How do you make (AG) wort for a starter?

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jldc said:
Not being an expert, it was also my impression that wort needed to be pressure canned prior to long term storage. Freezing would probably work for a few months, and refrigeration for a week or two.

I routinely can wort for starters. I try to make it pretty concentrated (1.070 or so) so I can use smaller mason jars/more per batch.

When I make the starter I put a pint of water in my starter flask, boil to sterilize, cool and add the canned wort. Pitch and go.

I don't particularly do it to save money. I do it because I want to keep complete control of my beer. Well, and because if I wanted to do it the easy way, I'd just go buy some beer.

L
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That's a great idea to save space. So a pint of water and a pint of 1.070 wort gets you to what, 1.035?
 
adamreef said:
Pressure cooking is analogous to autoclaving and when performed correctly renders food sterile. However, some foods are notoriously difficult to sterilize with home canning equipment, so expert recommendations should be followed for home processing to avoid food poisoning.
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Correct. However, at some point, you get into diminishing returns.

In my day job, I'm a manufacturing engineer for a big food company. On one project I worked on, I was dealing with the processes for retort sterilization of low-acid products (in this case, the milk discs that are part of the Tassimo coffee/tea system). A retort is basically a pressure cooker.

Knowing that you've rendered something sterile requires a couple of things - knowing how effectively heat penetrates your product (ie, know where the cold spot in your container is and measure it), and how much thermal treatment a product sees (we use a quantity called F0, which is based on the fact that the sterilization effect is exponential with respect to temperature.

Even then, we only consider products "commercially sterile" - that just means that there's been a certain order of magnitude reduction in the population of pathogenic organisms/spores. Typically, we're talking about a 5-9 log reduction of pathogens. So, if you had a flask full of C. botulinum with a population of 1 billion cells and commercially sterilized it, there could still be viable spores.

Sterilization relies on a sanitary process before-hand to reduce the risk of growth in a medium before it's sterilized.
 
Dan said:
Nope, no DME on hand. I used some old LME on the last starter I made and dumped the whole 2000 ml starter into a 10 gallon batch, should have decanted. The final product had a twang to it, like burnt LME.

This time just want to make a starter out of fresh grain.
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Hard to get an answer when people insist you use an alternative method. Boiling for one hour is used to drive off compounds we don't want in our beer. DMS? Don't remember but if you are going to pitch the starter, I'd say boil it for the one hour. If you boil too much off just add some water back for at least the last 10 minutes.
 
adamreef said:
Foods that are highly acidic or that have large amounts of added sugar are included in this group.
Adam
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Wort would be somewhat acidic and high sugar, but I wouldn't recommend water bath unless I KNEW that testing had been done on the medium. A later post points to proper sanitation prior to sterilization so using these techniques might help here. At minimum if I were going to do this I'd take the precaution of doing a healthy boil of the starter prior to using it.
 
Hermit said:
Wort would be somewhat acidic and high sugar, but I wouldn't recommend water bath unless I KNEW that testing had been done on the medium. A later post points to proper sanitation prior to sterilization so using these techniques might help here. At minimum if I were going to do this I'd take the precaution of doing a healthy boil of the starter prior to using it.
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Not enough acidity or sugar to get into the high-acid or low water activity categories in wort. pH generally needs to be <4. Don't remember the water-activity requirements off the top of my head, but I imagine you'd have to get up into the >1.1 SG range to even think about enough sugars.
 
Wow, this thread blew up over night. Dan, I looked up your cooker. I couldn't find "vagor" but I found "Fagor". Typo perharps? Anyway, if it is a Fagor it looks like your model is not meant to can with, just cook. Here is a link to the product manual page for Fagor.

http://www.fagoramerica.com/my_fagor/technical_information

Find your model and download the insturctions and read them. If you can't use it to can, just do as recommended previously and freeze the wort. Boil it before you make a starter with it. Just make sure to leave some headspace in your freezer jars to allow for expansion. If you do end up canning, please pressure can at 15 psi for 15 minutes. Water bathing is not a good idea for wort. This comes up once in a while and I don't know why people even debate it. Might you get away with a water batch, perhaps, but why take that chance. If you do it right the first time, when you pop the top a couple years later you are guranteed to have fresh, sterile wort as long the seal is still good.
 
adamreef said:
How did this work? I would be shocked if it didn't blow right by mash temp (even on low) too fast to get effective conversion.

