Therminator money pit

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dipole

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I have a therminator and it worked well until it got clogged once during a transfer. That sucked. I then bought a trub strainer to keep gunk out of the chiller.
(This is the one I bought. http://www.brewershardware.com/FILTER1.html.)

I was brewing an IPA with pellet hops last weekend and well, that somehow clogged the trub filter and it was hell finishing the transfer. I typically whirlpool but sometimes there is just a lot of junk at the bottom of the kettle that seems to make it's way through. I realize that this was probably a one off occurrence but now I have this worry/anxiety of having a stuck transfer and scrambling to save my batch.

So now I am considering adding on a hop spider and the thought occurred to me, when is enough enough? Just to use a plate chiller that is a bear to clean I will probably spend another $200 just to be able to use it.

I am thinking about just getting a nice whirlpool immersion chiller and being done with it.

Just wondering if anyone else traveled this road before and what you did.
 
i built a hop spider for maybe 10 bucks worth of parts. Knock on wood, I've never plugged this thing in 2 years time and well over 400 gal worth of beer pushed through it. I have never just thrown pellets in the boil though, always used the hop spider.
 
I don't have a plate chiller as I have a CFC. But leaf (whole) hops will clog up my diptube, my pump, and my CFC, so I either need to use a bazooka tube (probably like your strainer but even more easily clogged by pellets) to keep leaf hops out of the CFC. However, pellet hops clog that bazooka tube!

The answer for me is to either bag the leaf hops, as pellets don't clog up the works, OR use the bazooka tube and bag the pellets. If I'm using a ton of leaf hops, I use the bazooka tube. If I"m using mostly pellets, I use the bags/spider for the leaf hops and use the regular diptube. There doesn't seem to be a way to simply strain both through the works!
 
How about you drain your wort through a paint strainer into another vessel,then simply lift the strainer out then run through the plate chiller.
 
I've tried most of the chilling methods (Plate, CFC, immersion, bucket o' ice, etc.) and I settled on immersion as my favorite.

I have a home made 50' 3/8" (OD) immersion chiller with a whirlpool pipe added to it. I chill the boil from 212 to 100 with tap water and then switch to a sump pump in a bucket with ice water to get it down the rest of the way.

Yesterday with 70 degree tap water and 20 lbs of ice I got a Kolsch from 212F to 60F in 12 minutes. The key to this is the whirlpool and pumping ice water through the IC. In the past I used a second IC (pre-chiller) in a bucket of ice/water, but the sump pump method is much faster and uses less water.

The IC cleans up easily. Pellet hops don't bother the pump (I've never tried whole leaf hops). I get the added benefit of having the whirlpool drop all the hops and break material in the middle of the pot, so the wort going into the fermenter is pretty clear.

I can also do whirlpool hop additions, which I've found I really like for preserving hop aroma.

Also, I don't have to wonder about what I might not have gotten cleaned out of a plate or CFC chiller (It would drive me crazy that I can't see in there).

I think going to a robust IC solution would solve most of your issues. If you like whole hops you'd probably still need to bag/spider them or something similar. That's my .02 anyway.
 
... immersion chiller with a whirlpool pipe added to it.

... The key to this is the whirlpool

Would you expand on the whirlpool pipe? Maybe add some pictures? I've always wondered how to whirlpool with an immersion chiller in the brew kettle.

Thanks
 
I've tried most of the chilling methods (Plate, CFC, immersion, bucket o' ice, etc.) and I settled on immersion as my favorite.

I have a home made 50' 3/8" (OD) immersion chiller with a whirlpool pipe added to it. I chill the boil from 212 to 100 with tap water and then switch to a sump pump in a bucket with ice water to get it down the rest of the way.

Yesterday with 70 degree tap water and 20 lbs of ice I got a Kolsch from 212F to 60F in 12 minutes. The key to this is the whirlpool and pumping ice water through the IC. In the past I used a second IC (pre-chiller) in a bucket of ice/water, but the sump pump method is much faster and uses less water.

The IC cleans up easily. Pellet hops don't bother the pump (I've never tried whole leaf hops). I get the added benefit of having the whirlpool drop all the hops and break material in the middle of the pot, so the wort going into the fermenter is pretty clear.

