Lambic (BOS, 3rd BOS and Two Golds)

This is an interesting discussion. I hope you dont mind a short hijack of the thread but I have some sour questions I have been trying to getting answers too. I don't know any sour brewers (well, I might know some sour brewers but none who brew sours). I am trying to figure out when is the right time to bottle and how much carbonation it should have. I have a sour going since August of last year. It started as a dilution of a strong dark ale wort fermented about half with a belgian ale yeast and then I added dregs from two bottles of lambic and a flemish red. I let that go for a month or two and then added 6 lbs of lightly crushed grapes off my vines to two gallons. I tasted it at about 3 and now at 6 mos. The first time it was nice and sour, good fruit and complex but had a lot of fusel alcohol taste at the end (at least I think that's what it was). At 6 mos most of that was gone and the brett flavors were developing. The sourness is still up front but blending with the complex fruit and other flavors. So, with that, how would you decide when to bottle?

I would probably go with a combo of gravity and flavor. If the gravity is very, very near 1.00 and you're happy with the flavor, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to bottle. Just be careful with the gravity, because the Brett will keep munching until there's about no sugars left, which can lead to exploding bottles if you bottle too early.

Logistics question here. I have 5 gallons of this in a bucket and I have yet to transfer it to a glass carboy. The plan is to lift the lid a little bit, add some tubing to the buckets spigot and turn it on. I have been planning on reusing the yeast cake at the bottom but I wonder what I should do if there is a hard pellicle? Do I just pour the new wort on top of it and shake it all up as I would a normal batch of beer?

Read the thread and I didn't see it answered, perhaps I missed it.

To the OP, did you bottle without any priming sugar and just use some of the natural stirred up yeast to let it carb up? Or did you add priming sugar?

HarkinBanks said:

To the OP, did you bottle without any priming sugar and just use some of the natural stirred up yeast to let it carb up? Or did you add priming sugar?

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I usually don't add extra yeast, but it is cheap insurance. And yes, you always add priming sugar.

AmandaK said:

I usually don't add extra yeast, but it is cheap insurance. And yes, you always add priming sugar.

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The guy who asked the question brings up a good point, Lambic producers never use priming sugar, but Americans are stuck on the idea. Cantilllon, for example, bottles with no sugar or yeast and let the bottles sit for six months in vaults. The yeast continues to work, providing carbonation. That's why guezes, containing some young lambic, are traditionally much more carbonated then straight lambics, which are typically older vintages with less residual sugar. thus, the BJCP guidelines

I do think for a straight lambic like this, I would use priming sugar. When I get to a gueze, however, I'll keep tradition and skip it.

bellmtbbq said:

When I get to a gueze, however, I'll keep tradition and skip it.

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I tried that with my gueuze. It's still uncarbonated after 3 months in the bottle. Can't say I would do that again.

bellmtbbq said:

The guy who asked the question brings up a good point, Lambic producers never use priming sugar, but Americans are stuck on the idea. Cantilllon, for example, bottles with no sugar or yeast and let the bottles sit for six months in vaults. The yeast continues to work, providing carbonation. That's why guezes, containing some young lambic, are traditionally much more carbonated then straight lambics, which are typically older vintages with less residual sugar. thus, the BJCP guidelines

I do think for a straight lambic like this, I would use priming sugar. When I get to a gueze, however, I'll keep tradition and skip it.

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If you produce a lot of the exact same wort and have a resident microflora that you can count on to always attenuate your wort to the same gravity each and every time, this would be a fun way to bottle in the traditional method. However, for many homebrewers each batch is slightly (or a lot) different than the previous due to equipment changes, process variations or recipe tweaking. This makes it difficult to know exactly where the terminal gravity might end up, which would cause a lot of variation in carbonation levels after bottling, with some batches producing still pLambic and others producing bottle bombs. That's a bit of a risk for something you waited over a year to bottle.

ocluke said:

If you produce a lot of the exact same wort and have a resident microflora that you can count on to always attenuate your wort to the same gravity each and every time, this would be a fun way to bottle in the traditional method. However, for many homebrewers each batch is slightly (or a lot) different than the previous due to equipment changes, process variations or recipe tweaking. This makes it difficult to know exactly where the terminal gravity might end up, which would cause a lot of variation in carbonation levels after bottling, with some batches producing still pLambic and others producing bottle bombs. That's a bit of a risk for something you waited over a year to bottle.

