Force carbing at serving pressure

First, I am newish to kegging (put my 3rd keg in the fridge this afternoon).

Second, yes, I searched the forums for a while and didn't find any discussion regarding a method of force carbing I want to try tomorrow.

And C, I am impatient. Also, I've had inconsistent results with setting to 30psi and shaking (overcarbed a beer big time, but it was a crappy, under-attenuated wheat that I gunned into some bottles and stuffed in the basement where they're serving time-out for being bad).

What if I set the regulator to 12psi (which is a balanced carbing/serving pressure the way I'm set up) and shook a cold keg until the regulator stops hissing? Theoretically, would this produce a beer carbed to 12psi quickly? The agitation will force the CO2 into solution and when the regulator stops, wouldn't it mean the solution has absorbed all it's going to and I am at equalibrium?

Just a thought... I am sure there's something I am not considering.

yes, this will work, provided your keg of beer is at serving temps.

As long as the beer is cold that should work.

Agitating beer makes beer gods angry and also congeals foam-positive proteins. Once they are spent, they are no longer available for a nice head on your beer. You probably know this and don't care.

944play said:

Agitating beer makes beer gods angry and also congeals foam-positive proteins. Once they are spent, they are no longer available for a nice head on your beer. You probably know this and don't care.

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I never even heard this one until you mentioned it the other day on a different thread, but I'm going to call "boogeyman" on it. I've done the shaking thing on a couple of kegs recently and the head and head retention are just fine on those beers.

944play said:

Agitating beer makes beer gods angry and also congeals foam-positive proteins. Once they are spent, they are no longer available for a nice head on your beer. You probably know this and don't care.

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Hmm... I've never heard that, actually. I had decent head formation/retention on the first batch I agitated.

Anyhow, if this method works and gets beer carbed correctly and quickly... is this common practice? I mean, unless you're SO lazy you can't manage to shake a keg for a bit and would rather wait a week or more, wouldn't this be the way to go?

Walker said:

I never even heard this one until you mentioned it the other day on a different thread, but I'm going to call "boogeyman" on it.

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Yeah, it's probably not a big worry unless you're doing intensive QC on a production scale.

When I have a free keg, I'll split a batch and do a side-by-side. I know that when I emptied a gravity minikeg of Spaten into a corny, the beer tasted great but wouldn't keep a cap of foam. Not the same thing exactly, but....

I'll keep thinking that shaking beer is bad practice until I can prove/be proven that it isn't.

Edit, for a bit of a citation:
http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17193
And this one:

I agree that if you mash carefully, and transfer & package your beer gently without foaming the product, then you won't need anything else. Remember that beer generally foams only once. The proteins responsible for a creamy head are denatured once they foam and will not be available to form a head again.

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You won't have to guess which pour came from the keg that got agitated.

The thing is, the head didn't even form, so it's not so much an issue of retention.

Now that is interesting. I went with a hybrid method. I shook (side to side, not rolling it around) at 11psi for about a minute and a half and that was 4 or 5 days ago. I haven't touched it since and I plan on tapping it tonight. I'll send a pic. It's BM's Centennial Blonde.

P.S. In brewpubs, where they probably don't have a lot of space and need to move product (I am totally postulating on that) do they force carb or let kegs sit on gas to carbonate with time?

944play: how did you get the one on the left to force-carb in just one week anyway?

It's probably very rare practice for a pro brewer to force carb in a keg. Similarly, it's rare for me to force carb in a liter bottle. It's preferable to batch carb naturally or with a stone:
http://www.meheen-mfg.com/tankcarb.html

IDK what you mean, Walker. This batch was kegged May 22.

944play said:

IDK what you mean, Walker. This batch was kegged May 22.

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Ah, my bad... Based on the comment you made last week (below), I thought you were going to try this on a new batch of beer in the future.

944play said:

When I have a free keg, I'll split a batch and do a side-by-side.

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kicking this again, because I wanted to continue the discussion/debate about "shaking the keg destroys the head". I wanted to post this earlier, but I was on a boat in canada for a week and wasn't able to get on the forum to upload a pic.

This is a pint I pulled from a keg that I shook the ever-loving **** out of for three days in order to have it carbed up in time for a gathering at my house. I don't have a side by side of this vs the same beer not shaken, but I don't think it's necessary.

This was taken about 5 to 10 minutes after I poured the pint and had been drinking it.

