Off taste after 3-4 weeks

I have now made about 6 batches of beer and all of them have had the same fate. All have been extract recipes from various companies, all except one used specialty grains. My equipment was all new last year. I started using oxi clean, then went to idophor, then star san. The first 4 batches were bottled, the last two were kegged. I have used both dry and activator smack pack yeasts. Iam using a turkey fryer with spring water (several brands) I have a homemade immersion chiller and usually have it cooled down in less than 15 minutes. I have fermented at anywhere from 58-70 degrees and cold crashed the last batch for 7 days in my keezer at 34 degrees. The problem shows up about 3-4 weeks after bottling or kegging. The beer tastes great when it is green, but once it ages it develops an ice tea/cardboard/yeasty taste. I can't put my finger on exactly what the taste is, but it really sucks having a great tasting beer turn like that. My next batch is an all grain batch so I guess I will be able to rule out extract twang. If it shows up in that batch I am all out of ideas, other than drinking really really fast! Does anyone have any suggestions of what may be causing this?

I suspect oxidation. From my wine making I have become anal about oxidation. I purge all vessels with CO2 before racking into them. I push with CO2 when racking out of carboys. I top off all head space with CO2 and check it every 2 weeks during conditioning by using a lighter at the edge of the carboy lip (it should extinguish).

Purge your kegs with CO2 prior to filling and insure the headspace is purged before you seal it up to carbonate. Keep your racking process as closed as possible.

Good luck, keep at it

What is the type of yeast that you're using and the fermentation steps that you're undertaking with your beer? The yeast biscuit taste is common to some strains of yeast, as well as having some yeast still in suspension due to a lack of aging and conditioning.

I'm willing to bet that if you let the beer condition for a few more weeks in the bottle/keg, that it'll taste completely different. Cold conditioning (in a fridge) can also help floc out a lot of yeast, and a cold crash for a week (3 weeks fermenting in primary, 1 week cold crash) can help settle out more of that taste.

I have used 6 different types of yeast. I started with a two stage fermentation, then went two weeks in the bucket, and have went as long a 4 weeks in the bucket. I have since tried some 6 month old beer and the taste has actually gotten stronger.
I too am now guessing it is oxidation, but all the threads seem to say that it is quite hard to oxidize beer so thus why I posted to see if there may be some other problem here.

It's hard to oxidize beer if you're doing things correctly and paying decent attention, but not too hard otherwise. What's your bottling routine like? I think most oxidation happens at bottling. It's actually a fairly common defect in homebrews, to one degree or another.

What you are describing is my exact problem.

I do extract brewing. I have an oxygen system. I do very late extract additions. I follow the 10 steps to extract brewing. And except for one oatmeal stout, all of them have had this astringent after taste. I think the stout may have covered the twang taste, but I cannot make an extract pale ale, and I have tried, 10 batches.

I keep hearing that it is the "Extract astringency" on this forum. So I just got a 20 gallon pot and I will start all grain brewing.

It's just so disconcerting to brew batch after batch, and then be disappointed.

I'm not quitting, I'm doubling down.

Grossy said:

What you are describing is my exact problem.

I do extract brewing. I have an oxygen system. I do very late extract additions. I follow the 10 steps to extract brewing. And except for one oatmeal stout, all of them have had this astringent after taste. I think the stout may have covered the twang taste, but I cannot make an extract pale ale, and I have tried, 10 batches.

I keep hearing that it is the "Extract astringency" on this forum. So I just got a 20 gallon pot and I will start all grain brewing.

It's just so disconcerting to brew batch after batch, and then be disappointed.

I'm not quitting, I'm doubling down.

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I don't mean to rain on your parade, but it's not the extract. Almost every shop gets their extract from one of a couple of sources, and almost everyone is able to brew with extract without any astringence (which just DOES NOT come from extract) or "twang." Unless your LHBS is not storing their extracts properly, it's something in your process that is causing problems.

What kind of water are you guys using?