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Yea, Im going to brew the same grain bill three times, use my house culture, etc. then it's just math to figure bout how many points of gravity you need

Zippox said:

Logistics question here. I have 5 gallons of this in a bucket and I have yet to transfer it to a glass carboy. The plan is to lift the lid a little bit, add some tubing to the buckets spigot and turn it on. I have been planning on reusing the yeast cake at the bottom but I wonder what I should do if there is a hard pellicle? Do I just pour the new wort on top of it and shake it all up as I would a normal batch of beer?

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Sorry to quote myself but would anyone be able to help me decide a best option? I'll be brewing the second 5 gallons tomorrow.

Not really a nice way to say this, but the OP'd beer's comp success may be indicative of the reluctance of people to enter excellent beers they have months or years invested in and that/or that most judges know nothing about Lambic. Not saying the OP didnt make a great extract Lambic, but it does make me wonder.

TNGabe said:

Not really a nice way to say this, but the OP'd beer's comp success may be indicative of the reluctance of people to enter excellent beers they have months or years invested in and that/or that most judges know nothing about Lambic. Not saying the OP didnt make a great extract Lambic, but it does make me wonder.

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Thanks Gabe.

For those who care, yes, sours is usually quite a small category. (So is Dark Lagers.) Have I won much larger categories with my sours? Yes. I received a blue ribbon at the Indiana State Fair - 1071 entries total - in Fruit Beers for another sour. (Fruit beers usually have more entries than Sours.) Also, our club has quite a few Master & National level judges who claw at me for a sample. Some judges have found me at a comp after finding out it was mine to ask me about it and if they can have another bottle. (Which is probably the best complement a brewer could get.)

This beer also went to the Mini-BOS in the second round of Nationals last year. Those judges must have no experience whatsoever to be able to judge at Nationals, right?

More importantly. I love this beer, and that's all the proof I need.

Thanks for contributing TNGabe.

TNGabe said:

Not really a nice way to say this, but the OP'd beer's comp success may be indicative of the reluctance of people to enter excellent beers they have months or years invested in and that/or that most judges know nothing about Lambic. Not saying the OP didnt make a great extract Lambic, but it does make me wonder.

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I'm a little with Gabe, and I've made it pretty clear to the OP over the past few months through posts. While its possible she made a great lambic with extract, I wonder how good it could be with the Wyeast Lambic blend. Honestly... The stuff is pretty piss poor. Dregs had to have a big impact. Hell, some awesome brewers with all grain set ups and super bugs can't make a great traditional lambic.

I know lots of top sour brewers who don't enter their beers because they know the judges judging sour beer are full of crap and that they'd rather enjoy those bottles then give them away.

I'm not debating that the OPs lambic wasn't great, I'm just thinking she had great luck with her setup and a bunch people are going to make this and be very disappointed and/or make dishwater.

bellmtbbq said:

I'm a little with Gabe, and I've made it pretty clear to the OP over the past few months through posts. While its possible she made a great lambic with extract, I wonder how good it could be with the Wyeast Lambic blend. Honestly... The stuff is pretty piss poor. Dregs had to have a big impact. Hell, some awesome brewers with all grain set ups and super bugs can't make a great traditional lambic.

I know lots of top sour brewers who don't enter their beers because they know the judges judging sour beer are full of crap and that they'd rather enjoy those bottles then give them away.

I'm not debating that the OPs lambic wasn't great, I'm just thinking she had great luck with her setup and a bunch people are going to make this and be very disappointed and/or make dishwater.

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Time table:
November 2010 - brewed
December 2010 - transferred to secondary in glass
February 2012 - bottled one carboy
March 2012 - Best of Show at the Drunk Monk Challenge, best of ~850 beers
April 2012 - Champion of the Pint Comp: Gold in Sours & 3rd Best of Show
May 2012 - NHC First Round - Chicago: Blue Ribbon in Sours
June 2012 - Went to the Mini-BOS in Sours at the final round of the NHC - Judges main critque: "Drinks a bit young, re-enter next year. Please."
November 2012 - 2nd in Sours at the Land of the Muddy Waters

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I think her results speak clearly and loudly for them self.

Anyone who wins Drunk Monk and advances a beer to the 2nd round of NHC has my full and undivided attention.

I guess the judges at NHC or Drunk Monk can't interpret the BJCP guidelines for sour ales and apply them to a competition?

I don't doubt the dregs added to her lambic. Many of the sour threads and sources I've read suggest doing as she did - pitching a known blend and adding dregs from commercial sours throughout the process. It must have been tough drinking those sours to get dregs to pitch.

bellmtbbq said:

I'm a little with Gabe, and I've made it pretty clear to the OP over the past few months through posts. While its possible she made a great lambic with extract, I wonder how good it could be with the Wyeast Lambic blend. Honestly... The stuff is pretty piss poor. Dregs had to have a big impact. Hell, some awesome brewers with all grain set ups and super bugs can't make a great traditional lambic.

