sure if it was asked. Can you use the pressure from the keg to push the beer through a filter on the way to the keg? Or would I still need another source of Co2?

CoalCracker said:

This thread is so large so I'm not sure if it was asked. Can you use the pressure from the keg to push the beer through a filter on the way to the keg? Or would I still need another source of Co2?

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I guess if you took a cold pressurized keg and ran it through a filter and into an empty keg with a relief valve set to a little below the pressure of the full keg, it would probably do the job. Then you could adjust the relief valve a little as you go to make up for the pressure drops of the co2 coming out of suspension. The problem though is that the receiving keg would fill with beer that is being flattened as the co2 is coming out of suspension and would foam up some. Worth a try to experiment though.

I think you'll find you would run out of pressure. There isn't a lot of head space in a corny fermentor so the amount of extra pressure is minimal. You'd need a CO2 tank to push it.

CoalCracker said:

This thread is so large so I'm not sure if it was asked. Can you use the pressure from the keg to push the beer through a filter on the way to the keg? Or would I still need another source of Co2?

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I think it would be possible to do this without a CO2 source but I have never tried it. Lets say your final pressure is around 35psi at 70degrees in the primary keg. Cap your empty serving keg and connect your two liquid terminals. You will get a lot of foam in your empty keg at first but eventually the pressure in both will equalize. Wait a while for the foam to drop and then slowly vent the serving keg until all liquid transfers. I would suspect that your final pressure will be under 15psi at 70degrees. Your beer will end up a little flat due to this process so you should probably add a little priming sugar before you start and wait for it to do its magic. Or only do this to lightly carbonated brews.
Good luck!

CoalCracker said:

This thread is so large so I'm not sure if it was asked. Can you use the pressure from the keg to push the beer through a filter on the way to the keg? Or would I still need another source of Co2?

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I've accidentally done this when I thought my CO2 tank was on and it wasn't. The beer filtered just fine and filled the serving keg fine but then ran out of steam. Then I noticed my valve was closed.

Depending on how much volume of beer you're talking it may work but obviously at the expense of beer carbonation.

You could overshoot your expected volume of CO2 at your fermentation temp, cold crash then let the beer push itself through the filter and hope your final CO2 volume is correct. But you may squeeze the yeast too much and not fully attenuate.

I think you're better off having a tank...

If you had 2.5gal of beer in a 5gal corny, you'd drop the pressure in the head space by half in the process of moving that beer out. If you had enough pressure that there was still enough to overcome the filter resistance at the end, the beer would move. Of course as your pressure is dropping, the resistance of the filter is increasing due to stuff accumulating on the filter media. The problem is worse when you have 4gal in a 5gal vessel. At that point moving the beer out will lower the pressure by a factor of 5, so you'd need to start with 5x the pressure required to push the beer through the filter. I'm guessing you need 10psi to push the last of the beer through a filter. After all, you need 4psi just to run beer through a hose into your glass at a decent rate. So to have 10psi at the end of transfer you'd need 50psi in the corny. Thats a little much for a corny and certainly too much to be getting through spunding. I've read that at 40+PSI all yeast activity stops.

http://e-z-caps.com/

Seems to imply they are spunding.

I came across this in a totally unrelated search!

Brewed my 1st batch with a spunding valve 2.5 weeks ago. Its already kegged and tastes great! It was an Apricot Wheat - I know, I know - wheats are good beers to get through a system fast, BUT, I've never turned around a beer this fast. I brewed it and 10 days later kegged it. Tastes great. No esters, no green taste. Very, very clean actually.
I "no-chilled" from kettle into a 10 gal corney, seated the lid with 25 psi and rolled it around to sanitize. Next day, pitched a starter, hit it with 5 psi. For 36 hours I left my spunding valve set to 5psi (although in that timeframe after CO2 absorbed, the gauge dropped and read in the 1-2 psi range). Each day after that I increased the pressure slightly ending on day 10 at which point the psi began to drop signifying absorbtion. Took a hydro reading and a taste. I hit my final number and transferred to keg. I didnt cold crash.
I brewed a batch of Ed Worts Robust Porter last weekend.. We'll see if that one turns around as fast. I really think this could be the way to go!

