What constitutes "big"? (Plus, pics from my 1st brew day)

I am trying to get an idea of what the general consensus is on "Big" beers, specifically for beers that deserve more time from kettle to glass.

Working from the general consensus of 3 weeks in primary, 3 weeks in bottle as the baseline norm that most seem to be comfortable recommending(regardless of how soon the active fermentation petered out, and provided SG is stable) what beers deviate from this?

What beers are best (or fine) to go ahead and bottle once FG is reached?

What beers should be left in primary longer than 3 weeks? Is this based on style? ABV?

Without going into dry-hopping, lagers, fruit additions, or wood additions, what beers should be racked to secondary for additional bulk conditioning?

Any difference in Extract vs. Grain in this regard?


Thanks, also some pics of my 1st brew day, an Irish Red extract kit. Everything went fairly smoothly, easy in fact.



Protect the stove



Stainless Rod notched in Gallon increments



Sanitize all the things. Don't fear the foam they tell me.



Steeping.



Boiling, in go hops



Chill out! hose was JUST long enough to make the hose connection outside. Perfect.



Here comes the Krausen. Pitched yeast at 74 (White labs package says 70-75). Temps during fermentation has been steady at 63-67.

First brew day? You are kidding me! It took me about twice as long to clean up after my first brew day than it did to actually brew. Looks like you are quite organized.

"Big Beers" mean different things to different people. I generally go with anything over a OG of 1.065 is a big beer and can stand some bulk aging, making exceptions for double IPA's which I'd rather have fresh.

Hey Ray, and welcome to the forum.

First, let me state that I have brew kettle envy . . .

As for your questions, I won't claim to be the expert on many items, but I will note this: The 3 week "rule" is more of a generalization. Ultimately, you are OK to bottle most beers once you have a stable gravity reading - meaning 3 readings on separate days the are the same, and in the vicinity of your desired FG. However, it has been suggested that most beers will improve with a little extra conditioning in the primary, and it doesn't hurt to leave the beer on the trub for 3 weeks.

I don't recommend leaving any beer in primary longer than 3 weeks. By this time, you're surely done with primary fermentation, and sitting on the trub longer than 3 weeks MAY affect your beer, as the yeast can go through a process called autolysis, where they die and the cell walls burst, releasing off flavors into the beer. By the time you've hit this point, you should consider racking to a secondary.

Many people on this forum don't recommend using secondary unless you are specifically adding the items you mentioned. However, I know of a number of brewers who use secondary's to clear their beer (they rack as the SG is approaching, but has not quite reached the FG). Others argue that cold crashing just prior to transferring to a bottling bucket will serve the same purpose. And while I'm sure there are beer styles that improve with bulk conditioning, I've not brewed any of them, and can't think of any off the top of my head.

As far as I know, there is no difference in this regard between all grain brewing and extract brewing.

Anyhow, I'm sure others will respond and tell me where I'm wrong Until then, enjoy brewing . . . and visit often to tell us what you're up to!

unionrdr said:

The autolysis boogieman is dead & gone. that was from the days of yeasts that weren't as good as now. Hell,even then the brewer's yeast I used to make sparkling wines were pretty good if treated properly.

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Of course, you're correct for the most part. It's HIGHLY UNLIKELY autolysis will occur as early as 3 weeks . . . or even 3 months, for the most part. And yes, as many brewers here have noted, there is more risk of off flavors from infection or oxidation from transferring to secondary than leaving on trub for 4-6 weeks.

This doesn't mean yeast doesn't go through autolysis. Just that it's not likely to occur as soon now as in the past.

It's interesting to note that what we view as bad in beer is viewed as necessary in champagne . . . wines can't be granted the appellation unless they sit on their autolysing lees for a minimum of 15 months (non vintage - vintage champagnes must sit 3 years).

I consider a "big" beer to be anything that is 7%abv and up.

When I brew these beers I let them sit in the fermentor a couple weeks so the yeast can clean up after a heavier fermentation. I also bottle condition longer than usual, to allow the flavors and alcohol heat to "mellow."

Anything over 1.060 I generally consider big. Depends on the malt--for some reason English ales taste heavier to me than an American IPA of the same gravity. I dont have any "rule" about how to handle the timeframe for bigger beers. I read the yeast manufacturers recommendations, take gravity readings and bottle/keg when I have time knowing that fermentation is complete.

I find that it's just as important to give it time once it's packaged. When I keg my beer it tastes drastically different at the 2 week mark vs the 6 week mark. Older always tastes better.

German wheat beers are an exception to the 3/3 rule. I'd go as far as to say you've missed the peak at 6 weeks. Once they hit FG unless there are non-desirable off-flavors there's absolutely no reason not to go straight to bottle, often in 6-10 days. Then 2 weeks in bottles they're ready, or even sooner in kegs.

