1st All-Grain a DISASTER!

I was so excited yesterday to get my grains from UPS yesterday I decided I couldn't wait until Sunday to brew and I had to do it last night. It all went well until I needed to sparge. I drained my mash water, put in about 2 gallons for my first sparge and let it drain. So far so good. My second sparge of about 2 gallons is where It all went wrong. Nothing would drain from my MLT. I assumed that I had a stuck sparge and not knowing what to do I stuck my stir spoon down into my cooler and gave it a stir and tried to scrape any grains off my stainless braid. This worked for a little bit but the sparge became all cloudy and grainy (luckily I put the output hose in a measuring cup and not the keggle).

At that point It was getting late, I could think of no solution and I just wanted to finish that I decided to just boil what I had (about 4 gallons) and add my additions as planned. So after the hour boil I ended up with roughly 2.75 gallons of 1.086 wort instead of the 5.5 gallons of 1.056 I intended. I pitched the Wyeast 1056 and hoped for the best. When I got home from work today it has started to bubble already. I have no idea how this is going to taste in the end but it was my 1st all-grain and it can only get better from here on out.

Some questions I have are:

I did a cooler conversion via FlyGuys thread and the conversion itself is leak proof but I'm questioning the stainless braid method. I did insert notched vinyl tubing to prevent the braid from collapsing but I feel that a copper or CPVC manifold system is better. Any thoughts?

Also how does one effectively unstick a sparge?

Thanks and I really hope to solve this problem since I'm brewing another batch on Sunday.

cellardoor said:

I was so excited yesterday to get my grains from UPS yesterday I decided I couldn't wait until Sunday to brew and I had to do it last night. It all went well until I needed to sparge. I drained my mash water, put in about 2 gallons for my first sparge and let it drain. So far so good. My second sparge of about 2 gallons is where It all went wrong. Nothing would drain from my MLT. I assumed that I had a stuck sparge and not knowing what to do I stuck my stir spoon down into my cooler and gave it a stir and tried to scrape any grains off my stainless braid. This worked for a little bit but the sparge became all cloudy and grainy (luckily I put the output hose in a measuring cup and not the keggle).

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Yep, you had a stuck sparge. Stirring and trying to drain again helps. Just give the grain bed a few minutes to settle, and recirculate the wort back into the lauter tun until it runs clear(ish).

cellardoor said:

At that point It was getting late, I could think of no solution and I just wanted to finish that I decided to just boil what I had (about 4 gallons) and add my additions as planned. So after the hour boil I ended up with roughly 2.75 gallons of 1.086 wort instead of the 5.5 gallons of 1.056 I intended. I pitched the Wyeast 1056 and hoped for the best. When I got home from work today it has started to bubble already. I have no idea how this is going to taste in the end but it was my 1st all-grain and it can only get better from here on out.

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It will have a higher ABV and less emphasis on hops, due to the relatively high gravity. It should certainly be drinkable, and probably pretty good.

cellardoor said:

Some questions I have are:

I did a cooler conversion via FlyGuys thread and the conversion itself is leak proof but I'm questioning the stainless braid method. I did insert notched vinyl tubing to prevent the braid from collapsing but I feel that a copper or CPVC manifold system is better. Any thoughts?

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I've always used a braid with no reinforcement. Where did you buy the braid? Lowe's has actual stainless braided toilet connectors. Home Depot has some that are braided plastic that only looks like stainless steel, and are notorious for collapsing, resulting in stuck mashes.

cellardoor said:

Also how does one effectively unstick a sparge?

Thanks and I really hope to solve this problem since I'm brewing another batch on Sunday.

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You were on the way. Stirring up the grain bed can be helpful. Sometimes, all it takes is to blow back into the hose until you see bubbles in the mash.

Yup, stuck sparge. Sounds like you did everything you could... I don't use bazooka screen for that exact reason. I went with a false bottom in my igloo cooler from Adventures in Homebrewing... havent had a stuck sparge yet! Maybe if you find that you're ending up with alot of stuck sparges, try just trickling in on top and trickling off your sweet liquer so that you're not creating so much suction on your mash. Keep about an inch or so of water on the grain bed and you should be able to keep the mash nice and loose. Good luck!!!

jds said:

I've always used a braid with no reinforcement. Where did you buy the braid? Lowe's has actual stainless braided toilet connectors. Home Depot has some that are braided plastic that only looks like stainless steel, and are notorious for collapsing, resulting in stuck mashes.