Using this technique now to streamline my process. I put a 10gal batch of CZ Pils into two 5gal Cornies.

For pressure relief I'm using something that we sell in the 4WD industry. These devices are automatic tire deflators, which are actually adjustable low pressure relief valves. We use them to deflate tires for more traction when climbing obstacles. These ones run about 40 bucks for 4 of them, which makes it easily affordable for homebrewing. I've got them hooked into the system with 'snifter valves' that came from the plumbing section of my local hardware store. I've got about 30 bucks into each of my spunding valves. So far I'm enjoying the closed fermentation technique.

Good to still hear positives about everyone's progress with the technique. Jamil didn't have anything good to say about it, but it seems to make great beer and is very streamlined.

What did Jamil have to say about it?

lud said:

What did Jamil have to say about it?

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Jamil isn't the end all be all of the brewing world. if he didn't like it then that's fine...for him. those that try it and love it.. GREAT! If someone tries it and it isn't working for them and they go back to the way that works for them then that's fine too. I would be interested in finding out if Jamil even tried it or if he just dismissed the entire idea. But as far as what he had to say, that doesn't really matter in the long run

Couldn't agree with you more...but still would like to hear what others have to say about it. All I've heard are the positives...

One of the greatest advantages in my opinion is that by maintaining positive pressure, temperature changes keep the pressure above 0. I don't like it when I age for weeks with an airlock and air bubbles in at night and out daytime. Once CO2 production has ceased, dropping even a fraction of a degree, within the limits of all common temp control methods, will pull oxygen into the headspace above the beer. This is not good. Using a spund prevents this. Win win. Plus you can do all the other neat stuff like 15psi ferments and natural carbng if you want to. It's my main reason about the positive pressure that convinced me that it was a no-brainer to build a spund setup.

Again...I've heard,read, and seen the advantages...has anyone experienced/read about any negative effects?

lud said:

Again...I've heard,read, and seen the advantages...has anyone experienced/read about any negative effects?

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I heard the podcast where Jamil talked about it recently, though I can't remember which one it is off hand. He didn't have anything particularly bad to say about it, but his response was more "why bother?".

He said you'd get lower ester production under pressure, which is desirable for some styles and not for others, but of course you can bump ester production back up by increasing temps by a few degrees. Otherwise, he didn't indicate that pressurized fermentation would give you better or worse beer.

I'm inclined to agree with that view. I've been thrilled with pressurized fermentation because it streamlines my process tremendously. For others (like Jamil apparently), the advantages might not outweigh the slight added complexity. But that's the punchline: all the advantages and disadvantages you'll get from pressurized fermentation are really only about how it fits in with the rest of your process.

I've tried to find that podcast, but couldn't....thanks though!

lud said:

I've tried to find that podcast, but couldn't....thanks though!

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It's one of the BrewStrong Q&As, though I can't say for sure which one. I wouldn't look too hard. It's like an 8 second answer, the entire content of which is: "don't see the point, but no harm to it; less ester production".

Thanks man...

Okay, I’ll come clean…

I have to say that after my experiences with SV fermenting I somewhat agree with Jamil’s “Why bother” comment. I did about 8-10 pressurized ferments in cornies (even raved about the cool new approach on this thread!) and while I didn’t have a bad batch (at least not specifically due to the pressure ferment), I can’t say that my beer was any better. My last 5 or 6 batches I’ve gone back to regular fermenting. To me I felt the only advantage was being able to carb the beer naturally and essentially have a quicker beer. But if you have a good enough pipeline you generally don’t need a quick beer. I can still rack over to a keg after a week, add some sugar and let the yeast carb it up naturally if I want.

I am happy that I experimented and may even pull the setup back out sometime whenever I need a grain to glass beer in 14 days, but the majority of my primary ferments will only see the pressure of an inch of water in my airlocks from now on.

