Phenols (medicinal / Bandaid) normal for a tripel with the 3787?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

DerBraumeister

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
80
Reaction score
4
Location
Central Europe
Hello

I am heavily disappointed by my last brew, a belgian Tripel with the Wyeast 3787. I bottled the beer two weeks ago and since I wanted to repitch the yeast, I opened a bottle last weekend and behold; Phenols. Medicinal, bandaid, disgusting. Needless to say, I threw away the yeast!

I have had this happening in a Kolsch and the phenols did not age out. But I wanted to ask if this could be normal for a young belgian Tripel. (I have picked up some phenols in commercial tripels btw.)

Here is the process:
-Total fermentetion volume of 6 gal.
-100% German Pilsener for a starting gravity of 1.065.
-Mash temp 149.
-I used tab water-our water supply is not chlorinated (they use ozon and there is not the slightest hint of chlorine in the smell of the water)
-I do not use sanitisers based on chlorine (I use Chemipro Oxi)
-Batch sparging.
-90 Min boil
-Irish moss
-No chill.
-1.5 quart real wort starter overnight with a fresh pack of 3787
-At high krausen, I added 25 gravity points of table sugar dissolved in boiling water to reach a theoretical OG of 1.080
-Ambient temperature of fermentation in my cellar: 67 F
-On the third day of primary fermentation I wrapped a sheet of sponge around the fermenter as an isolation to let the temp rise for proper attenuation.
-Bottled after 3 Weeks in primary (the fermentation was over after 2 weeks).
-Final gravity: 1.008.

When I added the sugar to the fermenter, I noticed some sulfur but no phenols to mention. When I bottled, the beer had a strong banana aroma.

So, what do you think?

Have I just produced 6 gallons of nail polish remover, or is this normal for a 9% abv belgian tripel, that has only been on bottle for a week?

Regards, Der Braumeister
 
Though I am not familiar with the particular yeast strain you used some phenolic character is definitely a part of many strong Belgian beers. It is not a part of Kölsch, however so I must assume that some part of your process is causing phenol production and if it's doing it to your Kölsch it is probably doing it to your Belgians as well. If the level of phenols was 'disgusting' the first thing I would look at is sanitation as this strongly suggests infection with a wild yeast strain carrying the POF (phenolic off flavor) gene. Some of the Belgian strains carry this gene (as does Bavarian wheat beer yeast) but none of them should produce phenolics at the 'disgusting' level.

Obviously the thing to do is let it age. New beer stinks for a time. If it doesn't dissipate with time then I'd start with sanitation.
 
I agree with the infection assessment. No-chill brewing is a risky proposition for just this reason.
 
I use that yeast a lot and have never gotten those flavors. I'd say you either have chlorine issues or an infection.
 
I use that yeast a lot and have never gotten those flavors. I'd say you either have chlorine issues or an infection.

I also use it alot and don't get those flavors.

Have I just produced 6 gallons of nail polish remover, or is this normal for a 9% abv belgian tripel, that has only been on bottle for a week?

For a 9% tripel you really should give it more time than one week. Let it sit for a few more weeks and taste one. Nothing about your ferment temp makes me think that you created fusels. If it does not mellow in a few more weeks, it could be an infection or chlorine issues.
 
Most likely not an infection, especially if you are careful and sanitary in your process. Look at the water. I bet somewhere in your process you introduce cloramines via water source. Make sure that you use water that is filtered or that is free of chlorine from start to finish. I have discovered that even small sources can cause bandaid beer, especially with strains that are prone to have the POF gene. Even as much as rinsing your carboy bottles out with tap water has caused it in my experience. More bad news too, Phenols never go away!!
 
One week is nowhere near enough time to evaluate this beer

Oxi is NOT a sanitizer!

Infection is highly possible if that's what you thought you sanitized with:(
 
Also, if you got any oxyclean in your beer, that's likely the source of any phenols as well- but yes, oxyclean is definitely not a sanitizer. Also, at 1 week in bottles you're probably also experiencing a ton of alcohol heat. Nothing you can do at this point but to let it ride- see where it is in a couple months.
 
From the Brupaks website:

"Chemipro OXI is intended for cleaning and sterilising all brewing equipment in an effective and environmentally friendly manner with no rinsing required!"

From the description it's obviously sodium percarbonate which is widely used as a bleach (in laundry perparations, for example). But percarbonate is simply an adduct of hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate with the former commonly used as a disinfectant.