Wow, you did some reading before jumping in to that first batch. I'm still not as tidy and efficient! Congrats! Welcome to your new addiction.

For me, a 'big' beer is anything over about 7% (+/-)... How long I leave it in primary depends on a few factors. If I'm going to age it on something, then I transfer to an aging vessel for X months. Otherwise it goes from primary to serving kegs when it's ready. That can be anywhere from 1-4 months after pitching the yeast slurry (from the starter).

Also, for me a really BIG beer needs to be over 10%. I have one carbonating now (a 12.5% wee heavy) and have another that finished fermenting not that long ago (went about two months actively fermenting). The second one (an English BW) should be in the area of 15.3%. Planning to let that one rest for at least a few more weeks, to better flocculate, before I transfer to aging vessel with some oak (from a MM46 barrel :rockin.

I think your now officially dangerous and believe your extract lesson is over, time to make a mash tun.

masterfool101 said:

Of course, you're correct for the most part. It's HIGHLY UNLIKELY autolysis will occur as early as 3 weeks . . . or even 3 months, for the most part. And yes, as many brewers here have noted, there is more risk of off flavors from infection or oxidation from transferring to secondary than leaving on trub for 4-6 weeks.

This doesn't mean yeast doesn't go through autolysis. Just that it's not likely to occur as soon now as in the past.

It's interesting to note that what we view as bad in beer is viewed as necessary in champagne . . . wines can't be granted the appellation unless they sit on their autolysing lees for a minimum of 15 months (non vintage - vintage champagnes must sit 3 years).

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Some on here have left beer on the yeast cake for 5-6 months with no autolysis. I've gone 5 weeks in primary on my Burton ale without it. It's pretty rare to non-existent nowadays.

Sorta off your topic but based on your pics did you boil with the steeping grains still in your wort? I'm a beginner but I thought most recipes called for removing the steeping grains before bringing up to boil.

Cheers.

n_c_n said:

Sorta off your topic but based on your pics did you boil with the steeping grains still in your wort? I'm a beginner but I thought most recipes called for removing the steeping grains before bringing up to boil.

Cheers.

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I believe those were the hops.

DrunkleJon said:

I believe those were the hops.

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Yep. Hop pellets in bags. Looks exactly the same as the grain bag.

Steeping grains came out at 169.

Brother, you've got a much better setup than I have. Kudos to you.

As many other people here have said, the general cutoff is about 7%.

I have had beers sitting sur lees for up to 6 months. Given the temperature in my basement, I'd probably should have a few more lagers going, but $$$ is not in good supply right now.

Keep up the good work. Try to save some of that Irish Red for February

Going to Vail's Big Beers, Belgians, and Barleywines next weekend and a big beer is anything over 7% according to them.

According to Jamil there isn't really ever a need for a secondary unless you are doing a beer such as a barleywine or something that is going to be aged for a long time (due to off flavors from the yeast).

As for the steeping grains, it does look like the OP is steeping in the boil or if nothing else steeping in the full amount of water. Correct me if I am wrong but don't you need a smaller ratio of water to grains for steeping i.e. <1G of water to 1# of grain (Palmer) to reduce tannins and help with flavor?

Anyways congrats on your first brew day and it looks like it was a success.

I hope that is not the case. I just did a similar beer as the OP and my instructions from the LBS said to put grains in cold water using the full volume. Heat to 155 and steep for 30min.

Yourrealdad said:

As for the steeping grains, it does look like the OP is steeping in the boil or if nothing else steeping in the full amount of water. Correct me if I am wrong but don't you need a smaller ratio of water to grains for steeping i.e. <1G of water to 1# of grain (Palmer) to reduce tannins and help with flavor?

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Steeping in 6 gallons, out at 169. No squeezing.

Not sure how full volume steep could be bad, but interested to learn if true.

The hops are in for the boil. 1 bag at 60 min, another at 1 min.

unionrdr said:

The autolysis boogieman is dead & gone. that was from the days of yeasts that weren't as good as now. Hell,even then the brewer's yeast I used to make sparkling wines were pretty good if treated properly.

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This, my cider sat on Montrachet wine yeast for 5 months in the primary, never touched, never moved until kegging...and its amazing.

Someone more experienced should chime in, but according to a few sites I have read and Palmer's book the steeping grains should use a gallon or less per pound of grain. There is a similar ratio I believe for mashing. Like I said someone with more knowledge should explain.

Interesting thought about steeping. next batch I will steep in a smaller side pot while I heat the rest of the water.... should actually speed the process some anyway, so no harm in that.

I don't forsee a huge number of extract batches in my future, as building a Mashtun with a cooler and some braided stainless is already underway.