Adam
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Did I mention my thermometer was also broke? ha ha. So not sure what temp it mashed at but did leave it on the warm setting overnight. This morning I turned off the crockpot let it cool a bit sampled a taste, sweet and tastes like wort. The gravity reading was taken with a refractometer and it came out to be 1.045. I want it lower than that so am boiling some water and will add that to the wort. I think I might boil the wort again anyway because as somebody mentioned earlier no boil will render more trub.

This is kind of a fun experiment for me, I have maybe a dollar worth of grain invested and really nothing to lose.
 
BBL_Brewer said:
Wow, this thread blew up over night. Dan, I looked up your cooker. I couldn't find "vagor" but I found "Fagor". Typo perharps? Anyway, if it is a Fagor it looks like your model is not meant to can with, just cook. Here is a link to the product manual page for Fagor.

http://www.fagoramerica.com/my_fagor/technical_information

Find your model and download the insturctions and read them. If you can't use it to can, just do as recommended previously and freeze the wort. Boil it before you make a starter with it. Just make sure to leave some headspace in your freezer jars to allow for expansion. If you do end up canning, please pressure can at 15 psi for 15 minutes. Water bathing is not a good idea for wort. This comes up once in a while and I don't know why people even debate it. Might you get away with a water batch, perhaps, but why take that chance. If you do it right the first time, when you pop the top a couple years later you are guranteed to have fresh, sterile wort as long the seal is still good.
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Haha, yes it did BBL. And yes your assumption was correct I made a typo it is Fagor. Thanks for the link. I'll check it out in a minute. I think I'm just going to freeze it. There have been some great posts on this thread.!
 
My process is pretty simple and doesn't really take extra time because I do most of it while brewing. On brewdays, I add a gallon or two to the grains after they are sparged. Three of us usually all brew together, so I do the same with their grains as well. I run off all the wort into a wide canning pot, which has a higher boil off rate because of the surface area.

I measure the starting gravity, and calculate how much I need to boil off to get to 1.020 and then further to 1.040. Once its at 1.020, I fill seven pint jars and continue boiling the rest. Once that gets to 1.040, I fill quart jars until it's gone. I can stack 7 quarts and 7 pints in my pressure canner, and I process for 45 minutes at 15psi and let it cool over night on the stove.

I store the jars on a shelf in the basement and use the 1.020 wort for starters from yeast bank or bottle harvesting, then step up to 1.040 as needed to get the yeast volumes required. No boiling or cooling before pitching, just open a jar, pour it into the flask and pitch.... And they are essentially free, except for the propane.
 
I add extra grain and save a few quarts of wort. Can for future use.

I remember reading this about canning in the Home Brew Digest a LONG time ago.
Wort is not low acid like tomatoes.

David
 
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but this is how I usually do my starters (I always use them).

I use DME but the same works for AB. So I make about a gallon of wort with the DME. I use some of it to make a starter for my next brew and store the rest away in capped beer bottles in the fridge.

I mean cool it down, rack off what you need now, and bottle the rest just as you would if you were bottling brew. Cap em, toss em in the fridge, and their ready to rock.

Just let warm to pitching temp and go. Its been pretty successful for me.
 
mthompson said:
My process is pretty simple and doesn't really take extra time because I do most of it while brewing. On brewdays, I add a gallon or two to the grains after they are sparged. Three of us usually all brew together, so I do the same with their grains as well. I run off all the wort into a wide canning pot, which has a higher boil off rate because of the surface area.

I measure the starting gravity, and calculate how much I need to boil off to get to 1.020 and then further to 1.040. Once its at 1.020, I fill seven pint jars and continue boiling the rest. Once that gets to 1.040, I fill quart jars until it's gone. I can stack 7 quarts and 7 pints in my pressure canner, and I process for 45 minutes at 15psi and let it cool over night on the stove.

I store the jars on a shelf in the basement and use the 1.020 wort for starters from yeast bank or bottle harvesting, then step up to 1.040 as needed to get the yeast volumes required. No boiling or cooling before pitching, just open a jar, pour it into the flask and pitch.... And they are essentially free, except for the propane.
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I think my next beer making investment will be a canner. I'm not tight on money but if a few dollars spent will save me money over a lifetime of brewing, I can see a canner being money well invested.
 