So I'm wondering about the basis for the statement that percarb is not an effective sanitizer largely because I've often thought about using it. It breaks down into water and sodium carbonate both of which are pretty innocuous, doesn't contain detergent, wont leave iodine stains etc. If it worked it would be pretty handy stuff.
 
From the Brupaks website:

"Chemipro OXI is intended for cleaning and sterilising all brewing equipment in an effective and environmentally friendly manner with no rinsing required!"

From the description it's obviously sodium percarbonate which is widely used as a bleach (in laundry perparations, for example). But percarbonate is simply an adduct of hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate with the former commonly used as a disinfectant.

So I'm wondering about the basis for the statement that percarb is not an effective sanitizer largely because I've often thought about using it. It breaks down into water and sodium carbonate both of which are pretty innocuous, doesn't contain detergent, wont leave iodine stains etc. If it worked it would be pretty handy stuff.

I'm glad somebody actually READ OP's post. Clearly I can't count myself in that group. Prior statements re: oxyclean retracted.

I stand by the bit about giving it some time, though. Should help.
 
Thanks for all the replies.

I know that the beer is still way to young to judge it. But those phenols really raised my alarm, and like has been mentioned, they never seem to go away. Once you learn how to spot them, even the slightest amount renders the beer undrinkable.

But provided that the chemipro oxi my LHS sold me as a sanitiser seems to be inadequate for the job, it all seems to point to insufficient sanitation.

I will double check with my water company. But I guess I should be having this problem more regularly if the tab water was the culprit.

I fill the wort into the primary while it is still almost 200 F, so I was never really concerned about sanitation of my primary (a plastic bucket without a spigot).

But I use the chemipro Oxi for the sanitation of both the bottling equipment and the bottles. I really would not have thought that a 9% ABV beer was that prone to infection.

I also have a sanitiser based on didecyldimethylammonium chloride. I guess I will start using it for all my equipment and rinsing with boiled water.

Thanks for the replies
 
So, while I was writing my last answer (twice, I accidentally closed the tab!) some new info on chemipro oxi has come to light.

So is it ok or not?

(Starsan is unfortunately unavailable in Europe!)

Regards
 
Prior statements re: oxyclean retracted.

Not trying to bully you into a retraction - just trying to find out if the product is perhaps less effective than its advertising claims. As infection is a strong possibility here that does have direct bearing on the question. The fact that hospitals slop peroxide on their floors doesn't necessarily mean that OXI will kill pediococcus. I'd love to see some log kill vs CxT data on it compared to bleach, iodophor, StarSan etc.
 
Not trying to bully you into a retraction - just trying to find out if the product is perhaps less effective than its advertising claims.

No bullying, I just don't have any data- I had read other posts and was under the impression that OP was using oxyclean brand detergent to sanitize with- not exactly SOP.

I'm not familiar with Chemipro, and although they both have the same active ingredient, there are other factors which can influence whether or not you can use one as a sanitizer. If Chemipro is advertised as a sanitizer, I'm willing to bet it works just fine as one. Sanitation can probably be ruled out as one of OP's problems, IMO. Doesn't the FDA or DOH certify sanitizers? I believe One-Step was downgraded from sanitizer to cleanser and I believe that is also a percarbonate. I think that has more to do with teh cost of getting certified rather than efficacy, though. More info is needed though.

I'd love to see some log kill vs CxT data on it compared to bleach, iodophor, StarSan etc.
Definitely.
 
i think a 1.5L real wort starter is severely underpitching a 1.080 beer, and that could definitely cause some stressed yeast.

I'm not a fan of no-chill, but I know that others have used it with good results. I just wonder if that could be part of the issue- the huge underpitch, combined with sitting out unpitched for a day or more.

The ambient of 67 degrees is a pretty high temperature to start with as well. I am thinking that these three things are the biggest part of the off-flavor.

You don't say what/when the temperature rise occurred, and that could come into play here as well.
 
I missed the no chill part. After reading that I think that may be the problem.

I do not think it was underpitched because the OP stated that the OG was 1.065 and then added sugar after fermentation reached high krausen to get to 1.080. I do that a lot with my Belgians. Pitching a 1.5 L starter into a 1.065 wort is OK. That alone will not produce those type of flavors with that yeast.

I have used 3787 a lot ( it is my favorite Belgian yeast) and 67 ambient is OK if he did not pitch it into a very warm wort and let it out of control too fast. 3787 is fine at those temps. It all depends on how fast the temp was allowed to rise.
 