I know lots of top sour brewers who don't enter their beers because they know the judges judging sour beer are full of crap and that they'd rather enjoy those bottles then give them away.

I'm not debating that the OPs lambic wasn't great, I'm just thinking she had great luck with her setup and a bunch people are going to make this and be very disappointed and/or dishwater.

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Which is why I've always used bottle dregs.

I gotta say, this is probably the first thread I've seen in a long time where a recipe (AND high ranking judges) gets completely bashed. Geez.

AmandaK said:

Thanks Gabe.

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Darwin18 said:

Thanks for contributing TNGabe.

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Wow. Internet sarcasm that's clear. Don't see that much. Probably didn't even need the eye-roll.

I'm not insulting the OP, her beer, or her skills as a brewer. The competition record speaks for itself. It also raises a few questions that that I always wonder about when this thread pops up.

Lambic is one of, if the not the most complicated styles of beer to make. Turbid mash, coolship, barrels, aging, blending.... So I don't think it's unreasonable to ask how a DME beer made in a bucket would do so wel in the lambic category when other homebrewers trying to reproduce this style have found the turbid mash so important and the few american commercial lambics are from breweries with coolships and barrel programs.

I'd be just as curious if someone was making award winning 'Stilton' from powdered milk as I am about award winning 'Lambic' from DME.

TNGabe said:

Lambic is one of, if the not the most complicated styles of beer to make. Turbid mash, coolship, barrels, aging, blending.... So I don't think it's unreasonable to ask how a DME beer made in a bucket would do so wel in the lambic category when other homebrewers trying to reproduce this style have found the turbid mash so important and the few american commercial lambics are from breweries with coolships and barrel programs.

I'd be just as curious if someone was making award winning 'Stilton' from powdered milk as I am about award winning 'Lambic' from DME.

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Which is why I use bottle dregs from those breweries. (Cantillon dregs being my favorite, but who cares.) The way I look at it, I want to produce great beers with a reasonable amount of effort. That being said, I reasoned that the fermentation and types of critters in a lambic would be more important than wort production.

The reason I posted this recipe was in the hopes that I could inspire more people to brew sour beers and experiment on their own. Will everyone's turn out just like mine? No. Does everyone have my same process/bottle dreg selection/basement temps? No. Is it "cheating"? Probably. But I'm fine with it for now.

Hope that clears up my intentions.

Cheers guys.

I transferred the lambic from the bucket to my carboy. I then brewed 5 more gallons and added to the existing yeast cake along with some extra safale s-04 as per the suggestion of others on the forum.

I tried a taste of the lambic at 1.5 months and it seems to be turning out well. It's currently mildly sour but has such an amazing aroma. Many citrus and fruit notes.

I did have to move my bucket a couple times during initial fermentation. there was no pellicle so either there never was any or it dropped when I moved the bucket.

I'll post back when I have something interesting to add!

I've been reading and drinking lambics (wild beers) for 10 plus years and just never get around to brewing them. Thanks to this recipe I will be brewing this on Friday. I have never used wheat DME and it looks like all the wheat DME is a blend of wheat and barley. So that is what I will use in your recipe.

I have had luck collecting local wild critters with the pineapple juice whole wheat sourdough starter and I think the next years batch might use some local critters. Also it is very hard to find lambics with grapes (druif) so I hope to age some on muscat grapes, as well as the stock pile of chokeberries I have from the backyard.

I love drinking lambics but even the "big guys" have produced some clunkers now and then, which is the nature of the beasts. I think the reason this recipe will work well is that, in lambics, the critters are the stars of the show and malt sugar are just food for them.

Thanks for the recipe.

This stuff foams up so much during the hot break.

bellmtbbq said:

deleted post.

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I find this a rather odd attempt at a"wrap up", given that the OP has asserted none of those things. What she HAS done is provide detailed information on her own process which created award winning beers. EDIT: Brewitt is right. My bad for getting negative.

To the OP, thanks for posting this. My wife & I have gotten interested in sours in the last few months, and I appreciate the information on a reasonably simple entry into this highly complex world of beers.

This thread is looking like it should be moved to the debate forum.

Play nice folks.

Yeah, geez guys. Drunk Monk is a HUGE competition, I scored a 40 on an American Wheat this year and didn't even place! Over 850 entries in the competiton. I'd say the OP's beer is probably pretty darn tasty based on the consistency of her awards (even if she is a cards fan; go cubs!).