Dan said:
I think my next beer making investment will be a canner. I'm not tight on money but if a few dollars spent will save me money over a lifetime of brewing, I can see a canner being money well invested.
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I use my pressure canner for brewing stuff all the time.... Sterilize a lot of stuff and it's ready to use when you need it; Flasks w/stir bar, jars of distilled water for yeast washing, vials with glycerin solution for yeast bank, wort. Just put tinfoil over the flasks and water jars, fill the canner with a bunch of stuff and store on a shelf when cool. No need to rinse with sanitizer before using, and it is sterile (which is necessary with the yeast stuff in my opinion).

I have the 23qt presto, which runs under $100. I use it for food storage as well.... I think everyone should have one.
 
mthompson said:
I have the 23qt presto, which runs under $100. I use it for food storage as well.... I think everyone should have one.
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I have a presto too, I love it. Canning with a gauge is a huge improvement over the jiggler. When I do large runs I use my old jigglers too, and I always hate it now that I've used one with a gauge.
 
BBL_Brewer said:
I have a presto too, I love it. Canning with a gauge is a huge improvement over the jiggler. When I do large runs I use my old jigglers too, and I always hate it now that I've used one with a gauge.
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I use the 3-piece weight regulator. My gauge reads a range of 13-15 psi when I use the same 15 psi weight on different days. Always has, so I don't trust it. The weights are precision-milled to be very accurate. It's nice to 'see' what's going on inside with the gauge though. The gauge is also supposed to be checked annually for accuracy if you rely on one.
 
mthompson said:
I use the 3-piece weight regulator. My gauge reads a range of 13-15 psi when I use the same 15 psi weight on different days. Always has, so I don't trust it. The weights are precision-milled to be very accurate. It's nice to 'see' what's going on inside with the gauge though. The gauge is also supposed to be checked annually for accuracy if you rely on one.
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The one I have has a "jiggler" as well as a gauge. The jiggler part lets off excess pressure and the gauge tells you what pressure you're at. The nice thing is, the jiggler does not actually jiggle until you reach 15 psi, so you have two indicators. When you run a batch at 5 or 10, it just vents steam. I also always run mine one or two psi over just to be sure.
 
I found a 23qt presto canner/pressure cooker for 99 dollars and free shipping. Seems like a decent price. What do you think?
 
Dan said:
I found a 23qt presto canner/pressure cooker for 99 dollars and free shipping. Seems like a decent price. What do you think?
Click to expand...

I bet you can find a better deal than that.... A quick search found this

If you might can foods, you should also get the 3-piece regulator.
 
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On canning and safety:
When I was looking into chilling in the cube, I read a bunch of posts on the Australian forum aussiehomebrewer.com and a bunch of those guys are making wort ahead of time, pouring the hot wort into plastic containers (the hot wort supposedly kills spoilage organisms) and using it weeks or months later. It doesn't seem to be uncommon practice there and I did not read of any posts describing swollen cubes, dead homies, etc...

Just something to consider. May be the combination of heat and the sugary solution itself keep things in check.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=60142
 
ElDuderino said:
On canning and safety:
When I was looking into chilling in the cube, I read a bunch of posts on the Australian forum aussiehomebrewer.com and a bunch of those guys are making wort ahead of time, pouring the hot wort into plastic containers (the hot wort supposedly kills spoilage organisms) and using it weeks or months later. It doesn't seem to be uncommon practice there and I did not read of any posts describing swollen cubes, dead homies, etc...

Just something to consider. May be the combination of heat and the sugary solution itself keep things in check.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=60142
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One post I saw suggested that the plastic is permeable to oxygen and therefore, not botulism. Not the case with glass.
 
mthompson said:
I bet you can find a better deal than that.... A quick search found this

If you might can foods, you should also get the 3-piece regulator.
Click to expand...

So do you replace the existing regulator with that one and use it with the gauge or is this for ones that come with gauges? Does it act more like the old canners with jigglers or is it about the same as when using the regulator that comes with it?
 
