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gtlaw10

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Evening folks! I figured I could use some advice from people with experience in writing to a brewery as a homebrewer and requesting info about a favorite beers recipe so they can clone it. You see - I love a certain brew that has been discontinued, I love it so much I want to be able to make it whenever I get all whimsical and want some - we've all been in this position at some point I'm sure.
I've seen threads and replies on the forum referencing the author's effort, and at times fruits, in contacting a brewery for a recipe or some insight. I'm wondering if anyone out there could help me get started - I don't want to sound like a sycophantic lunatic, nor do I want to sound like I am trying to steal the recipe.
Also, it's a bonus in my favor that this brewery is a microbrewery right?
Thanks :rockin:
 
I go home to Wyoming every year for vacation and throughout the drive (1600 miles one way) I like to stop at microbrews to stretch my legs. Well my journeys had me passing through Laramie, Wyoming so I hit up Altitude Brewery and Chophouse.

They had a great number of excellent beers, one of which I loved more than any micro I have had to date. I purchased a growler to take back to Ohio to have my brewing friends taste.
I finally decided that I would take a shot and contact Altitude for a recipe.

I simply used their “contact us” link on their website and explained that I loved the beer and purchased 3 growlers to take back to Ohio to share with others and spread the word about their brewery.
I then told them I was a home brewer and would love some insight on the recipe so I could enjoy it at home. Threw in that I would gladly buy it from them but I live 24 hour drive away.

Here is the reply I got, which was good enough for me to make a dang good clone.

“Tom, I am glad you enjoyed the Old Venerable. This is a recipe I make each summer and each year I tweak it based on what I did or did not like about batches in years past. I thought this year's batch was the best I ever made. Here is a rundown of the beer:

I start with a very straight forward base of about 50% wheat and 50% barley, with the barley consisting of German Munich Helles and a little crystal 15. I aim for an OG of about 21 Plato, then throw in about 90lbs of honey (250 gallon batch). This is all fermented with the California ale yeast at a high temp (about 72-74) to increase ester formation. I hop it like a west coast IPA. 80 IBU should be enough to balance the malt, but be sure to calculate by hand because most programs get the IBUs to low on high gravity wort. Then I dump in lots of late addition hops and dry hops much like a west coast IPA. Chinook, Cascade, Columbus, Summit, etc. I also like to drink this beer young, because I like it before all the aroma hops mellow out.

Nathan Venner”
 
I've only sent one, to a very small brewery who shall remain nameless, in upstate NY. They've got an amazing scotch ale that cant be found outside of the area. I sent them a nicely worded email, couple of paragraphs, explaining who I was, etc etc etc...

Got a reply back about a week later with:
"We dont share our recipes."

Seriously, thats the entire text of the email. I'm all for keeping your info close if you so chose, but there's a fine line between blunt and rude. Not sure how I feel about it.
 
awesome - thanks for the encouragement. glad it went well for you!! I can only hope the same goes for me, I sent an email via the contact us links et al. fingers crossed
 
I've only sent one, to a very small brewery who shall remain nameless, in upstate NY. They've got an amazing scotch ale that cant be found outside of the area. I sent them a nicely worded email, couple of paragraphs, explaining who I was, etc etc etc...

Got a reply back about a week later with:
"We dont share our recipes."

Seriously, thats the entire text of the email. I'm all for keeping your info close if you so chose, but there's a fine line between blunt and rude. Not sure how I feel about it.

i'm sorry to hear that sir - that is a fine line i agree and it would appear they simply shrugged you off. brutal. it wouldn't happen to lake placid and the ubu ale you're referring to would it? i ask because i was taking photos of TAPNY booths and breweries etc this past year and when I got a picture of Lake Placid's table and offerings i was deflecting nasty glances from behind tap handles and ubu is delicious.
 
I've only sent one, to a very small brewery who shall remain nameless, in upstate NY. They've got an amazing scotch ale that cant be found outside of the area. I sent them a nicely worded email, couple of paragraphs, explaining who I was, etc etc etc...

Got a reply back about a week later with:
"We dont share our recipes."