This might be a "your mileage may vary" issue since 944play got no head formation on his shaken keg, but I got good head, good retention, and even pretty good lacing.

Interesting... looks friggin delicious! One question, obvious given the thread topic:

Did you shake it at serving/balance pressure or something higher like 30psi?

Anybody ever try 30psi for two days cold, drop to 12psi and serve. It seems to work well with the beer, however doesn't work with the Apfelwein. I would post a pic but I'm embarrassed about the clarity. Pale ale looks like a Wit.

So how long does it normally take to force carb a beer say a pale ale or IPA cold at 12-13psi? I have heard a week and other times I have heard much longer?

crlova2 said:

So how long does it normally take to force carb a beer say a pale ale or IPA cold at 12-13psi? I have heard a week and other times I have heard much longer?

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A week to 10 days from my experience. But the whole reason I started this thread was to see if it could be done faster without the risk of over-carbing with a 30psi shaking routine. When I shook at 30 psi it was a friggin nightmare... and I didn't shake it for more than a minute or so and I let it sit overnight at serving pressure thereafter. It was still super foamy and overcarb'd.

Little bit of confusing terminology here.

Force carbing is a general term for using compressed CO2 to carbonate (as opposed to naturally carbing by refermenting in the keg).

I've been trying to coin the terms "rush carbing" or "boost carbing" to represent accelerated force carbing via elevated pressure, shaking, or both.

This is the opposite of "set and forget" which leaves pressures at the level by which equilibrium will eventually occur after 2-3 weeks. No shaking or elevated pressures. I don't have any definitive data to back this up, but shaking a couple times a day at chart pressure should get you there in about 3 days.

Bobby_M said:

This is the opposite of "set and forget" which leaves pressures at the level by which equilibrium will eventually occur after 2-3 weeks. No shaking or elevated pressures. I don't have any definitive data to back this up, but shaking a couple times a day at chart pressure should get you there in about 3 days.

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That's the answer I was looking for...

The scientist in me wants those data, though. Anyone more motivated than I want to take this task up?

Bumping for a question:

I have two kegs that are well conditioned and cold (about 40F). I was trying to carb them "set and forget" style as this is how I've always done it. I just came back from a two week trip visiting family in North Cali for the holidays and my CO2 tank ran out while I was gone. I poured out a little sample of each brew into a glass and they're both flat as hell. I have guests coming over tonight and I am not afraid of the head-destruction goblin that 944play warns of.

In a few moments I'm going to go pick up a new CO2 tank, and I want to come home and set the kegs to 12psi (my carb/serving pressure) and gently rock them on my legs for a while, then put back in the fridge the rest of the day to sit still.

Question: I know I should do this until I hear the tank stop hissing, but anybody got any idea how long this takes at such low pressures? 5 min? 30 min?

You'll have to rock them quite a bit if you're only at 12 psi, at least 5-10 min and I don't know if you'll be able to fully carbonate them fast at the low pressure. Instead I would set the regulator to 30 psi and then shake the heck out of them for a few minutes. Then set it back to 12 psi and let it sit for a few hours to settle out. I've done that with moderate success when I'm in a bind like you are.

periwinkle1239 said:

You'll have to rock them quite a bit if you're only at 12 psi, at least 5-10 min and I don't know if you'll be able to fully carbonate them fast at the low pressure. Instead I would set the regulator to 30 psi and then shake the heck out of them for a few minutes. Then set it back to 12 psi and let it sit for a few hours to settle out. I've done that with moderate success when I'm in a bind like you are.

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Not going to do it that way. I have friends who keg that way and their beers almost always have ****ty carbonation, thus I don't trust myself to not also over-or-under carb it.

I'll do it at 12, maybe 15 to speed it up, for as long as it takes.

jotakah said:

Not going to do it that way. I have friends who keg that way and their beers almost always have ****ty carbonation, thus I don't trust myself to not also over-or-under carb it.

I'll do it at 12, maybe 15 to speed it up, for as long as it takes.

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Good luck, you can always call tell your friends it's a cask if it's not fully carbonated!

PS - I've tried doing it at around 15 psi. You'll have to shake for awhile (it'll get tiring) and you'll have to shake it rigorous - if you don't hear the keg sizzling then you aren't shaking hard enough and the beer is probably not carbonating. Just giving you my thoughts...