Ok so here I sit drinking my latest brew...an american bock from the home brewery. Really no taste at first followed by a bitter/cardboard like taste, and I swear with the off taste the color of the head has changed from pure white to somewhat of a tan color. Does this mean anything?? As far as my process, when I keg the beer I merely clean the keg out, add a star san solution and shake the keg, then I pressurize with c02 run the solution out the line and de pressurize and remove the lid. Then I shake the majority of the foam out and rack directly from fermenter to keg. Then I install the lid, pressurize, bleed, pressurize, bleed, pressurize, put in keezer and force carb at 30psi for 3 days at 34 deg., lower to 10psi for 2 days, and drink! It tastes great for 1-3 weeks, but then this damn taste comes out of nowhere and seems to appear all at once!

I have used nusery water, spring water, distilled water, and purified water. All did the same thing!

showdown496 said:

I started using oxi clean, then went to idophor, then star san.

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This line concerns me a bit. You must clean AND sanitize. In that sentence you are listing one cleaner and two sanitizers. How are you cleaning your kegs? Are you dismantling them, soaking them in a cleaner (like PBW or Oxyclean) re-assembling and then sanitizing (with something like Starsan)?

I am cleaning and sanitizing the keg, as I did with the bottles as well. What I meant was that originally I used the oxiclean that came with my kit, at the time I thought it was an infection and I switched to idophor, when I ran out of it I switched to the star san. But I still clean with oxiclean.

I have had similar problems before. A couple batches turned out that way and I could never figure out why. I would tend to blame not pitching enough healthy yeast and not having the best control over the fermentation temp.

I monitor temps pretty close and they stay right where I intend for them to be (well within the yeast range). Like I said I have tried several different yeasts and always have a healthy bubble in the airlock. Opps I know that doesnt count!!!

Yooper said:

What kind of water are you guys using?

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I have used tap water (which is ground water and chlorine), bottled spring water, reverse osmosis water, all with the same result.

The "10 tips above" have informed me that when extract is made, it's mineral content stays in the extract. So I started using reverse osmosis.

I cool my beer in about 45 minutes, and I have a fermentation chamber set at 65 degrees.

When I taste my beer when it is green, it taste great (except for the green taste), then 3 weeks later, there is this astringent after taste.

I was so exciting when I tried your 60min DFH IPA. When it was green it was good, it was drinkable when it was green.

Now when I finish off a glass, there is this after taste.

Grossy said:

I have used tap water (which is ground water and chlorine), bottled spring water, reverse osmosis water, all with the same result.

The "10 tips above" have informed me that when extract is made, it's mineral content stays in the extract. So I started using reverse osmosis.

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This might be part of your problem. Ro/distilled is NOT recommended for extract batches according to John Palmer.

How to Brew said:

How To Brew Your First Beer...

....Do not use Distilled (De-ionized) water. Beer, and Ale particularly, needs the minerals for flavor. The yeast need the minerals for proper growth. A good bet for your first batch of beer is the bottled water sold in most supermarkets as Drinking Water.

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I don't agree with that- RO water is perfectly fine for all brewing, and extract especially. But if the taste is there all the time, no matter what the water source, it's not the water. It's something else. RO or DI water might make "bland" beer (I'd even debate that) but certainly not any sort of off-flavor.

"Something else" might be hard to nail down. Pitching temperature (should be under 70, under 65 preferably), pitching rate (especially with liquid yeast, underpitching is a problem), and so on should be looked at.

If it tastes good at bottling, and then gets astringent after packaging, I'd consider packaging issues first. I'd look at the procedure, including possible oxidation, the cleanliness of the bottles or kegs, etc. Can you give us a run down on that part of the process?

Describe your " astrigent" taste. I would say let them go another month-see what you get.+1 on giving a detailed process. Thats why i right everything down.Its a little easier to detect a pattern. Say a certain brand of water,or yeast, or malt, maybe too fine a crush,bad ph....
I would consider rinsing with preboiled water especially if you have too concentrated a cleaner/sanitizer.

The taste I am noticing is a bitter/ cardboard taste. I actually tried a piece of wet cardboard and the tastes were similar, but the beer had more of a bitter bite to it. As I said I have let the beer age anywhere from 1 month to 6-8 months and the taste didnt seem to change. I have wrote everything down and I have changed everything with no change to taste. I thought that with starsan there was no danger of off flavors even if you didnt dump whatever you sanitized?
I think my issue is that I am not purging the keg before I rack into it what do you all think?

