First time all grain - big beer or not?

Hi all, I'm really leaning towards going all grain soon... I'm in the process of acquiring the stuff for my 10gal MLT now and received a 30qt turkey fryer for christmas (fermcap-S is on the way). I started brewing about a month ago and I'm prepping for my fourth batch in about two weeks (not counting the apfelwine I'll be making this weekend). So far I have a pale ale bottled (came out pretty damn good) an Amber that is going to the bottle this weekend, and a hef that I just started last weekend. I really want to do a chocolate oatmeal stout, but I also want to start doing all grain. Would it be ill advised to take on a big beer for my first all grain batch or should I make it with extract? I have a good recipe for the extract version. So ultimately, Big beer or go for something a little bit more simple for my first AG?

Go big...my second All Grain brew was an oatmeal stout, then followed that with another oatmeal stout with some chocolate malt!!

Tasty

If you're comfortable with the processes involved in going AG, then just do it. Figure out your recipe as AG and go for it. I've made three extract (plus specialty grains) brews, one PM and will be making my first AG this weekend. I tend to go on the big-brew side, so that's what my first AG is going to be (it's either a really strong pale ale, or lower end English Barleywine, around 9% ABV)... I've just pitched my yeast into the starter for this brew (tonight)...

If you're not already using software to help figure out your recipe's, I would. I'm using Beer Smith and it's helping me to figure out what (exactly) I want to put into my brews, and how much I need to hit my target.

I would plan to have some DME on hand, just in case you really miss your target OG... At least until you've dialed-in your gear.

My own 70 quart cooler is almost ready to be my mash tun (using the BIAB method)... I just need to get a different pipe fitting to pass through the side wall of the cooler (where the plug was before) and I'll be good to go.

If your turkey fryer is aluminum, just remember to condition it before you use it. I'll be doing mine before brew day (will just fit into the oven, so I'll be using that method).

I'm already planning on my next two brews (also AG) and love how the cost keeps going down. It helps that I plan to start washing my yeast too. I expect that come spring, I'll be picking up a grain mill and 55 pound sacks of grain (2 row and MO)... I might even pick up some specialty grains (probably 10 pound bags of those) to have on hand. Or at least the stuff that I'm tending to use more of. Having all this on hand, means that you can almost brew on the sperm of the moment.

ha, I'm sure since I'm not making this for two more weeks that I'll have plenty of time to continue researching and build my tun. Honestly, who can have a brand new shiny toy (MLT) and not want to use it? I think I'm going to give it a crack and hope for the best.

BIAB method makes it a lot easier on you... Less cleanup, less complicated mash tun, etc...

Golddiggie said:

BIAB method makes it a lot easier on you... Less cleanup, less complicated mash tun, etc...

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No offense, I don't really see how this would necessarily be easier. I understand it makes doing all grain possible without an MLT, but it seems to me that its nearly the same process with less equipment and having to lug around and drain a 10-15 lb bag of grain. If I have my MLT built, wouldn't it make more sense to use it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a very simple process all grain w/ batch sparging is the following.

Preheat MLT
Add strike water
dough in
mash for however long while heating sparge water
drain first runnings
sparge/lauter
sparge/lauter
profit

This is how I understand how the BIAB process works

Heat strike water
Dough in
Watch your temp like a hawk, fire if necessary
in a separate kettle heat sparge water
move grains to sparge kettle and sparge
mix first runnings and sparge water
boil

If my understanding of both these processes is correct, in my opinion it would seem that using the MLT would almost be easier. If I'm mistaken please feel free to correct me.

i say go big. imo, there is a little more wiggle room for error in big beers. the lighter crisp beers take a little more finesse because there is much less tolerance for off flavors. the main thing to be concerned about is your mash temp. with a high OG beer; too high of a temp and you can have an excessively sweet and unbalanced beer, too low and your beer might be entirely too alcoholic and lack the required body. obviously this is super simplified. i'm just talking from my own experience in going from extract to AG--all of my mistakes were in the mash temp.

I don't think it matters doing a big beer or small beer as your first all grain. You should understand that you might not get as good of efficiency on a bigger beer than you would doing a normal gravity.
As far as doing a bigger beer, the first question that popped into my head while reading your post was in regards to yeast knowledge. If you have sufficient knowledge of pitching rates, then have at it. Pitching, temp control and mash temp are going to be the bigger factors in doing a big beer. Good luck and have fun.

That's one question that I've been trying to figure out is exactly what mash temp to shoot for. I'm assuming software would help me figure that out? I'm debating about buying promash or beersmith, any thoughts?

veritas524 said:

That's one question that I've been trying to figure out is exactly what mash temp to shoot for. I'm assuming software would help me figure that out? I'm debating about buying promash or beersmith, any thoughts?