Seriously, thats the entire text of the email. I'm all for keeping your info close if you so chose, but there's a fine line between blunt and rude. Not sure how I feel about it.

You should feel respected enough that they even responded at all.
 
All I am saying is that it would have been "easier" for the responder to just delete the email as spam or junk. Despite the brevity of the response, at least there was a response.

true - i'm definitely guilty of the sin of judging mail as SPAM before I even consider what it could actually be.

i guess i would just like to think that this whole brewing thing is a bit of an ancient club and everyone is more or less friendly to everyone else who heeds the call of the yeasties...

but all in all a response, albeit dismissive, isn't something to shake a stick at afterall.
 
true - i'm definitely guilty of the sin of judging mail as SPAM before I even consider what it could actually be.

i guess i would just like to think that this whole brewing thing is a bit of an ancient club and everyone is more or less friendly to everyone else who heeds the call of the yeasties...

but all in all a response, albeit dismissive, isn't something to shake a stick at afterall.

Meh.

There are some who recognize that a recipe alone does not produce a signature beer. That water, brewery, technique, and the recipe must all culminate to make a successful product.

And then there are some that take the position that a recipe is the basis to their success, or failure, and a sucessful recipe should be guarded to ensure a continued niche in a competitive field.

We all know what trials we face to "perfect" our product. many of us are lucky to be in a situation where that product can generate an income. And we all know what difficulties we face to reproduce a product when we are limited by the ingredients we can obtain.

As a brewer, I respect both approaches equally. And, a simple response is more respectable than no response.
 
I've gotten a ton of help from brewers. I always try to make a batch or two of what I am trying to clone BEFORE I drop in at the brewery and start asking questions. I take my time, have a beer or two, start up a conversation based on the particular beer I have been working on, not only showing interest but also demonstrating some respect for their art and a willingness to work for the end product, not just get an easy answer. I have always walked away knowing a lot more about the beer in question, sometimes with the ingredient list, a sample of some of the yeast, the mash schedule whatever. I have never gotten the recipe and instructions blow by blow. I have made a number of those beers or at least my best effort at those beers but I also have made 5 or 6 more batches trying to get it right.....but for me that is part of the fun of it. I always try and go back with a bottle of my best effort for a critque when I get that far. It all ends up being a lot of fun and a great way to learn a lot quickly.
I have also spent some time with Nate at Altitude Brewery in Laramie Wyoming. He is a great guy and a skilled and creative brewer who makes fine beer. I learned a lot about a particular hop and malt from him that I may have never known otherwise. If you ever get by that part of the world, you need to stop in, his seasonals are always great. If he is ther he is very nice guy and more than willing to share with others.
 
OP,
Yes, you will get some really *****y responses from some. I emailed a certain brewer and was told, "we don't share our recipes, try starting with a basic cream ale and experiment from there"
Really? How does that help me at all? I knew it was a cream ale from the frickin name and obviously that is where to start lol. That guy got put on my S list. If they choose to respond then I'd prefer a much nicer tone or not treating me like an idiot.

However, for ever *****y response, you get some really cool and friendly ones. I've had brewers tell me exact grain percentages, exact yeast, and hops. Can't get any clearer than that.

I even helped out a brewer at a brewpub after he told me he recently became the head brewmaster after the previous guy (who brewed the beer in question) left. I gave my best try, which came close so I wrote to him and gave him my input. He was very gracious.

I usually just ask for a VERY basic breakdown of the recipe. Like which grains are in it and a hint toward yeast. It's up to them how much they want to share from that point.
 
OP,
Yes, you will get some really *****y responses from some. I emailed a certain brewer and was told, "we don't share our recipes, try starting with a basic cream ale and experiment from there"
Really? How does that help me at all? I knew it was a cream ale from the frickin name and obviously that is where to start lol. That guy got put on my S list. If they choose to respond then I'd prefer a much nicer tone or not treating me like an idiot.

Maybe he was just telling you that the recipe isn't that complex. I mean, it's just a cream ale after all. Low IBU, low malt chracter, add some adjuncts, clean ale yeast....

You could take a combine what is common over a few internet recipes and be 90% there.
 