I can also do whirlpool hop additions, which I've found I really like for preserving hop aroma.

Also, I don't have to wonder about what I might not have gotten cleaned out of a plate or CFC chiller (It would drive me crazy that I can't see in there).

I think going to a robust IC solution would solve most of your issues. If you like whole hops you'd probably still need to bag/spider them or something similar. That's my .02 anyway.

I am leaning toward doing just that, like I said, I can keep throwing money at a solution that may or may not prevent clogging in my plate and adding another 20 min to post brew cleaning, or go back to basics and throw the IC in the boil.

I thought the trub filter would work and it does to a degree but you can't push too much through it without clogging it! It's like you need a filter to filter your filter.
 
After much consideration on the topic the issues brought up in this thread is EXACTLY why I have avoided plate chillers and to a lesser degree CFC's.


I just have a beefy whirlpool chiller which a recirculation arm, like this one. http://morebeer.com/products/wort-chiller-superchiller-recirculation.html

Preface: I'm not trying to talk you into a plate chiller, and everyone's opinion varies. That said, I have yet to have an issue with mine.

To the OP, all you need is a 4" PVC coupler, a 4" hose clamp, 5 gal paint strainer, and double hook coat hook. Hang the spider off the side of the pot. Like I said, less than 10 bucks. If you want to get rid of the chiller, that's fine too. But it doesn't take much to make this thing work well. My cleaning regimen pushes PBW through it in both directions, then rinse and cap off the ends with camlock caps. Works every time, and again, knock on wood, no infections in 2+ years of use.
 
I have been successfully using a Therminator for several years, and I have put over a pound of pellet hops in the boil before.

I don't have a filter on the bottom of the pot, and I don't use hose clamps and whatnot. I just put my mash paddle over the kettle, and hang the filter bags from it into the boil.
 
Preface: I'm not trying to talk you into a plate chiller, and everyone's opinion varies. That said, I have yet to have an issue with mine.

To the OP, all you need is a 4" PVC coupler, a 4" hose clamp, 5 gal paint strainer, and double hook coat hook. Hang the spider off the side of the pot. Like I said, less than 10 bucks. If you want to get rid of the chiller, that's fine too. But it doesn't take much to make this thing work well. My cleaning regimen pushes PBW through it in both directions, then rinse and cap off the ends with camlock caps. Works every time, and again, knock on wood, no infections in 2+ years of use.


I might try this before blowing it all up. I made that contraption about 4 months ago but melted it after I put the lid on the BK. Lesson learned....

You say you put camlocks in place, what about the leftover liquid inside the plate? I can never seem to get mine totally dry and I think that "wetness" is not good to trap inside. I also push PBW (does it need to be hot?) through the chiller for a good 20 min while I clean everything else.

Also, where can I find a couple of camlocks or plugs? I'm pretty sure those were the yellow things I found on the floor in my shed when I cleaned it up last week. The trashman probably saw them and is now using it on his plate chiller.


If this doesn't work, rather than spending more cash on another filter, I really like that IC that Xpertskir mentioned. That thing looks like a beast.
 
Hang on a second. Let me just stop you right there. Why are you putting the lid on the BK?

Agreed, you don't want to do that.

I take my chiller off the front of my rig, and dump it from side to side when it just has the water in it. Get it so it all comes out, then put these on the two camlock male pieces that are screwed on permenantly:

camlockdc-500x500.jpg


Yeah, it's not bone dry, but again, I've had no problems. I have heard some fill it with sanitizer before putting on the caps. I suppose you can do that.

I have a single tier with pumps, and hook this guy up. when I hit 15 min to go in the boil, I open everything up and start pushing wort through this. Once my boil comes back up (because it will drop while this absorbs heat from the boil), I then set my timer again at 15 min and finish up the brew. The chiller is sterilized and ready to cool everything down.

I put on quick disconnects for the water, one from the hose in, and then bought a cheapo hose for the water out. Run that into my backyard. My chilling takes a little longer, as lately I've been chilling down inside the brew kettle and getting a whirlpool going. Then, once the kettle is down to temp, I hook up a hose off the ball valve and directly into my fermenter.