Here’s the major reasons why I stopped:

-I used corny kegs. It was difficult to ferment a batch that I could end up with 5 gallons of drinkable beer. This meant that kegs were kicking slightly more often.

-When I pushed the limits of volume, I got blowoff that I had to then clean out of tubing, filter housing, spunding valve, etc. Fermcap-S and a little bit of head pressure helped, but if for whatever reason the pressure dropped to zero in the first few days, I had blowoff to deal with for the next week. Which leads me to the next point:

-Pressure was tough to maintain with my cheapo spunding valve. One day it wouldnt regulate any pressure and with a quarter turn of the adjustment valve it would shoot up to 20 psi. Since I already spent the money I wasnt going to buy a better one after the fact.

-Cornies with crusty krausens and break material are a PITA to get completely clean. I can have a used bucket fermenter completely clean in 5 minutes with hot water and a soft rag or sponge.

-I was using more CO2 (unnecessarily) to transfer from ferment keg to serving keg. My beers are generally consumed quickly enough that I don’t have to worry about oxidation from regular racking practices.

-Less cornies available in rotation for upcoming beers or long term storage of wines/meads/ciders. This wasn’t a problem at the time (I have 11 cornies available in rotation) but if that pipeline gets big enough I would be purchasing more.

Please note that these are the reasons why I personally stopped, and different people with different equipment and processes may not have the same issues. It mostly just came back to the added complexity of the process for me. Sure I could go out and spend $300 dollars on sanke kegs, triclamp fermenting adaptors, higher end valves and pressure gauges, but at the end of the day I would rather spend the money on my next bulk grain/hops purchase.

To each his own I guess....

I personally would not do this with small batches fermenting. I like the bigger Sanke I use for my process.

kpr121 said:

Okay, I’ll come clean…

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I dig it man. It's not for every circumstance, but ironically I've actually loved the process for many of the same reasons you cite.

I brew in a Manhattan apartment, and every square-foot of brew-stuff I keep may as well be paying $3/month rent. Plus, I was fighting a pernicious wild yeast infection that I couldn't for the life of me track down. I love the fact that my beer goes from kettle to bottle without exposure to air or contact with anything but stainless steel and sterilizable tubing. The fact that I barely need to refill my CO2 tank now (which is a PITA in NYC) is a bonus.

I ferment in cornys and get about 44-45 12oz bottles from a batch, which is just a smidge below standard. I fill to the weld line, use fermcap, and typically get about 2-6oz of blowoff. Cleanup is actually pretty easy with a water-trap between the keg and the spunding valve.

But, the benefits are only benefits if they solve problems. If the things that pressurized fermentation avoids didn't seem like problems in the first place, I probably wouldn't bother either.

The new Onderbrew system released at the Aha conference ferments very well under pressure Chris White was very helpful and had alot of good things to say.

I have first and second batch going right now. First one should be ready for transfer to final keg this sat. we shall see how it tastes after 2 weeks

onederbrew said:

The new Onderbrew system released at the Aha conference ferments very well under pressure Chris White was very helpful and had alot of good things to say.

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It's a neat idea, and seems to be well implemented. If you ever make a steel one, I'll snatch it up in a second.

I initially brewed a Blonde Ale and everything went well. I do need a blow-off for the first day or two, even though I used Fermcap during the transfer from pot to keg. I have transferred the Blonde Ale to a second keg and was amazed at how clean the yeast was and enjoyed the taste of a carbed beer from the primary. It is now under gas and I will be enjoying it in another week.

My second beer under this system is an Imperial IPA. Big blow-off from this one even though I used Fermcap again, and the ferment was vigorous. Primary ferment has subsided and my spunding valve is set at 10psi. Gonna let it set for another week and then put it in keezer for cold crash of 2 weeks.

Both batches were done with Nottingham yeast, and in 5 gallon cornie kegs.

Not sure if I should be getting better result from the Fermcap, but it seems like it could work a little better. I know that I shouldn't expect too much from it when it comes to a 1.080 beer. Just seems other people get better results with it than I do.

Anyway....here is a pic of my Imperial IPA in the cornie keg.