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You're not really giving us much to go on. Your idea of big and my idea of big are probably different. What OG are you shooting for and posting a recipe would probably help. When i brew my RIS, I usually mash at about 149 for 60 minutes and then bring it up to 158ish, then mashout. By the time all of that is done I have a pretty fermentable wort that usually ends around 1.015. That is where i prefer it to end, but that's too dry for some.

I know this isn't huge, but the biggest beer I have done so far has been about 1.055.

This is the extract recipe I would use if I was doing extract. I've seen some recipes for AG chocolate oatmeal stouts that all clock in around 1.070 to 1.080

½ lb Crystal 80
½ lb Chocolate Malt
½ lbRoasted Barley
½ lb Black Malt
1 lb Flaked Oats (uncrushed)
EXTRACTS USED: 8 pounds of Pale malt extract

this should come out to 1.065 - 1.075

1.070-1.080 isn't huge by any stretch of the imagination. I would probably mash your recipe at about 151-152. I do think that you need to get some software. I use beertools because that is what I got as a gift and just kept it. I like it. Try the different free ones and play with them.
Internet in the war zone is so damn slow that I have to go do other things. Not meaning to abandon you.

I understand, I'm active duty too actually.

New here, but what did you mean --- Condition the turkey fryer pot?
Thank you!

veritas524 said:

No offense, I don't really see how this would necessarily be easier. I understand it makes doing all grain possible without an MLT, but it seems to me that its nearly the same process with less equipment and having to lug around and drain a 10-15 lb bag of grain. If I have my MLT built, wouldn't it make more sense to use it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a very simple process all grain w/ batch sparging is the following.

Preheat MLT
Add strike water
dough in
mash for however long while heating sparge water
drain first runnings
sparge/lauter
sparge/lauter
profit

This is how I understand how the BIAB process works

Heat strike water
Dough in
Watch your temp like a hawk, fire if necessary
in a separate kettle heat sparge water
move grains to sparge kettle and sparge
mix first runnings and sparge water
boil

If my understanding of both these processes is correct, in my opinion it would seem that using the MLT would almost be easier. If I'm mistaken please feel free to correct me.

Click to expand...

I'm "converting" my 70 quart cooler into my BIAB mash tun (adding a ball valve assembly and high temp tube)... With the bag containing the grains, it means I won't need to install any filtering hardware, nor lose any fluid at the bottom of the cooler. I'll still sparge as normal, and mash as you would with grain (using the cooler means no need to 'watch like a hawk')... Even when I did my partial mash with the BIAB method I didn't need to do anything excessive for maintaining my water temps. With the 24" [nylon] square grain bag, there's plenty of room for the grain too.

Cleanup will be easier too, since I won't need to strip down the entire assembly and try to gather up all the spent grain (by hand)...

I'm not doing the same exact method as DeathBrewer for his stove top partial, or AG in a bag method. Tweaking it by adding the cooler makes it more of a hybrid method, taking the best of both worlds.

michiganflyer said:

New here, but what did you mean --- Condition the turkey fryer pot?
Thank you!

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From the equipment section: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/faq-aluminum-pots-boil-kettles-49449/

Boiling your wort in an aluminum pot will cause off-flavours in your beer. FALSE. Simply boiling a batch of wort will not remove enough metal from your aluminum pot to get into your beer and cause metallic off flavours, particularly if you build up a passive oxide layer inside the pot first. For new pots, this is easily achieved by either boiling the pot full of water for 30 mins to one hour, or by putting it in your oven for 10 mins at 350 F.

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I'll be placing my 32 quart aluminum pot inside the oven later (for ~10 minutes) to get the passive oxide layer on it... I'll probably do the cover too, just to cover everything... Seriously thinking about doing either a longer single session, or one a day until brew day (this coming Sunday) to get a nice layer on it...

I'm going to agree with BreckBastion on this one... A 1.065-1.075 brew isn't a huge one, it could be a 'big beer' depending on how it finishes. Most consider 'high gravity' to be above 1.100, which is really big beer territory. "Huge" would be over 1.130 (in my opinion) for a beer.

Do keep in mind, the higher the OG, the longer it can take to ferment. It could also need some good time batch aging before it's really pleasant to drink.

Software will also help you to see where the brew should finish (for a FG)...