My cleaning procedure goes like this:

Once I'm done with the last beer of the day (I try to double/tripple up brew day), I take my leftover sparge water and transfer it to my MLT. I always go with 13 gal of sparge water, regardless of how much I actually need to sparge with. I am guaranteed leftover water that is already warm. If brewing another beer, I have a jump start on getting my strike water up to temp, if not I have warm/hot water to add PBW to in my MLT and recirulate on pump 1. I then refill the HLT with about 5 gal of cold hose water.

Once boil is done and BK is emptied, I transfer hot PBW (about 150-160ish degrees) from MLT to BK, and set it up so it recirculates through pump 2 and my plate chiller. Then I transfer cold clean water from HLT into MLT and set that to recirculate in MLT/pump 1. Once BK is clean, drain, then transfer rinse water into BK and set to recirculate through plate chiller and pump 2. Put dust caps on Pump 1. Finish rinse and drain, then dust caps on Plate Chiller and dust caps on Pump 2.

I typically recirculate PBW for about 10-20 min, depending on how soiled the BK is. I have to have the dust caps because my one car garage is not only a brewery, but a woodshop as well.
 
A hop spider seems to be the default solution to clogging issues of a plate chiller. Ive thought about using one, but I just can't believe there isn't a drop off in oil/acid extraction when using a hop spider, either for bittering or flavor.
 
Hang on a second. Let me just stop you right there. Why are you putting the lid on the BK?

Honestly, I didn't have room to put it anywhere else, so I put it on there for maybe 5 minutes tops while I cleaned up my bench a bit. I didn't even fully put it on, just about 3/4 and the stupid thing still melted.

A hop spider seems to be the default solution to clogging issues of a plate chiller. Ive thought about using one, but I just can't believe there isn't a drop off in oil/acid extraction when using a hop spider, either for bittering or flavor.

Yeah, I'm concerned about that as well, especially with the mesh screen size necessary to prevent pellets gunk from escaping the filter.
 
How about you drain your wort through a paint strainer into another vessel,then simply lift the strainer out then run through the plate chiller.

This. People don't talk about this one enough, and I think it's fertile ground. It would essentially be a grant with filtration capabilities. You could use it as a hopback, too. But, you then have 2 other issues to deal with:

1. You potentially expose the wort to HSA, if that sort of thing holds merit with you.

2. You go back to using gravity, since the pump no longer forces wort through the chiller. You could use a sealed vessel, but then you'd be chasing leaks and it might just clog anyway...leaving you to handle a hot filtration chamber spilling wort everywhere....ask me how I know....;)
 
I've been using a Therminator for a few years now and love it now that I have all the bugs worked out of my system. I had the same problems with it getting clogged until I got a hop spider. I bought a stainless one from www.arborfab.com and love it. I didn't really care for the hop bag. Hop utilization doesn't seem to be an issue. If the hop spider is very full, I'll recirculate the wort through the spider for a while. No need to whirlpool. Just connect hoses and pump.

I also use camlocks for all my connections, including the water in/out. Having one type of connector simplifies things.

I save the cooling water and immediately start to heat it while cooling the wort. This dramatically cut down on my cleanup time. No time wasted waiting for cleaning water to heat. Once my kettle is empty, I change my connections and back flush the Therminator with hot water until the output is clear. Then I circulate 155 degree oxy clean/TSP90 solution through the Therminator and BK for 15 min or so. I dump the cleaner and repeat the flush with hot water for 10-15 min. Then I soak the Therminator in Starsan for a little while and drain. I always store the Therminator full of distilled water. If anything is left, it won't dry out and clog (a trick I learned from a local brewery). Store with camlock dust caps on.

It was a pain at first and I lost a few brews along the way but now I can cool and cleanup in less than 45 min from flameout. Hope this helps!
 
A hop spider seems to be the default solution to clogging issues of a plate chiller. Ive thought about using one, but I just can't believe there isn't a drop off in oil/acid extraction when using a hop spider, either for bittering or flavor.