I know this is an old thread but i was looking for an answer for an identical problem.
I am getting tired of throwing away beer due to bandaid flavors.
This time, ocurred with the 3787 on a Dubbel 1.065. Never crossed my mind that it could happen on such a brew.

I have had bandaid flavors (horrible, threw away the beer) on wheat beers and Kolsh beers.
I mainly use WY3068 for wheat beers. I have made 1 successfull and 3 goners.
They all shared the same practices , Kolsh also and many other brews that DID NOT showed these off flavors. This is the first time that 3787 gives me this bad flavor. I used it 2 times before with success.

So:
- same water (tab water, not chloramine present, i tested it)
- same cleaning procedures (using ChemiPro Oxi and Starsan)
- different mash schedules of course and different temps fermenting

For the Dubbel i made with off flavors
- 2L starter with 2 packs of WY3787 (took 3 days to took off, they were old !)
- Started fermenting at 18C, rised naturally to 22C and hold there for 3 weeks
- FG = 1.007 last time i checked

So i am guessing the bandaid has to be stressed yeast. If it is, its due to old yeast and bad transport conditions. I dont have liquid yeast locally available. I have to order them from Belgium and wait 1 week for it to arrive ! If the yeast goes stressed in the pack, i am done. Cannot save it. Or can I ?

My main question is, i am sick of throwing away good beer (minus the bandaid flavor).
How can i "know" that a yeast is BAD before i pitch ? Taste the starter ?

Cheers
 
Yes. If the yeast is throwing phenols then you should be able to taste them in the starter. Also, keep in mind that the yeast strains used to ferment Belgian beers are known to produce phenols as is 3768 but not chlorphenols. These are the ones with the bandaid/plastic odors. The phenols the yeast strains are supposed to produce come, in the case of 3068, from ferulic acid - not chloramine. So the fact that you have beer that smells like a bandaid rather than like vinyl guaiacol suggests chlorine is sneaking in there somehow. The fact that you had one success with this yeast suggests that. To be absolutely sure there is no chlorine sneaking in you could try adding a campden tablet to the HLT. This will kill any chlorine or chloramine from the water or residual cleaner etc. in HLT and mash tun.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you may be hypersensitive to chlorphenolics or phenols in general. There is a reknowned brewpub in Chambly, PQ. They specialize in Belgian type beers and I can't go near the place. Even their 'pilsner' is harshly phenolic to me. Clearly I am hypersensitive (but I love the clove in wheat beer).
 
Yes. If the yeast is throwing phenols then you should be able to taste them in the starter. Also, keep in mind that the yeast strains used to ferment Belgian beers are known to produce phenols as is 3768 but not chlorphenols. These are the ones with the bandaid/plastic odors. The phenols the yeast strains are supposed to produce come, in the case of 3068, from ferulic acid - not chloramine. So the fact that you have beer that smells like a bandaid rather than like vinyl guaiacol suggests chlorine is sneaking in there somehow. The fact that you had one success with this yeast suggests that. To be absolutely sure there is no chlorine sneaking in you could try adding a campden tablet to the HLT. This will kill any chlorine or chloramine from the water or residual cleaner etc. in HLT and mash tun.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you may be hypersensitive to chlorphenolics or phenols in general. There is a reknowned brewpub in Chambly, PQ. They specialize in Belgian type beers and I can't go near the place. Even their 'pilsner' is harshly phenolic to me. Clearly I am hypersensitive (but I love the clove in wheat beer).

Hey i guess i am learning the hard way that i am sensitive to chlorphenols too.
Even today i could swear the wine i had at lunch had some kind of weird smell that reminded me of the bandaid from my current Dubbel.

It is not the first time i have to dump a batch due to this.
It happened to a Kolsh, 2 wheat beers made from 3068 and now this 3787.
I can say that i do not believe that my water has chloramines (but i have been wrong before) and also that i DID NOT use a campden tablet in this batch.
BUT...i did use a campden tablet on both batches of 3068 that turned out BAD.
So i believe it is not a water related problem...or if it is....its much worse that i had thought :

- Even with the campden tablet in the HLT and MASH i get enough chloramines in the fermenter, by simply rinsing it with tap water. The residual water is enough to do this ???? I would have thought that 23L of chloramined water would logically do the trick....but something like 10ml of rinsed water??
 
Also another tought....if it is water source related...how come the current batch its fermenting with Fermentis 34/70 Lager strain does NOT show ANY signs of bandaid ? In fact it IS delicious smell and taste.

Fermented side by side, made 3 days apart in same mash tun, same water source....different YEASTS !