Brewing is a business.
...for those who have chosen to make it one of their sources of income yes - to the rest of the world...no...brewing is just like baking bread, making cookies, lasagna, soda, etc. each one of those items is, essentially a basic human skill learned and developed over hundreds to thousands of years.
I'm going to have to agree with Gila and say that the ingredients don't make a great beer - the person performing their art with those ingredients does - but sadly not everyone subscribes to this particular philosophy...and so we have responses such as the above and snotty/arrogant/trite responses to curious homebrewers.
I've gotten a ton of help from brewers. I always try to make a batch or two of what I am trying to clone BEFORE I drop in at the brewery and start asking questions. I take my time, have a beer or two, start up a conversation based on the particular beer I have been working on, not only showing interest but also demonstrating some respect for their art and a willingness to work for the end product, not just get an easy answer. I have always walked away knowing a lot more about the beer in question, sometimes with the ingredient list, a sample of some of the yeast, the mash schedule whatever. I have never gotten the recipe and instructions blow by blow. I have made a number of those beers or at least my best effort at those beers but I also have made 5 or 6 more batches trying to get it right.....but for me that is part of the fun of it. I always try and go back with a bottle of my best effort for a critque when I get that far. It all ends up being a lot of fun and a great way to learn a lot quickly.
I have also spent some time with Nate at Altitude Brewery in Laramie Wyoming. He is a great guy and a skilled and creative brewer who makes fine beer. I learned a lot about a particular hop and malt from him that I may have never known otherwise. If you ever get by that part of the world, you need to stop in, his seasonals are always great. If he is ther he is very nice guy and more than willing to share with others.
This is nice to read - thank you for sharing!! There may exist a camaraderie yet! I like this personable approach where feasible, unfortunately I am many, many, miles away from this particular brewery - but duly noted.
As for blow by blow instructions - that would a holy grail of sorts..heh. i would be pleased as pie if they responded with a hint at the grist and the hop profile, not even the variety - just the profile.


OP,
Yes, you will get some really *****y responses from some. I emailed a certain brewer and was told, "we don't share our recipes, try starting with a basic cream ale and experiment from there"
Really? How does that help me at all? I knew it was a cream ale from the frickin name and obviously that is where to start lol. That guy got put on my S list. If they choose to respond then I'd prefer a much nicer tone or not treating me like an idiot.

However, for ever *****y response, you get some really cool and friendly ones. I've had brewers tell me exact grain percentages, exact yeast, and hops. Can't get any clearer than that.

I even helped out a brewer at a brewpub after he told me he recently became the head brewmaster after the previous guy (who brewed the beer in question) left. I gave my best try, which came close so I wrote to him and gave him my input. He was very gracious.

I usually just ask for a VERY basic breakdown of the recipe. Like which grains are in it and a hint toward yeast. It's up to them how much they want to share from that point.
Exactly, you were treated like you didn't belong, an outsider of sorts who knows nothing. Harsh.
That's more or less how I approached the email, intro, praise of their craft and my history of imbibing it, my attempts at clones, then just sorta asked if they could give me any tips/pointers/clues. I'll have to find another fantastic microbrew I'm motivated enough about to clone and try again...and again...I'll be that guy...brewers muttering at festivals/gatherings of an insanely pestering ******* trying to freeload their recipes...
 
i'm sorry to hear that sir - that is a fine line i agree and it would appear they simply shrugged you off. brutal. it wouldn't happen to lake placid and the ubu ale you're referring to would it? i ask because i was taking photos of TAPNY booths and breweries etc this past year and when I got a picture of Lake Placid's table and offerings i was deflecting nasty glances from behind tap handles and ubu is delicious.

Nah, wasnt them. I'm glad (Insert Brewery Name Here) deigned to respond. Considering they havent updated their website since August, I guess I should consider myself lucky.
 
I took the approach of saying "It seems like there's a little of this malt and some of these hops. Here's a recipe I put together, am I headed in the right direction?". I got lots of help. I didn't flat out ask for the recipe. I did some homework and tried my best and the brewer responded within 12 hours telling me to lower this percentage, add this malt, and adjust your IBUs.
 