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BBL_Brewer said:
So do you replace the existing regulator with that one and use it with the gauge or is this for ones that come with gauges? Does it act more like the old canners with jigglers or is it about the same as when using the regulator that comes with it?
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It is meant to replace the 1-piece regulator that comes with the Presto, either with or without the dial gauge. The 3-piece allows you to maintain pressure at three levels; 5, 10, and 15 psi . The three pieces are the handle, and two rings that slip over the handle; handle = 5 psi, handle + 1 ring = 10 psi, all three pieces = 15 psi.

I suppose the 3-piece regulator is only useful IF you plan on pressure cooking (5 psi) or canning foodstuffs (usually 10 psi at elevations 1000 ft. or less) and don't want to or can't rely on the pressure gauge. Using as a sterilizer you want 15 psi, which in the big 1-piece that comes with the newer Preston.

I do all these with mine, and find it is way easier to listen to the jiggler rocking than constantly physically looking at the gauge. I used the gauge once and found it hard to get the heat setting on the stove correct in order to maintain constant and proper pressure when using the gauge.
 
Some interesting info on canning here - I've one question that I _think_ was answered, but I'd like clarification/confirmation:

If I were to make up a bunch of starter wort and can it ahead of time, assuming I had a pressure canner and used the correct procedures, is there any need to refrigerate the canned wort once processed, or could it safely be stored at room (or basement) temperature?
 
stratslinger said:
Some interesting info on canning here - I've one question that I _think_ was answered, but I'd like clarification/confirmation:

If I were to make up a bunch of starter wort and can it ahead of time, assuming I had a pressure canner and used the correct procedures, is there any need to refrigerate the canned wort once processed, or could it safely be stored at room (or basement) temperature?
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If pressure canned properly, simply store in a cool dark place. Basements a good for this. No need to refrigerate.

There is no 'safe' way to can wort however, but only because studies have not been conducted on the subject. But if you choose a time/pressure that is used for a similar product, you should run into no problems.... Vegetable stock is close I think.

Now, properly canning vegetable stock requires 30 minutes for pints, 35 for quarts at 10 psi. However that is not considered sterilizing temp/pressure. So just bump it to 15 psi, and time for 45 minutes to give it some leeway....as long as the wort was hot when it went in the canner this will be fine. Cooled wort requires a long time to get internal temps up, so I would do long times. Also your elevation will change the times: higher elevation = longer time.
altitudechart.jpg


Make sense?
 
Dan said:
Ok, :off:

BTW BBl ment to say this before.. Great Avatar!
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Thanks Dan :mug:

mthompson said:
It is meant to replace the 1-piece regulator that comes with the Presto, either with or without the dial gauge. The 3-piece allows you to maintain pressure at three levels; 5, 10, and 15 psi . The three pieces are the handle, and two rings that slip over the handle; handle = 5 psi, handle + 1 ring = 10 psi, all three pieces = 15 psi.

I suppose the 3-piece regulator is only useful IF you plan on pressure cooking (5 psi) or canning foodstuffs (usually 10 psi at elevations 1000 ft. or less) and don't want to or can't rely on the pressure gauge. Using as a sterilizer you want 15 psi, which in the big 1-piece that comes with the newer Preston.

I do all these with mine, and find it is way easier to listen to the jiggler rocking than constantly physically looking at the gauge. I used the gauge once and found it hard to get the heat setting on the stove correct in order to maintain constant and proper pressure when using the gauge.
Click to expand...

Ok, I gotcha. I didn't realize this was an option with the presto's. I just got mine a little over a year ago and it came with the one piece. I suppose it would be a good way to make sure the lower pressures were maintained properly.
 
mthompson said:
It is meant to replace the 1-piece regulator that comes with the Presto, either with or without the dial gauge. The 3-piece allows you to maintain pressure at three levels; 5, 10, and 15 psi . The three pieces are the handle, and two rings that slip over the handle; handle = 5 psi, handle + 1 ring = 10 psi, all three pieces = 15 psi.

I suppose the 3-piece regulator is only useful IF you plan on pressure cooking (5 psi) or canning foodstuffs (usually 10 psi at elevations 1000 ft. or less) and don't want to or can't rely on the pressure gauge. Using as a sterilizer you want 15 psi, which in the big 1-piece that comes with the newer Preston.