I never purge the O2 from my keg before transferring into it. However, I do make sure the end of my auto-siphon tube is all the way at the bottom of the keg so I don't get any splashing and I always purge the O2 once it's sealed. I never have had any off cardboard flavors. If you're following the same steps i'd be surprised if that was it, but what the hell do i know

showdown496 said:

The taste I am noticing is a bitter/ cardboard taste. I actually tried a piece of wet cardboard and the tastes were similar, but the beer had more of a bitter bite to it. As I said I have let the beer age anywhere from 1 month to 6-8 months and the taste didnt seem to change. I have wrote everything down and I have changed everything with no change to taste. I thought that with starsan there was no danger of off flavors even if you didnt dump whatever you sanitized?
I think my issue is that I am not purging the keg before I rack into it what do you all think?

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That sounds like oxidation. It could be from a variety of places- usually at transferring or packaging. But usually oxidation starts off just a little off- first some astringency on the sides of the tongue. Then, as the beer ages, it turns into some sherry like flavors, and when it gets older it gets more severe, like cardboard.

Agreed, it does sound like oxidation somewhere along the line. It sounds like your packaging process may be the issue. What's it like for bottles/kegs?

This might have been my problem as well with my pumpkin ale. When I kegged this one I wasn't paying close attention to it and the end of the tube wasn't always in the beer.

I'm glad this came up because I was worried is was something more serious. Oxidation should be an easy thing to fix.

Now if mine isn't oxidation then I have a bigger problem lol Anyone want some samples to taste? hahaha

Try to check the pH at bottling or kegging time . I've heard in a Podcast that pH is important even by extract batches .

I would also add some Ascorbic acid ( Anti-oxidant ) at the time of bottling or kegging .

Hector

Im glad you brought this up. I have had the exact same issue with either the cardboard or even chemical taste after a few months in the bottle. I thought maybe it was just green but it tastes the same after a year. I am super interested to see if your beer tastes the same after you go to all grain. I am using extract also and all my 7 beers have had an off flavor to some extent.

The only part of the process where I would have a problem with oxidation is when I start off the siphon with the bottle want on the end. I havent figured out the trick to keeping it open, pumping and getting all the bubles out of the line without losing about 2 beers worth in the process...

Let me know what you find.

UPDATE: I brewed my 1st ag batch, fermented for 2 weeks and then a week in the keezer for a cold crash, then racked to keg with c02 running to purge oxygen, and i sure thought that the siphon hose was at the bottom of the keg to avoid splashing, but hard to see with the foam from the star san. Forced carbed and sampled after 3 days in the keg...a really excellent beer! now that almost a week has passed since kegging....same bitter? taste, makes you pucker and has a bitter flavor on the sides and back of your tounge. Its not hops bitter (which is pleasant) it sticks on your tounge for some time. No malt flavor up front at all, lack of flavor followed by bitter. If you swallow really fast after drinking though, it is a lot harder to notice LOL, but seriously if you do swallow fast the hop taste comes back and maybe even a little malt flavor. Is it possible that the water i use with the starsan could be causing this? I just use tap water, which smells badly of chlorine.

showdown496 said:

UPDATE: I brewed my 1st ag batch, fermented for 2 weeks and then a week in the keezer for a cold crash, then racked to keg with c02 running to purge oxygen, and i sure thought that the siphon hose was at the bottom of the keg to avoid splashing, but hard to see with the foam from the star san. Forced carbed and sampled after 3 days in the keg...a really excellent beer! now that almost a week has passed since kegging....same bitter? taste, makes you pucker and has a bitter flavor on the sides and back of your tounge. Its not hops bitter (which is pleasant) it sticks on your tounge for some time. No malt flavor up front at all, lack of flavor followed by bitter. If you swallow really fast after drinking though, it is a lot harder to notice LOL, but seriously if you do swallow fast the hop taste comes back and maybe even a little malt flavor. Is it possible that the water i use with the starsan could be causing this? I just use tap water, which smells badly of chlorine.

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That's a small amount of tap water, but it won't hurt to use distilled water to mix your star-san.