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Yup it's a stainless braid but I read somewhere on the FlyGuy cooler conversion thread the notched vinyl can help prevent collapsing of the braid. Maybe on Sunday I'll try it without the vinyl.

jds said:

You were on the way. Stirring up the grain bed can be helpful. Sometimes, all it takes is to blow back into the hose until you see bubbles in the mash.

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Blowing bubbles back into the mash is a good idea. Thanks for the idea. I also was vorlaufing after stirring but flow would stop immediately after I stopped stirring from the bottom of the tun. I was also wondering about sparging technique. Since i don't have a fancy sparge arm I pretty much just dumped the 2 gallons of sparge water on top of the grainbed. Was the the right thing to do or should I have poured it slowly or maybe through a colander?

Thanks for the help already.

You could have diluted the "super" wort with 1.5 gallons of water. Then you would have 4.25 gallons of wort @ 1.056.

I would also think about switching to a manifold, either copper or pvc. They can't collapse, i've never had a stuck sparge with pvc.

wildwest450 said:

You could have diluted the "super" wort with 1.5 gallons of water. Then you would have 4.25 gallons of wort @ 1.056.

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I thought about that, but this was my first time being capable of a full boil so dammit I'm not topping off anything

wildwest450 said:

You could have diluted the "super" wort with 1.5 gallons of water. Then you would have 4.25 gallons of wort @ 1.056.

I would also think about switching to a manifold, either copper or pvc. They can't collapse, i've never had a stuck sparge with pvc.

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I use a stainless braid from a water heater connector. I made a 1.1ish barleywine and no noticeable crushing. I am sure I could crush it if I tried, but no grain is going to.

cellardoor said:

Yup it's a stainless braid but I read somewhere on the FlyGuy cooler conversion thread the notched vinyl can help prevent collapsing of the braid. Maybe on Sunday I'll try it without the vinyl.

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If you are going to use a plastic braid, then you need to either reinforce it with tubing stiffer than vinyl (it gets too pliable when soft), or put a piece of slotted copper tubing inside it (easier and cheaper than making a manifold).

One thing you might try is re-using the original tubing that was inside the braid to begin with. But it will only work if it is very stiff.

Personally, I would just toss the plastic braid and get a good, quality stainless braid. I found them at my local Rona (like a Canadian Lowes) for about $4.

Sorry to hear that you had stuck sparge woes -- perhaps I need to add some notes in BIG RED LETTERS not to use plastic braids.

just toss in 2 or 3 handfuls of rice hulls when you dough in. they are dirt cheap and pretty much eliminate stuck sparges.

FlyGuy said:

Sorry to hear that you had stuck sparge woes -- perhaps I need to add some notes in BIG RED LETTERS not to use plastic braids.

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It is a stainless steel braid that I'm using (I made sure of that) and I modified it with the notched vinyl as in your picture here



I think I'll just get a small piece of copper pipe and cut slits in it and attach that with a small piece of tubing to the barb on the inside of the cooler. If I'm batch sparging a straight piece of copper is going to work just fine.

Sorry to hear about your stuck sparge bro, these things can really put a damper on a good brew day! This is one reason why i don't do batch sparging, because when you drain out all the liquor in your MLT you have a greater chance of the grain bed collapsing on you. I don't know if this is what happened or not, but next time try a fly sparge and see what happens. I would also recommend changing out your braid for a slotted copper tube. I have a 4 foot length of 3/8 tubing with slots cut in the bottom with a hacksaw, 6 years and dozens of brews----not one stuck sparge.

cellardoor said:

It is a stainless steel braid that I'm using (I made sure of that) and I modified it with the notched vinyl as in your picture here

I think I'll just get a small piece of copper pipe and cut slits in it and attach that with a small piece of tubing to the barb on the inside of the cooler. If I'm batch sparging a straight piece of copper is going to work just fine.