On a side note, I brewed up something inspired by the OP's recipe yesterday. Did all-grain, 30% Wheat, 70% 2-Row (would have used pilsner but won a sack of 2-row at a competition 2 weeks ago and it was pre-milled so want to use it up quick). Put 2lbs of maltodextrin in the boil for the bugs to chew on. I pitched ECY01 Bug Farm. I made 15 gallons. I also did a mini-mash on the side with flaked maize, munich, special b, aromatic, flaked wheat, and a little acidulated and blended with 5 gallons of the lambic base to get a Flanders Red. Pitched ECY02 Flemish Ale in that one. Flanders is on the left, lambics are on the right. These were my gravity samples I pulled before I closed up my buckets.

I haven't checked on this thread in a while, but perhaps you saw my earlier post about taking 2nd BOS to Amanda's lambic at the Drunk Monk last year.

I can assure you that the judges, particularly on the Best of Show panel, know plenty about lambics. Yes, it won what is a lightly entered category, but then it went on to win BOS over some phenomenal beers - including my Scottish 70 (which also went to the mini-BOS in the Final Round of NHC), and she also beat an Eisbock which also cleaned up everywhere last year, including 2nd Place in the Final Round of Nationals.

Also, having taken 2nd BOS to the lambic, I inquired about it to the BOS judges afterwards (who happen to be friends of mine) and they all said it was a great beer (obviously!). the only thing that *may* detract (which is a silly thing anyway), is that when you're in the BOS like that and they are trying to figure out the order of the top remaining few which are all going to be excellent beers, often times they might consider "difficulty of brewing". Which could give the edge to a Lambic over my Scottish 70 in this case. But again, I'm not taking away anything from her Lambic. And the comment below is a bit foolish and certainly unnecessary.

TNGabe said:

Not really a nice way to say this, but the OP'd beer's comp success may be indicative of the reluctance of people to enter excellent beers they have months or years invested in and that/or that most judges know nothing about Lambic. Not saying the OP didnt make a great extract Lambic, but it does make me wonder.

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That's it! Strip her of all her awards and send the remaining carboys to me for proper disposal. ��

Used this for my most recent lambic and pitched Bug Farm as well. Tastes great at 9 months and there's not even oak in it yet. I couldn't agree more that it's really a showcase for the bugs. Turbid mash may help but I'm very happy with how this turned out.

Yeah, I think I think Amanda is on to something...KISS. Keep it simple Stupid! Basic grain bill, with lots of dregs will make a great and easy lambic.

Also, I plan on leaving my beer in the primary for 4 months to let the Brett develop, and then rack off to secondary for an additional year, or until the proper sour character develops

I ended up brewing the base beer today. I mashed 9# pils & 9# wheat at 154F. My intention was to KISS with extract, but at last minute LHBS prices that woulda cost me $65 for 12# of DME so instead I bought 2x50# sacks of grain for $95 and did a mash.

Used my march pump for the first time, and in the excitement forgot the 8oz of Malto-dextrine powder. Should I boil it in water, cool & add it to the ferment? Or does it not matter?

Doing initial ferment with US-05, then pitching WLP Sour Belgian I plus the dregs of DFM, Tilquin, and De Proef sours (can't get Cantillon, RR, or JP here). Any suggestions?

Amanda, congratulations on your award winning beer and thanks for posting this in the recipe database. Sharing top, proven recipes that have won awards is exactly what this database is for.

Everyone, please note that I deleted an overly sarcastic post - if you find yourself resorting to sarcasm, rethink whether you want to post or not.

bellmtbbq said:

they know the judges judging sour beer are full of crap

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I judged sours at this year's Drunk Monk

Seriously, if you really think that, get in the game instead of kvetching on the sidelines. If you're not credentialed, do the work to get credentialed and start judging.

Thanks for all the recent feedback guys! Yes, I do love to keep it simple. I had some club members over for a brew day two months ago and the general remark about my practices/brewery was "Why am I not doing it like this? This is so simple." I'm not saying that I'm perfect or that I'm better. I'm just saying I like to arrive at the same place by going the shorter distance.

All that being said, this simple little recipe has been blessed with a few more awards.

In chronological order:
KC Bier Meisters Comp:
2nd Sours with the Gueuze
3rd Sours with the remaining carboy of the first batch

IBU Open:
2nd Sours with the Gueuze

A comp that shall not be named because the results haven't been posted:
3rd Sours with the first bottling of this recipe

Overall, I'm surprised how well the gueuze is doing given that it's barely carbonated (I tried the traditional method of using a young lambic to carbonate the blend - fail). I will probably try to dose it with champagne yeast and see what happens to a few bottles. If I do, I'll post back with the results.