I do all these with mine, and find it is way easier to listen to the jiggler rocking than constantly physically looking at the gauge. I used the gauge once and found it hard to get the heat setting on the stove correct in order to maintain constant and proper pressure when using the gauge.
Click to expand...

Hi, sorry for dragging up an older thread, but I'm just about to press the "buy" button on the Presto canner and came upon this thread.

So to make sure I am understanding correctly - this 3-piece regulator is ONLY needed if you are doing foods that want a pressure less than 15 psi, is that correct? So the regulator weight that comes with the Presto is set for 15, and if all I'm doing is wort, I don't need this thing?

Just making sure I don't need any other parts while I've got my free shipping order going :) Thanks
 
ResumeMan said:
Hi, sorry for dragging up an older thread, but I'm just about to press the "buy" button on the Presto canner and came upon this thread.

So to make sure I am understanding correctly - this 3-piece regulator is ONLY needed if you are doing foods that want a pressure less than 15 psi, is that correct? So the regulator weight that comes with the Presto is set for 15, and if all I'm doing is wort, I don't need this thing?

Just making sure I don't need any other parts while I've got my free shipping order going :) Thanks
Click to expand...

Correct, the 1-piece regulator is weighted to rock (release steam) at 15psi. That's the pressure you want for sterilizing wort.

You can always get the 3-piece regulator at a later date if you want to can meats, soups, veggies, etc.

Best regards,

MT
 
Ahhh, google love. Thanks gents. So much good info. I was hoping I could waterbath can them but I won't risk it. Freezing for now...
 
I am not even freezing my caned wort, I just pour it in jars while it is worm, cap it and leave it on room temp to cold down.. temperature change does the rest.
 
No, I am not using pressure canner since it is 5 L (1.5 gal) so it takes too much time to can 8 L of wort which I usually make.

After boiling I pour hot wort in jars, let them cool and put them in fridge (temperature change will repress the lid so I know that they seal). When I want to make starter I pour wort in Erlenmeyer flask and boil it 5-10 minutes which should destroy botulism neurotoxin and most of other bacteria.

Reason why I go this route is because we dont have DME in my country and LME is pretty expensive (especially for starter purpose), so I always mash wort for my starter. It takes less time that if I would pressurize jars, and any risk of contamination is avoided with boiling wort prior to pitching.

Dan, hopefully I"m still alive, I am canning this way over a year and never noticed any strange symptom on myself, and wort so far smelled and looked fresh. I know that look and smell aren't warranty but botulism is not problem if you boil wort before pitching.
I am not saying that this is best way to do it, but so far haven't got any issues with it and I think it is safe as it is making starter w/DME (since wort is boiled prior to pitching).
 
DiS,

I agree that you are safe from botulism if you are boiling prior to use. Heat will destroy the endotoxins. If you do ever have a freshness problem, you could put the wort in plastic bags or containers and freeze it.

The greatest benefit to pressure canning in my brewing is the ability to open a jar of canned wort, pour it in my starter jug and pitch. No boiling/cooling required. That said, if I couldn't access a pressure canner, I would probably do what you are doing (except freezing).

Adam
 
Sure, I like plug-and-play approach but unfortunately I can place only 3 x 3 cup jars in my pressure canner, so it would take 4 steps to pressurize all jars. With the pressure this size I accepted the fact that I need additional step in order to do it right and that's simply the way it is.
I still use it for sterilization of equipment for yeast freezing, and so far I have no intention to buy bigger one.
 
Well the other key is that you're keeping them refrigerated, as I understand that not only does boiling kill the spores, refrigerator temp keeps them from growing in the first place. The main value-added to canning the wort is that it can safely be kept at room temperature, and then used w/o boiling; in that scenario using the pressurization is essential. But if you keep 'em in the fridge you are safe (even if the wort may not be at its best after an extended time).
 
I have an all-american autoclave I've used for slant/myco stuff in the past. It says it is not for food. All-American also makes the same model with w weighted top for food, and it is cheaper. Any idea why they don't recommend the one I have for food? You adjust the pressure by adjusting the power delivered. It's not too hard getting it to 15psi and stable for an hour. It's totally sealed so it forms a vacuum on cooling. I usually let it form a slight vacuum and then open the vent in the flow of a hepa hood. Not needed with mason jars I suppose. Still, why wouldn't one want to use a non-weighted version for food?
 

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