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Well, if you get a piece of copper I am sure you will be golden. I still can't imagine how a SS braid can collapse, but I suppose they are not all built the same. Regardless, they really are the way to go -- that SS mesh really does a fantastic job of filtering the wort (when they don't collapse), ensuring a quicker vorlauf and lautering.

Cellardoor- I've had very positive results with just a coil of stiff wire slipped into the braid.

That puppy isn't about to collapse...

I'll say it again because it is true... Using very hot sparge water water will solve most stuck mashes (prevent) if you are batch sparging.

What was your grain bill ? I have used my SS braid without anything inside it for 15 brews some with 25+ lbs of grain never a crushed braid or stuck sparge. Sometimes the crush is to fine and you end up with a lot of flour and some grains just have a tendency to cause stuck sparges this is when rice hulls should be added to the grain.

cellardoor said:

I think I'll just get a small piece of copper pipe and cut slits in it and attach that with a small piece of tubing to the barb on the inside of the cooler. If I'm batch sparging a straight piece of copper is going to work just fine.

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Just leave that vinyl hose out, and you'll be fine.

I had the same problem with the same exact setup. The next time I brewed I pulled the tube out of the braid and I haven't had a problem since. It has not collapsed and no stuck sparge since I pulled the tube out.

lustreking said:

Just leave that vinyl hose out, and you'll be fine.

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+1 I never used anything inside the braid and it has been fine. The only modification I might make is to put in a SS spring or coil some SS wire to help reinforce it (for the large grain bills that might collapse it) That is probably not necessary though as I've had no stuck sparges.

Yup, the braid works without anything inside but as mentioned, a coil of copper wire would be cheap insurance. How hot was your sparge water?

Cellardoor:
Stuck sparges usually result from a crush that is too fine. Stainless braid, copper manifold, and false bottoms all work fine if the crush is appropriate for your system. I have used stainless braids for seven years. I just completed a 30 gallon IPA with OG=1.072. The mash was over 90 pounds of grain. I used a stainless mesh with NO support on the inside. The mesh did not collapse.

Here is my advice:
Remove the plastic tubing from your stainless mesh
Keep your process simple. Here is ONE way to do it:
Mash in with 1.5 quarts per pound of grain
Mash X 60 min
Vorlauf and drain mash tun
Add 1 quart per pound sparge water and stir mash
Vorlauf and drain mash tun
Top off boil kettle if needed
Boil & ferment & carbonate & drink

There is nothing wrong with topping of your wort to reach the desired proboil volume and specific gravity. Have fun!

There are definitely two camps emerging on whether to use a piece of tubing inside a SS braid. Some swear by it and others are convinced it does more harm than good.

I think this underscores a general principle in homebrewing -- try different things and use what works best for you. What works for someone is not always going to work for another.

The nice thing here is that the cost of a piece of tubing is negligible, so anyone give it a try.

I recommend starting with a plain braid first, and if that gives problem, try inserting some STIFF tubing (possibly even copper) if you think your braid needs reinforcing. It is absolutely clear from the collective experience of homebrewers here that not all SS braid is created equally and some types definitely seem more prone to collapsing than others.

Thanks so much for all the replies. My grain bill was 11.75lbs in a 5 gallon rubbermaid (it was free otherwise i would have gotten the 10 gallon) so the grain bed was pretty deep. I hit my mash temp right on at 155 and my sparge water was about 2 gallons of 169 (x2) or whatever the Beersmith printout told me to do. I didn't stir it very well in between sparges so theres one problem right there. I got my grains from AHS and I don't know what a good crush looks like but to me it looked good. All the husks looked cracked open with a decent amount of flour in the bag. Once again i have no idea how much flour is correct but it didn't look excessive.

For Sundays brewday I will take out the vinyl tube and see how it goes from there. If that doesn't work I'll pick up some copper wire or a stainless spring or something. I have confidence that by the the end of the year i'll be 4 batches into all-grain and my system will be working perfectly

My first AG was an equal disaster and I was using a 10g Rubbermaid cooler with a false bottom and as it turned out the culprit was the grains had made their way underneath the false bottom and into the tube that drained out of the cooler. I blew air and still nada. I wound up scooping out the grains in a strainer and collecting the wort that way. Since I batch sparge I got a Coleman Extreme 70qt and a Bazooka screen and no more stuck sparges and no collapsed Bazooka screen.

get rid of that rubber tube in the braid

If it gets stuck just blow in it. It seems with mine that it is more of a siphon issue when I get a stuck sparge. As soon as the wort starts flowing it seems to pull the rest out the MLT. Use rice hulls too if you are using wheat. The only time I get a stuck sparge is when I make a hefe with six pound of wheat and cheap out by not using enough rice hulls or I realize too late that I only have half a bag or something.