There most certainly IS a drop off in Alpha Acid conversion / "utilization"; probably not so much extraction of non-isomerized alpha acids or oils.

-You can measure the temp both inside of and outside of a hop spider (plastic or stainless) in the boil and you will see that the temp inside is several degrees below boiling.

At home brew scales does this really matter that much?? Probably not. Could increased utilization from FWH your bittering additions offset this? Probably.

Note: I'm not defending plate chillers; I think they're a giant money pit and a PITA, too. I have both an immersion chiller and a plate chiller currently but I'm either going with a Jaded Brewing double pipe CFC or a convoluted stainless CFC for the long-term.

I really like hoppy beers and lagers so recirculated cooling is quite important to me; the combination of hops and cold break make a plate chiller almost a non-starter if you want to recirculate back to the kettle to cool the entire volume of wort quickly. Hops in either format post SOME challenges when recirculating in the kettle but when they combine with cold break they form hop CONCRETE that clogs almost anything. -There are brewers on these forums using Stainless hop spiders AND the brewhardware trub filter and they end up clogging both when recirculating; it's a real challenge.

Immersion Chillers and CFCs (non-plate CFCs) ARE the lower hassle way to recirc while chilling. I want to clean-in-place so CFC for me all the way! (I also REALLY like the perf of a CFC used for HERMS mashing so the added cost of a CFC is worth it as it can be used both for HERMS and for chilling.

-I DO REALLY wish that someone made a convoluted CFC with more than 12' of tubing, though... An 18ft - 24ft convoluted CFC would be great and future-proof as it could support scaling up to 30 gallon batch sizes.



Adam
 
A hop spider seems to be the default solution to clogging issues of a plate chiller. Ive thought about using one, but I just can't believe there isn't a drop off in oil/acid extraction when using a hop spider, either for bittering or flavor.
The hops go in the basket, there you can stir them as much as you want, or lift the basket, or pump wart on top of them, brewers choice.
 
I think we all struggle with this issue.

I have a home fashioned hop spider, though have never used. It seems the small hop bags are also problematic if you try to use more than 2-3 oz hops, it seems that there is probably poor contact with the hops.

I'd really like to "free hop" and just dump them in, however, when doing really high hop rates with hopbursting, and lots of hops in an IPA, its a real problem. I tried installing a whirlpool arm in my lid, but in order to use it, I need to put the lid on the boil kettle. Since this would only be used for "whirlpool" or flamout hops, is that going to cause DMS problems? What if I left lid partially askew so steam could escape during the 20 minute whirlpool rest?

When using a whirlpool with immersion chiller, all the hops, hot break and cold break is really considerable. I couldn't get a good cone.

I think a large hop spider would accentuate boil-overs. Is this a concern? I like the look of the stainless spiders from stainless brewing. Anybody care to comment on those?

I have plugged by therminator, but I now use it to prechill water for my immersion chiller. crazy. I may try to unplug it, but I think its hopeless.

TD
 
i put a jaybird false bottom in my brew kettle and use pellet hops, all at flameout. the hops settle on the screen and form a filter so very little hop material makes it into my plate chiller, you can't see any in the yeast cake at all. i do have a hop spider from stainless brewing and it works well but since i don't boil hops anymore i don't use it.
 
i put a jaybird false bottom in my brew kettle and use pellet hops, all at flameout. the hops settle on the screen and form a filter so very little hop material makes it into my plate chiller, you can't see any in the yeast cake at all. i do have a hop spider from stainless brewing and it works well but since i don't boil hops anymore i don't use it.

Explain how you don't boil hops anymore please.
 
Explain how you don't boil hops anymore please.

i've recently started experimenting with all flameout hop additions, about 10 batches now with very consistent results. one of the reasons was the hops getting into the plate chiller. the chiller never clogged on me but whenever i would run boiling PBW water through it i would get gunk coming out for a good 30 minutes or more. another reason was to see how much bitterness i would get without boiling the hops for 60 min. beersmith said zero and some people claimed that it was little more than zero, i figured i would get a beer just as bitter with a 20-30 min hopstand; X amount at flameout, X amount at 10-15 minutes and X amount at 25-30 min depending on the alpha acid of a given hop but it's usually 3-5 oz in the kettle. what i don't know is if i'm missing something by not boiling the hops, some other element in the hops that may need a boil. the resulting beer has been very good, nobody can guess that it did not have a bittering addition. the aroma and flavor is noticeably brighter, more intense and longer lasting in the keg.
 