Maybe he was just telling you that the recipe isn't that complex. I mean, it's just a cream ale after all. Low IBU, low malt chracter, add some adjuncts, clean ale yeast....

You could take a combine what is common over a few internet recipes and be 90% there.

Yeah, but it didn't seem that simple to me. There is another flavor in the beer that makes me think there is some sort of special adjunct or certain yeast. Then again, I am not very good at cloning recipes. Regardless, I felt a bit slighted by the response. Guess I got used to the nice guy responses...

I agree with GTlaw...the recipe is only half the product. My sister took a chocolatier class, the instructor has his own chocolate shop. He gave the exact recipes to the entire class with these exact words, "Here is the recipe, you'll never make it like I do".
 
Nah, wasnt them. I'm glad (Insert Brewery Name Here) deigned to respond. Considering they havent updated their website since August, I guess I should consider myself lucky.
Heh - yea sounds like you might have actually been 'blessed' with a response if they haven't been able to pay or have time to pay their webmaster to update the site.

I took the approach of saying "It seems like there's a little of this malt and some of these hops. Here's a recipe I put together, am I headed in the right direction?". I got lots of help. I didn't flat out ask for the recipe. I did some homework and tried my best and the brewer responded within 12 hours telling me to lower this percentage, add this malt, and adjust your IBUs.
Nice - next time around I'll include on eof my failed attempts. This seems sound, thanks! It's been around 65 hours ago I sent the request email.

What's been folks response times, if they get one at all???

My sister took a chocolatier class, the instructor has his own chocolate shop. He gave the exact recipes to the entire class with these exact words, "Here is the recipe, you'll never make it like I do".
That essentially describes every time I've asked my Mom for a recipe. She's very forthcoming with the ingredients, even the techniques, but she knows, and I am ruthlessly aware, it'll never be like her version.
 
I asked New Glarus for their Black Wheat recipe and received a very kind, apologetic note explaining that they felt they couldn't share any info with regards to their proprietary recipes even given that this particular beer had been discontinued.

I would expect the bigger the brewery the more likely they are to be willing to help. Sierra Nevada doesn't have to worry about clones because they're so big there's no chance of a clone cutting into market share in any appreciable way. Mom & Pop Brewery and Pub, however, could suffer immensely if one of their recipes was let loose.
 
To the OP, why not name the brewery and brew on here? HBT is a great sounding board for trying to clone a certain brew...
 
I asked New Glarus for their Black Wheat recipe and received a very kind, apologetic note explaining that they felt they couldn't share any info with regards to their proprietary recipes even given that this particular beer had been discontinued.

I would expect the bigger the brewery the more likely they are to be willing to help. Sierra Nevada doesn't have to worry about clones because they're so big there's no chance of a clone cutting into market share in any appreciable way. Mom & Pop Brewery and Pub, however, could suffer immensely if one of their recipes was let loose.

that stands to reason.
i hope that because this particular beer is discontinued they'll be forthcoming, that's interesting to me that despite the fact the brewery isn't producing any thing to meet the demand they created, they still wouldn't share something with you. if they aren't even trying to lockdown that share of the market by producing the beer, they might as well help with the demand and let those who know how recreate their recipe at home. strange.
 
To the OP, why not name the brewery and brew on here? HBT is a great sounding board for trying to clone a certain brew...

The brewery is Long Trail, the beer is Hit the Trail...I didn't want to shuffle through the inevitable slew of criticism about how certain individuals don't 'prefer it,' or it isn't a very 'strong example' of the style, etc etc.
I have also searched this forum to the best of my humble abilities and couldn't find anything, nothing on the web either. There is a request, unanswered I might add, on this forum for a clone that was posted October '11 - I was hoping to eventually be able to answer that poor soul.
 
I remeber liking long trail a few years ago in VT, Double Bag was rather yummy as I recall. Dn't think I had hit the trail though.
 
I suspect most of those "contact us" emails go to the webmaster or sales or some office clerk at a lot of breweries (like many other small businesses). The person responding may just be repeating what they were told without thinking about how it affects the brewery's brand.

