Heavily Researched Fat Tire Clone Grain Bill/hop Schedule what yeast?

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permo

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I have been researching a fat tire clone for a few months now, I have read many articles and many quotes and interviews from supposed New Belgium brewmasters. They say they use a clean american yeast, but I don't think they do...there is a taste there, an earthiness of some sort that is not malt related, it is yeast or hops...regardless.

I can say that fat tire is a fantastic session beer, not to assertive, but still keeps you coming back for more..bread crust, earthiness, biscuit, light noble hop/citrus aroma....medium carbonation...just a nice all round beer.


Here is what I have came up with for a grain bill and hop schedule for a 6 gallon batch.


10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 80.00 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.00 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4.00 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 4.00 %
0.50 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 4.00 %
0.25 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 2.00 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.00 %
1.00 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 16.0 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (1 min) Hops 0.3 IBU
Mash at 154 for 60


Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.42 %
Bitterness: 16.4 IBU Calories: 235 cal/pint




So the question remains....what to use for yeast? A search of clone kits available on the internet shows a fifty/fifty split between neutral yeast strains and belgian strains......food for thought.

The adventerous brewer part of me says use the Chimay strain and ferment cool...........ramping up temps at the end.

Another part of me says use nottingham or US-05 and ferment on the lower end.

thoughts?
 
Wyeast released their actual strain a year or two back as a seasonal ( http://www.wyeastlab.com/VSS4q2007.cfm ). Sadly they don't really give the strain much description. IIRC it was originally the Chimay strain years back, but obviously it has become more neutral since then. Maybe a blend of Chimay (500/1214) and a clean American yeast (001/1056)?
 
I would highly recommend using the current Wyeast private collection yeast 3655-PC Belgian Schelde Ale. It is cleaner than most belgian yeasts and will work very well in a fat tire clone. I think it is the De Konnink strain, which some claim is the inspiration for fat tire. I have used this strain and the white labs strain wlp-515 with success in amber ales and belgian pale ales.
 
Wyeast released their actual strain a year or two back as a seasonal ( http://www.wyeastlab.com/VSS4q2007.cfm ). Sadly they don't really give the strain much description. IIRC it was originally the Chimay strain years back, but obviously it has become more neutral since then. Maybe a blend of Chimay (500/1214) and a clean American yeast (001/1056)?

Interesting! I wonder if I might try and blend a little US-05 and Chimay. A little of that chimay yeast flavor might be very nice in there.
 
The adventerous brewer part of me says use the Chimay strain and ferment cool...........ramping up temps at the end.

Another part of me says use nottingham or US-05 and ferment on the lower end.

thoughts?

That's my thought regarding the Chimay strain too... It's supposed to give earthy characteristics at the lower end of its range. It's also what led me to use T-58 on my 2-below clone that is currently aging. I let it ferment at 61, versus the mid-70s that most folks let it go, hoping for similair earthy charactersistics. I just bottled it last week, so I'll need another 2 weeks before I could let you know how this experiment went.

Also, I tried a Fat Tire Clone kit before (Midwest's, I think) and used US05 (I think it came another yeast, but used US05). It was only my 4th ever brew and I still had some temp control issues. It tasted nothing like fat tire, and my too hgh fermentation resulted in some off flavors.

However, I think if you brew your recipe with US05 at the lowest possible temp (I think 59) you will be able to really tell how much you're missing of that elusive "Fat Tire/New Belgium" flavor, since you'll be getting minimal yeast flavor in the brew. This will allow you to really asses your recipe and decied if you should use another yeast the next time. Then again, if you can wait 2 more weeks, I can report back on my T58 expirment.
 
You could split the beer into two batches. Use the Chimay in one and the US05 in the other and see which one you like best. Then you could brew the one you choose and have 6 gallons of it the second time around.

WW
 
This is a crazy thread for sure. Obviously some of the fat tire magic, if not a good portion of it, is from the yeast. It is obviously of belgian heritage, but fermented cooler to subdue the flavors. I also found a webdoc that quoted the brewmaster saying go heavy with light caramel malts, and go for 16 IBU. I really think I might use chimay at 64 degrees and see what happens.
 