I wouldn't be afraid to try a higher gravity AG. It sounds like you know what you are doing. Just make sure you have it all planned out and keep the following in mind for bigger beers:
1. Make sure you have enough healthy yeast ready to go.
2. Either be prepared to adjust your hop schedule if you are going to boil down or know the math for adding extract. Along with that, make sure you have an accurate method of measuring volume.
It sounds like you have the temps worked out. 150-154 should work well according to what you posted.
My first AG was a big beer (OG: 1.105) I messed it up pretty good, made it work, and learned a ton.

j_adkison27 said:

I wouldn't be afraid to try a higher gravity AG. It sounds like you know what you are doing. Just make sure you have it all planned out and keep the following in mind for bigger beers:
1. Make sure you have enough healthy yeast ready to go.
2. Either be prepared to adjust your hop schedule if you are going to boil down or know the math for adding extract. Along with that, make sure you have an accurate method of measuring volume.
It sounds like you have the temps worked out. 150-154 should work well according to what you posted.
My first AG was a big beer (OG: 1.105) I messed it up pretty good, made it work, and learned a ton.

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Thanks for the encouragement . I think I have a fairly decent grasp of the process... I just need to step up and do it it. My only concern is the small pot size, but I was told fermcap should alieve any concerns. Worst case scenario I can remove some sort and wait 30 minutes for it to boil down a Tad and re-add it

Well, I took an existing recipe and tweaked it a tad... How does this look for my first AG batch?


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: oatmeal stout
Brewer: Matt
Asst Brewer:
Style: Oatmeal Stout
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (0.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.49 gal
Estimated OG: 1.059 SG
Estimated Color: 30.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 33.8 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 72.07 %
1.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 9.01 %
0.60 lb Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 5.41 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 4.50 %
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 4.50 %
0.50 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 4.50 %
1.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.60 %] (60 min) Hops 29.0 IBU
0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.60 %] (15 min) Hops 4.8 IBU
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 11.10 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 13.88 qt of water at 170.1 F 154.0 F

I think that sounds pretty good.

I have done two all grain brews since returning to the hobby after a 10 year layoff. My goal is to work with a basic recipe and get it exactly right. I am looking for taste, OG, FG and efficency.

I have learned alot after doing research for a couple of months. I have built some equipment and improvised with what I owned.

So far my first brew (Amber Ale) was quite drinkable. Second one is still aging in the bottle. Third one is planned for end of January.

After I really nail this recipe and hit all my objectives I will move on to another recipe.

Did I mention that this is a really interesting hobby? Happy New Year - Mike..

You will be an outlier if you get 75% efficiency on your first AG. Not impossible, but not likely. I'd plan for 65% and be pleasantly surprised if you do better... nothing's worse than being frustrated at a low OG and scrambling to fix it.

Oh, and for the love of satan, DO NOT FORGET TO TAKE A PREBOIL GRAVITY READING.

I was guilty of this my first AG and I think a lot of others are too. I went through an entire 6.5 hour process, fumbling along with every step, only to find out the "IPA" I was supposed to be making had an OG of 1.044.

Had I taken a preboil reading, I could have added more DME to make it up. That's what I get for trusting Papazian and thinking I could get the same efficiency as he expects in his books (which is like 85% or something!) Turns out 68% was much more accurate.

kanzimonson said:

You will be an outlier if you get 75% efficiency on your first AG. Not impossible, but not likely. I'd plan for 65% and be pleasantly surprised if you do better... nothing's worse than being frustrated at a low OG and
scrambling to fix it.

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Why is this?

It's a variety of factors. The biggest influence on your efficiency is your crush, and most homebrew shops crush so that even the best mash procedures get about 80% max. Most people fall right around 70%.

But then there's the inexplicable stuff - there's just something to be said for familiarizing yourself with your system. For example, I moved this past summer. Before moving, I sold almost all of my equipment in anticipation of buying new stuff when I arrived. I wanted to make some upgrades, etc. When I bought my new system, my efficiency went down several points to 70%. Once I got familiar with it (a few batches), I raised that up to 75-78%. That's for my typical beers, which are usually 1.055-1.060 and use about 14# of grain.

So this brings me to another point to a new AG brewer - you'll probably be obsessed with making changes in your system to improve it, but you gotta take it slowly and make just one change at a time. I actually didn't consciously change anything in my system to go from 70 to 78%... it was just familiarity.

kanzimonson said:

So this brings me to another point to a new AG brewer - you'll probably be obsessed with making changes in your system to improve it, but you gotta take it slowly and make just one change at a time. I actually didn't consciously change anything in my system to go from 70 to 78%... it was just familiarity.

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How many brewings did it take before you had your new setup 'dialed-in'?

Yeah i think the first AG batch i did i got about 60% efficiency....was kind of bummed about that..but i figure out my problem and the second AG batch i did i think i got about 74% or so..My problem was my sparge, i tried to fly sparge my first time so the second time i did a batch sparge. Figured that problem out quickly

Golddiggie said:

How many brewings did it take before you had your new setup 'dialed-in'?

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When I first started AG, I'd say it took about 8-10 batches before I felt like I understood my system.

Then when I upgraded, it took about 3 batches until I got to that same level.