I've had luck asking specific questions rather than just asking for the whole recipe, but it probably just comes down to the brewery's policy on helping us out. A specific question to Avery landed the entire recipe scaled for homebrewing. Many specific questions to other breweries have gone unanswered for months and I expect no answer.
 
I think Deschutes strikes a really good balance in this area. They have a homebrew section on their website and list all the ingredients (specific grain, hops and general yeast type) and the SG, FG, IBUs etc...then they say
**Note: Temps, times and weights are the challenge. Happy Brewing!

If you know your ingredients you can clone it pretty good I would imagine by knowing good ratios for the grains, what hops are for bittering vs. aroma/flavor etc.
 
Hit the Trail is currently available in their mixed 12 packs. Just saw them this past Saturday.

WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
why isn't it listed on their website?
i suspect you may have found an ancient 12 pack...but you live in boston...
weird man, it's not listed as part of their year round, seasonal, or limited edition brews.
 
I remeber liking long trail a few years ago in VT, Double Bag was rather yummy as I recall. Dn't think I had hit the trail though.
Double Bag is nice, one of the strongest beers you can buy outside of a liquor store in VT. Hit the Trail is a dreamy creamy english brown, pretty sure southern english brown.

I suspect most of those "contact us" emails go to the webmaster or sales or some office clerk at a lot of breweries (like many other small businesses). The person responding may just be repeating what they were told without thinking about how it affects the brewery's brand.

I've had luck asking specific questions rather than just asking for the whole recipe, but it probably just comes down to the brewery's policy on helping us out. A specific question to Avery landed the entire recipe scaled for homebrewing. Many specific questions to other breweries have gone unanswered for months and I expect no answer.
I was kinda being wishful and wanting the recipient of the email, whatever level drone they may be, to direct it where it needed to go, afterall that is part of their job. but most likely yea, they just have a stock answer in a file somewhere.
Avery's choices make a lot of sense, given that in Extreme Brewing their brewmaster gives out a recipe or two.


I think Deschutes strikes a really good balance in this area. They have a homebrew section on their website and list all the ingredients (specific grain, hops and general yeast type) and the SG, FG, IBUs etc...then they say

If you know your ingredients you can clone it pretty good I would imagine by knowing good ratios for the grains, what hops are for bittering vs. aroma/flavor etc.
Deschutes sounds like a nice place to grab a beer given this info.

I might try and send another email with a couple of my failed attempts...let them know where I am in the process, grains, hops, etc.

Thanks for the info guys - keep it coming!! :rockin:
 

weird - i guess unless you were privy to this press release you just wouldn't ever know. nice of them. it is common and easy to source, but i haven't been looking at them since they discontinued hit the trail years back.
i'll go pick one up eventually, but the markup down here is ridiculous. heh i bet this means they definitely won't be responding.
 
so they definitely aren't getting back to me with that first try.
so i will try and explain my process and break down the failed attempts and ask if they could offer and critiques or criticisms. if that fails...shucks i suppose.
 
I sent a very simple two sentence email to Sierra Nevada about cloning a brew. They (he) sent me the recipe that was only missing the most basic computations - even a caveman could brew it.

Of course they do Beer Camp so they like to share the knowledge.
 
this thread inspired me to email my local brewery about my favorite beer. I didn't out and ask for the recipe, just for some hints and tips. I only did this after extolling my love for their brews and this beer in particular. Let's hope I get somewhere.
 
I've mailed a few breweries for recipe advice and all of them were helpful in someway. But seriously, a brewery that won't even push you in the right direction? Especially with a discontinued brew? I mean come on....
 
yea i'm a little bummed, but still determined. they'll probably have to eventually add my email to their spam filter - heh!
 
About 12 years ago I wrote to Sam Adams to get some hints on cloning there winter fest. They were extremely helpful and guiding me. Still enjoy drinking it but there are so many other good choices today compared to then.
 
Gotta throw a bone to Smuttynose here. I emailed asking for help cloning their RIS, and got a full percentage recipe. Some stand-up guys up there in the 'mouth. Can't wait to tour the new brewery!
 
soo jealous of you all. but seriously - congrats! this is turning out to be an awesome thread for finding helpful breweries.
 
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