OK, this weekend I had a revelation. I tried a six pack of Boulder Brewings Flashback India Brown Ale. Upon the first sip, I knew it was different. It had that biscuit, roasty, earthy taste that fat tire has. Now this makes me think.

1. The specialty malts listed are chocolate and biscuit. I have used both of these extensively and never got a taste like that, I have used them in varying combinations and by themselves..

2. Boulder brewing is from colorado, maybe they borrowed some yeast from new belgium for this one....
 
Interesting theory permo, maybe you should contact Boulder Brewings and see if you can get some suggestions from them.. maybe they'll reveal the part of the secret that New Belgium was not forthcoming with...
 
I am brewing this up today...I have ruled out the belgian yeast strain. It is now between these two heavy weights of the brewing world:

Nottinham Dry Ale Yeast
Rogue Pacman washed yeast slurry


thoughts?
 
use a clean american ale yeast. Fat tire yeast is as clean of an american ale yeast and is very versatile. I had the opportunity to use the fat tire ale yeast in 50+ of my homebrews, lived with the son for 2 years, and you can use it for anything. Pales, wheats, ambers, everything. It is not the yeast that that biscuity flavor comes from, but rather the perfect combination of malts. Also Fat Tire is a blended beer. It is not brewed in single batches. The flavor is contributed to the blending of multiple batches before going to packaging to maintain consistent flavor. They have the most elaborate quality control division I have ever heard of. Personally, California ale or american ale yeast will be perfect.

To clarify, Fat Tire yeast is a house yeast, but so are the other like 5 they have. The chimay story is about their beer called Abbey. Fat Tire was not their first beer, just the easiest to market.
 
I went with pacman yeast, got about %80 efficiency so my OG is a little high at 1.056...but it should be a tasty brew. I am going to ferment low and long.
 
Curious how it turns out. 8% xtal seems high to me. I also don't taste any special B. Biscuit for sure.

Special B may or may not be in their grist, I have found about a 50/50 split saying it is or isn't. Same with cystal 120.....I decided to go with the special B. The brewmaster himself stated to use a very high percentage of light crystal or munich, up to %30. If anything I don't think I have enough..but we shall see. I am also thinking next time, if this doesn't turn out right, I will use biscuit, victory, special,aromatic,chocolate and crystal 120 in addition to high percentages of light crystal and munich. My thoughts are that the one I have going now is going to be great though....I should also note that I added about 2 oz of chocolate malt during the last 10 minutes of the mash.


quote from NB's Bouckaert:

"When trying to emulate Fat Tire Amber Ale, Bouckaert advises that you pay particular attention to the malt bill and the aging process. "We have a malt character that asks for a lot of light-colored malts," he says. "Specialty, Munich and light caramel malts comprise up to 30 percent. For the signature toasted biscuit flavor of this brown-amber beer, add from 5 to 10 percent of malts with a nutty character." For hops, he recommends shooting for 16 IBUs with a subtle late addition of aroma or dry hops. "Don't use Cascade or other overpowering hops," Bouckaert adds. "



I should also note that I added about 2 oz of chocolate malt during the last 10 minutes of the mash.
 
update:

mashed at 154, hit OG of 1.056..just a little high but still perfectly within range. I used washed rogue pacman yeast from a %10 ABV 100 IBU IIPA. After about a 5 days at 62 degrees the brew hit terminal gravity at 1.013 and now it is just sitting on the primary cake clearing up and waiting to be bottled.

It appears as if this yeast was certainly no worse for the wear after the IIPA, some say you should not reuse yeast from high gravity high IBU beers.....
 
How did the sample taste?

REALLY good. I think this is going to be very close to fat tire, it did have the biscuity fat tire flavor I was going for...I think it is a result of biscuit, munich and chocolate malts...with all crystal in the background.
 
REALLY good. I think this is going to be very close to fat tire, it did have the biscuity fat tire flavor I was going for...I think it is a result of biscuit, munich and chocolate malts...with all crystal in the background.

sounds like a crowd pleaser, nice goin permo :)

:off: I'm way impressed at your pacman working like a champ after such a big beer. Thats cool!
 
sounds like a crowd pleaser, nice goin permo :)

:off: I'm way impressed at your pacman working like a champ after such a big beer. Thats cool!