So again...i am thinking Stressed Yeast....
 
I'm not trying to sell any one of the theories in particular. They all seem reasonable. It is probably not the water but the campden tablet protects against the small probabilty that it is.

Yeas stress? Possible and the fact that it happens sometimes and not others with the same yeast suggests that this might be the case. But the liquid yeasts are pretty durable. Is there a seasonal factor? What I am thinking is that if the yeast are stressed in transport it is more likely to happen in the summer than the winter. But you should see signs of yeast stress in the starter - it doesn't start to ferment for a long time, the fermentation isn't vigorous, the starter smells/tastes funny.

You can try to relieve yeast stress by giving them some nutrient (DAP + zinc - several people make yeast nutrients) and plenty of oxygen when you make the starter.

Another idea is that you have in your environs a wild strain of yeast that is getting into your beer - sometimes. Try to work in a dust free area. Keep windows closed. Don't expose the beer to the room once it has cooled etc. No guarantees here either. Just throwing out ideas.
 
Yeas stress? Possible and the fact that it happens sometimes and not others with the same yeast suggests that this might be the case. But the liquid yeasts are pretty durable. Is there a seasonal factor? What I am thinking is that if the yeast are stressed in transport it is more likely to happen in the summer than the winter. But you should see signs of yeast stress in the starter - it doesn't start to ferment for a long time, the fermentation isn't vigorous, the starter smells/tastes funny.

Another idea is that you have in your environs a wild strain of yeast that is getting into your beer - sometimes.

OK. Now these 2 make A LOT OF SENSE .
What i would love to discover however, is which one is the TRUE one, so i can avoid it.

1. I can say that in fact i can identify all those bandaid cases, to Yeast purchased during summer times. They spend at least 1 week in transit (i cannot get local liquid yeast here... :( ).
In this particular 3787 case, i got 3 days LAG time in a 2L starter and i even throwed 2 packs of 3787!
I did not LOVE the smell of the starter (did not taste it) but...hey...its what i had !!

2. Wild yeast strain in the house. I can say that i HAVE thought a lot in this. Thing is, i only have 1 free space in my house to place the fermenters : my bathroom. I try to keep it tidy and clean, but it is a bathroom and people do use it AS A BATHROOM.
I usually try to NOT use that bathroom for 24h prior to a brewday, but do not know if this is influencing the fermentation or not. Maybe this is the reason i am getting "shitty beer" sometimes.

I know i can try and improve the cleaning in the bathroom, although i got more than 20 successfull batches already.

What i would like to know, is how i can improve point number 1 : yeast stress.
Can i still recover from a liquid yeast that has been exposed to heat in transit during 1 week in summer? Should i offer it a very low OG wort in a small starter (100ml ) and grow from there, to salvage it from stress ?
 
Interesting that it occurs in summer. This would increase both risks. Heat in transit may be stressing the yeast. Warm weather may be increasing the presence of the hypothesized contaminating organism.

With respect to the yeast: you can try contacting the shipper and asking him to ship by air (overnight) in an insulated container with cold packs. This is, obviously, going to cost you a bundle, your supplier may not offer the packing I described and I don't know what implications there may be regarding customs clearances. Once you have the yeast make the starter with moderate strength wort, include yeast nutrient in the wort and oxygenate well, preferably with oxygen rather than air.

As to the bathroom: I would think it more likely the hypothesized organism is coming in through the window than out of you. The weather correlation would suggest this. So keeping the window closed when wort is around would be a good idea though this may conflict with use of the room as a loo.
 
Yes the "weird" flavors occurred from yeast bought in the summer, But not from beer made in the summer.
I purchased these 2x packs of 3787 back in September 2017 and kept them in the fridge until brewday (1st February 2018) so it was pretty cold winter on brewday.

So i got "bandaid beer" 3x times in Summer times, and 1 time winter.
Another "common" aspect is 4 out of 4 bandaids used Liquid Yeast.
I probably have 30 batches of brewdays, maybe 15 liquid and 15 dry yeast.
Never a dry yeast offered me bandaid flavors. But hey....luck ?

I will try to "revive" an old slurry of 3787 i keep in my freezer at 2ºC. This is almost 2 years old, but it did make a spetacular Dubbel back then !!!
Maybe i can make a small experiment, making 2 small batches of beer, one with the old 3787 , another with the current slurry from this bandaid dubbel, and another with a simple new dry yeast !!

This should help to identify causes...... or NOT !
 
Back
Top