Yes, I was looking into your recent postings on the subject. I've been doing later and later additions. I'm very interested in what you're up to.

i've recently started experimenting with all flameout hop additions, about 10 batches now with very consistent results. one of the reasons was the hops getting into the plate chiller. the chiller never clogged on me but whenever i would run boiling PBW water through it i would get gunk coming out for a good 30 minutes or more. another reason was to see how much bitterness i would get without boiling the hops for 60 min. beersmith said zero and some people claimed that it was little more than zero, i figured i would get a beer just as bitter with a 20-30 min hopstand; X amount at flameout, X amount at 10-15 minutes and X amount at 25-30 min depending on the alpha acid of a given hop but it's usually 3-5 oz in the kettle. what i don't know is if i'm missing something by not boiling the hops, some other element in the hops that may need a boil. the resulting beer has been very good, nobody can guess that it did not have a bittering addition. the aroma and flavor is noticeably brighter, more intense and longer lasting in the keg.
 
eastoak said:
i've recently started experimenting with all flameout hop additions, about 10 batches now with very consistent results. one of the reasons was the hops getting into the plate chiller. the chiller never clogged on me but whenever i would run boiling PBW water through it i would get gunk coming out for a good 30 minutes or more. another reason was to see how much bitterness i would get without boiling the hops for 60 min. beersmith said zero and some people claimed that it was little more than zero, i figured i would get a beer just as bitter with a 20-30 min hopstand; X amount at flameout, X amount at 10-15 minutes and X amount at 25-30 min depending on the alpha acid of a given hop but it's usually 3-5 oz in the kettle. what i don't know is if i'm missing something by not boiling the hops, some other element in the hops that may need a boil. the resulting beer has been very good, nobody can guess that it did not have a bittering addition. the aroma and flavor is noticeably brighter, more intense and longer lasting in the keg.

So what was you method for cleaning the plate chiller if you could please elaborate.

TD
 
So what was you method for cleaning the plate chiller if you could please elaborate.

TD

i put 2-3 gallons of water to boil in the kettle and start recirculating backwards through the plate chiller. i have a big sieve that i run the water through and it catches lots of the stuff that comes out. once it starts boiling i put some PBW in the water which triggers a whole lot of stuff to come out of the plate chiller, black/brown gooey hop debris. at some point i stop the pump and reverse the hoses and get a bunch more stuff out. i find that stopping the pump for 10-15 seconds then starting it up pushes out a lot of the stuff. if i just run the pump continuously for 3-20-30 min the water eventually runs clean but there is still stuff hanging on in the chiller, the stopping and starting gets it out. this usually takes me 30-40 min and i do it while i'm cleaning up the garage of milling grain for the next brew day. the way my chiller is mounted to my top tier it would be a hassle to take it off and bake it in the oven like i used to do before so i rely on this long boil cleaning to clean out the chiller. in the year or so that i've been doing this i have not had any clogs during chilling. on a brew day i do not use the pump for anything more than starting a siphon out of the kettle through the chiller i think this helps to keep hops out of the chiller.
 
I brewed up the 115th Dream Hopbursted IPA from NB a few weeks ago. I also have the therminator and it still worked like a dream. I use a 15gal megapot along with the hopstopper (http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/hop-stopper). I had absolutely no issues whatsoever, even after using a pound of pellet hops. Once done with the therminator, I cycle PBW through it using my steelhead pump, it works perfectly.
 
After a brewday, I fill my e-keggle with water, heat to 150F, and pump through my therminator for a couple of hours.

I cap the wort in/out ports of my therminator between brews to keep the f^@&%ing flys from laying maggoty f^@&%ing eggs in there between brews, don't ask me how I know about this.
 
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