Pacman just keeps impressing me. No rest for the wicked, this yeast cake is going to get an imperial stout!
 
just an update, I bottled this yesterday and the beer tastes fantastic, I think it is going to be pretty much spot on for fat tire, but I won't be able to tell %100 until in carbs up.

On another note, it finished at 1.011.....that pacman yeast is some amazing stuff.
 
I am currently drinking this beer, it is awesome! It is VERY close to fat tire, the only problem I have with it is that the toasty flavor is there, but a little on the subdued side and the caramel malts are just a little over the top. So I have modified the recipe and I think this will nail it for next time, I think the key is the pale chocolate malt, the IBU at 16 is spot on:


10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row)
0.50 lb Pale Chocolate Malt
0.25 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt
0.25 lb Munich Malt
0.25 lb Biscuit Malt
0.25 lb Aromatic

1.00 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 16.0 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (1 min) Hops 0.3 IBU
Mash at 154 for 60


I know this is a complicated grain bill.....but it is going to be really good. Neutral Yeast is definetly part of it. I will use pacman again


Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.42 %
Bitterness: 16.4 IBU Calories: 235 cal/pint
 
What Crystals/Caramels do you use in this bill?

I am sorry, equal parts C20 and C40. I had another one of these beers last night, and they just keep getting better. I think a long cold, almost lager like, storage period really helps this beer.
 
Just took my first pull off this keg tonight - wow, it tastes great! I have one can of Fat Tire left from my trip to Colorado in May, I'm going to do a three-way taste test this weekend with my brother and a buddy of mine. We'll see how close I got it.
FWIW, even if its not spot on, this is a terrific beer, definitely one I'll be brewing up again.
 
Just took my first pull off this keg tonight - wow, it tastes great! I have one can of Fat Tire left from my trip to Colorado in May, I'm going to do a three-way taste test this weekend with my brother and a buddy of mine. We'll see how close I got it.
FWIW, even if its not spot on, this is a terrific beer, definitely one I'll be brewing up again.

You know it!! I have been tweaking it a little since I posted it, but the bulk of the recipe remains the same, and delicious!
 
OK, the verdict is in. Did the taste test with six different people. Cups 1 and 3 were my clone, cup 2 was actual Fat Tire. I had to put them into dark cups because my clone is definitely darker than the original. But the results were good - quality scientific data. The subjects were only told here are some beers, rank them according to your taste. One person liked the Fat Tire the best, but everyone else put it third. Nobody chose Fat Tire in second place, meaning that cups 1 and 3 were always next to each other (nobody said I like 1 but not 3 for example).

The one I brewed up is damn good, a bit maltier, toastier and biscuity than the original. Home run recipe permo.

Edit - I used your second updated recipe.
 
Wow, you outbrewed New Belgium...good job. I was wondering, I am an extract brewer and use specialty grain. If I were to just convert to 10lb of pale 2-row into dme, how many lbs would it be?
 
The one I brewed up is damn good, a bit maltier, toastier and biscuity than the original. Home run recipe permo.

Thanks Man! I am not lying, this makes a heckuva beer!


I wonder if we knocked the pail choc down to .25 we would be even closer....

My last one I used just a touch of pale chocolate and an ounce of black patent, and it was very, very good.
 
Wow, you outbrewed New Belgium...good job. I was wondering, I am an extract brewer and use specialty grain. If I were to just convert to 10lb of pale 2-row into dme, how many lbs would it be?

I would probably go with 7 pound DME or so, whatever gets you up to about 1.055 in your system.

Also, you may want to up the specialty grains a little for a steep, because steeping contributes a little less color and flavor than the full 60 minute mash.
 
I'll let you all in on my latest evil plan - I am calling it brown bastard, but this brew is going to be a strong, americanized brown ale, with a grain bill similar to my fat tire clone, I have been working on the grain bill for this batch, by batch for a few months now and I have finalized this as my favorite one, I will be hoping this up to 32 IBU with my bittering addition with magnum, and finishing with willamete.....If you like fat tire, or my clone, this will be a similar beer, just more aggressive. Maybe, imperial fat tire.