Cheers guys!

I've mentioned before that I made two 5 gallon batches 1.5 months apart. When I fermented the first batch in the primary, it had bubbles coming out of the airlock every 12 seconds after a month and a half. I found that pretty crazy. So when I made my second batch I was even more surprised to see that it had airlock activity for one day and haven't seen it do it since. Probably has to do with overpitching but I'm curious to see what the taste difference is in the end.

Piratwolf said:

I ended up brewing the base beer today. I mashed 9# pils & 9# wheat at 154F. My intention was to KISS with extract, but at last minute LHBS prices that woulda cost me $65 for 12# of DME so instead I bought 2x50# sacks of grain for $95 and did a mash.

Used my march pump for the first time, and in the excitement forgot the 8oz of Malto-dextrine powder. Should I boil it in water, cool & add it to the ferment? Or does it not matter?

Doing initial ferment with US-05, then pitching WLP Sour Belgian I plus the dregs of DFM, Tilquin, and De Proef sours (can't get Cantillon, RR, or JP here). Any suggestions?

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Yes you could just boil, cool and add to the primary. That will work out and you could even rack onto it in the secondary. It's there to provide more for the bugs to chew on after the sacc in the blend (or initial ferment in your case) eats up the easier to access fermentables. The bugs can eat what the sacc yeast cannot.

Personally, I'd just wait until racking but I think either would work just fine.

redgum said:

Yes you could just boil, cool and add to the primary. That will work out and you could even rack onto it in the secondary. It's there to provide more for the bugs to chew on after the sacc in the blend (or initial ferment in your case) eats up the easier to access fermentables. The bugs can eat what the sacc yeast cannot.

Personally, I'd just wait until racking but I think either would work just fine.

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Additional data point: I've done both with good results.

Another winner.

The first bottling of this recipe received 2nd in Sours at the Garage Brewer's Champion of the Pint. Interestingly, the judges both commented that it seemed young and to enter it next year. That was the 'reason' that it only got 3rd BOS and 1st in Sours at the same comp last year.

I wonder what makes a lambic "older"? Besides time, obviously.

AmandaK said:

Another winner.

The first bottling of this recipe received 2nd in Sours at the Garage Brewer's Champion of the Pint. Interestingly, the judges both commented that it seemed young and to enter it next year. That was the 'reason' that it only got 3rd BOS and 1st in Sours at the same comp last year.

I wonder what makes a lambic "older"? Besides time, obviously.

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Probably because judges themselves don't know what old vs young tastes like, and they are just looking for something to say. Chances are good that entries in this category are too young, so it's probably a common comment. I have no idea myself how to compare age.

AmandaK said:

I wonder what makes a lambic "older"? Besides time, obviously.

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It's be great to see if the next time your receive a comment like that for them to try and put a finger on what aspect they think makes it seem young. Perhaps is just one ingredient that is common in other lambics that isn't included in this one that would give it that last leg up. I'd be very interested in what you can find out!

I can't wait for this to be in bottles.

Interesting, I would say at 2.5 years old that it would be fairly "old" tasting at this point. Although, I know some people age lambics 3-5 years. Although, like the other poster said, I think entering young beers in this category is common, so it may just be them not really knowing the difference between a young and old entry. Another factor could be where you were in the flight. This category can get hard to judge after a few because the sourness starts to fatigue the palette. It should say what position you were in the flight on your feedback somewhere (well, hopefully they did).

I haven't tasted your beer (unfortunately) and I haven't seen the judges comments but typically "old" and "young" refer to unblended lambics, or perhaps your gueuze has a little more of the younger beer added that then judges thing it needs (very subjective). But that is the blender's prerogative.
Young lambics have more enteric bacteria flavor (those are the oxygen using bacteria so they dye off pretty quick) but it gives a slight damp kitchen sponge aroma. Also younger straight lambics tend to be a bit sharper in tartness without much more depth. Bright and tasty but they don't have the depth you start to see as the Brett. characters (and other beasties) start to grow. Anything from white cheese rind to grapefruit pith to horsey can all be delicious characteristics of more age. It is possible that carbonation (if you had any?) can enhance that tartness and mask some of the more subtle flavors that are in there, as well as if they are served too cold (which is common and beer judging as all beers from light lagers to lambics go in the same cooler), and when a beer is opened it often takes about 10 min. or more to open up and really expose those flavors and that is time a beer judge just doesn't have.

All that being said I wouldn't be surprised if "too young" just means I don't get much depth of character, or my tongue is numb from drinking sour beers for 4 hours straight.