One thing to try next time is to bottle a couple of beers when you keg. See if the same "flavor" is in the bottles as in the keg.

Another thing to try- if you're using a kegerator and faucets to dispense, maybe try a "new" line with a picnic tap. Perhaps the issue is in the lines and faucets?

Do you take apart the kegs at each cleaning and sanitizing?

I have had this issue in the past with bottles as well, I bought my kegging equipment new with the exception of the keg. I don't completley disassemble the keg, just run cleaning solution out of the liquid line. I guess I could try bottling a couple, how much priming sugar would one bottle take? As far as the tap water, I usually mix up about 3 gallons of starsan/water solution to sanitize everything, Is that enough tap water to harm anything?

I think I have now finally figured it out!!! I finally got a draft tower to replace the picnic tap on my keg. I have always force carbed my kegs, (30 psi for 3 days then i set to 12psi at 34 degrees) The beer has been great after the 3 days then 1 week later malt and hop tastes fade and the bitter bite happens. I was playing with the regulator to dial in a pressure for serving (2-3 psi) and accidentally forgot to turn it back up to keep the beer carbed. 3 days of this and the taste seems to be getting better!!!! I have now assumed that the beer was still carbing for the first week and then was overcarbed causing the bitter taste! I can't explain why my bottles were doing this but I sure hope I have figured it out finally! I never would have thought that would cause off flavors, but after noticing the taste getting better and a quick search of hbt I now understand what can cause it.

Update?

Revvy said:

This might be part of your problem. Ro/distilled is NOT recommended for extract batches according to John Palmer.

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RO water is the stuff labeled drinking water in supermarkets

Serving at 34 degrees would enhance bitterness as well

flabyboy said:

RO water is the stuff labeled drinking water in supermarkets

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No, it's not. Drinking water is sometimes just called "drinking water" or spring water. RO water comes from the reverse osmosis process, sometimes with the big water machine in the store, or sometimes bottled water. They are not the same thing- check the label!

In our town, we have a water bottling company that is called "Crystal Spring" water. The truth is, it's Crystal Falls city water, right out of the tap. So anybody that thinks they are getting "bottled drinking water" is both right and wrong!

Yooper. I have checked the labels. The labels on the jugs at Walmart show Reverse Osmosis as the form of filtration for the "Drinking Water". UV and something else treats the Spring Water and we all know how distilled water is filtered. Every jug I have seen labeled as "Drinking Water" also says Reverse Osmosis as the process. HyVee and Walmart, Culligan are the brands I have looked at. I can't speak from experience on other brands

I have asked this same question and the wet cardboard is a good way to describe it,having only made 3 batches ,from what I am reading oxidation and ferment temp could cause this..no?...after I cool the wort I am dumping through a strainer into a bucket could this be whats oxidizing the batch?

luvinit said:

I have asked this same question and the wet cardboard is a good way to describe it,having only made 3 batches ,from what I am reading oxidation and ferment temp could cause this..no?...after I cool the wort I am dumping through a strainer into a bucket could this be whats oxidizing the batch?

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No. This is the time you want to add oxygen. Right before pitching the yeast. It's really the only time you purposely want to introduce O2 to your brew

Yooper said:

In our town, we have a water bottling company that is called "Crystal Spring" water. The truth is, it's Crystal Falls city water, right out of the tap. So anybody that thinks they are getting "bottled drinking water" is both right and wrong!

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I actually drink that brand when it goes on sale. I figured it was a bunch of dudes bottling tap water from somewhere, now I know! You use it to brew with?

Taypo said:

I actually drink that brand when it goes on sale. I figured it was a bunch of dudes bottling tap water from somewhere, now I know! You use it to brew with?

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No, I don't. The alkalinity is too high, but the chlorine is low enough. I don't drink it, either. I just drink tap water!

I believe a lot of the jugs of drinking water are city municipal water that are put thru the RO process. The Walmart drinking water is treated Chippewa Falls city water

Sorry for the lack of update....I'm still not sure if that is the problem or not and I'm to stubborn to take the keg out and let it sit for a few days to decarb completley, but the taste has definitley gotten better. I have another batch that will be ready to go in a week or so and plan to slowly carb it to avoid overcarbing so we will see what that batch does.