Blowing in the drain hose always fixes it instantly! It's pre-boil so don't worry about sanitation. I wouldn't stick the hose in your butt and fart though!

you dont need notched Vinly I use mine without an do 10 gallon batches

cellardoor said:

Thanks so much for all the replies. My grain bill was 11.75lbs in a 5 gallon rubbermaid (it was free otherwise i would have gotten the 10 gallon) so the grain bed was pretty deep. I hit my mash temp right on at 155 and my sparge water was about 2 gallons of 169 (x2) or whatever the Beersmith printout told me to do. I didn't stir it very well in between sparges so theres one problem right there. I got my grains from AHS and I don't know what a good crush looks like but to me it looked good. All the husks looked cracked open with a decent amount of flour in the bag. Once again i have no idea how much flour is correct but it didn't look excessive.

For Sundays brewday I will take out the vinyl tube and see how it goes from there. If that doesn't work I'll pick up some copper wire or a stainless spring or something. I have confidence that by the the end of the year i'll be 4 batches into all-grain and my system will be working perfectly

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Here are my observations. They are worth exactly what you paid for them:

1. I've had no problems with crushed grain from AHS, so I'd guess crush isn't the problem here.
2. I've gone as high as 16 lbs of grain in a 5 gallon igloo, which pretty much maxes it out.
3. I sparge hotter than that -- 175 to 180 F. Tannin extraction is reportedly less of a problem when batch sparging, and improves efficency and lautering.
4. Rice hulls are your friend.

So, my suggestions would be to lose the vinyl insert in the braid, sparge at 175F (or consider a mashout infusion), and pitch in a quarter to half pound of rice hulls. I bet if you do those things, it'll lauter as fast as you're willing to let it.

I've had good luck clearing stuck sparges by blasting a short burst of water back through the MLT ball valve. Usually knocks the stuck particles loose and frees things up enough that I can finish the sparge.

I wrapped a piece of stainless welding wire around a pencil to form a spring and inserted it in my toilet braid.Works like a charm.

RayInUT said:

Blowing in the drain hose always fixes it instantly! It's pre-boil so don't worry about sanitation. I wouldn't stick the hose in your butt and fart though!

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LOL. Ill add that to my notes when I step up to AG

I FINALLY got around to brewing my second all grain. I took all the suggestions to heart, removed the vinyl hose in my braid and was ready for any stuck sparge I may get. I did Yooper's DFH 60 minute clone. The 14lbs of grain would be about the max I could fit into my 5 gallon MLT and my mash was very thick. I didn't hit my mash temp right on the first time so I had to drain a bit from the tun and reheat it until I hit my desired temp but besides that it went perfectly. Sparging went perfectly and I could open up the valve as much or as little as I want and the mash water would just flow right on through. I hit the OG a little low @ 1.068 and only got about 4.5 gallons into the fermentor. I don't mind the 2 points off in gravity but I know the low volume is just from me not knowing the boil off rate from my keggle since it's only the 2nd time I've used it. But I can now say that my equipment worked as its supposed to and I'm happy as hell to have my second AG a success. From start to cleanup it was a bit less than 6 hours so I was happy at that as well.

Thanks everyone for all the help and advice. Now I've got 2 more recipes ready to go once a fermentor opens up some nice gift certificates to AHS to keep the pipeline going.

And as an update to the batch this thread was about. I haven't touched it since last night. Gravity is at 1.030 which is a little higher than I expected. I dry hoped it with 1.75oz of hops as directed in the original recipe. I tasted the gravity sample and it tasted surprisingly neutral in flavor except for a bit sweet because of the gravity. Not sure what to expect from it at this point but it's not a total loss.