Briess 2-Row Brewer's Malt 13 lb
Crisp Chocolate Malt 0.25 lb
Simpsons Extra Dark Crystal 0.25 lb
Simpsons Dark Crystal 0.25 lb
Simpsons Medium Crystal 0.25 lb
Crisp Pale Chocolate Malt 0.25 lb
Briess Victory 0.25 lb
Briess 2 Row Caramel 10 0.25 lb
Caramel Munich 0.25 lb
1.5 oz magnum at 60
2 oz willamete at FO

Og = 1.070 or so
Mash overnight at 151
Pacman Yeast
Shooting for 1.015 or less FG
32 IBU or so
I am going to keg this , and lager it for a month or two....mmmmmmm
 
Looks great! I can't wait to brew these beers. At what temp did you ferment the Fat Tire clone? Would it be the same temp for the brown bastard?
 
Fat tire clone I ferment fairly cool 60-65 degrees with Pacman yeast, but notty, US-05, WLP001 etc.etc..would be fine choices.

The brown bastard I am using bells yeast, it is currently bubbling away at 73 degrees. I want some yeast esters in this beer. I changed my hop schedule in the brown bastard...kicked it up a few notches. It is more of an IBA or over hopped american brown ale. It is going to be awesome. I ended up OG = 1064, and after 4 days I am at 1.024...I am hoping for 1.015 as my FG..we shall see. Anything under 1.020 should work though.

1 oz magnum at 60
1 oz centennial at 20
1 oz cascade at 15
1 oz centennial at 10
1 oz cascade at 5
1 oz centennial at FO
Going to dry hop as well


Also, I have finalized my latest and greatest fat tire clone....16 IBU is key..as is 1.050 to 1.055 OG. Pacman for sure.


here is the updated recipe:

8# two row
1# munich
12 oz c10
12oz c20
4 oz biscuit
4 oz pale chocolate malt
1 oz black malt
16 IBU magnum at 60
1 oz willamete, perle, saaz...etc..etc...at FO. Whatever you like.
 
Alright boys, my latest incarnation of the fat tire inspired American Amber Ale......this beer is currently overnight mashing as I type this.....it is going to be outstanding:

8.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 72.33 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 9.04 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 6.78 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 6.78 %
0.25 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 2.26 %
0.25 lb Pale Chocolate Malt (200.0 SRM) Grain 2.26 %
0.06 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 0.54 %
1.00 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 15.5 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (5 min) Hops 3.1 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (1 min) Hops 0.8 IBU


Mash overnight, holding at 154..........2 liter pacman starter....no worries on the mash temp, pacman will bring this beer down near 1.010.........can't wait to keg this one. My last FT clone was good, really good, but after discussing with friends, we feel that fat tire is no longer what it used to be and we are now trying to create how good it was back in the day when you had to get it in colorado. It seems now it is light bodied, bland and lacking complexity. My new recipe addresses all the issues that mass produced fat tire suffers from.......HEAVY light caramel and munich........pale choco and the kicker...a TOUCH of black patent........watch out!!

The eternal homebrewer and hophead in me is still being reserverd here...soon enough I am going to jack the base malt up, hit 1.065 or so OG, and finish with a ton of sterling and perle...............I think that would be a beer for the ages.
 
Alright boys, my latest incarnation of the fat tire inspired American Amber Ale......this beer is currently overnight mashing as I type this.....it is going to be outstanding:

8.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 72.33 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 9.04 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 6.78 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 6.78 %
0.25 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 2.26 %
0.25 lb Pale Chocolate Malt (200.0 SRM) Grain 2.26 %
0.06 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 0.54 %
1.00 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 15.5 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (5 min) Hops 3.1 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (1 min) Hops 0.8 IBU


Mash overnight, holding at 154..........2 liter pacman starter....no worries on the mash temp, pacman will bring this beer down near 1.010.........can't wait to keg this one. My last FT clone was good, really good, but after discussing with friends, we feel that fat tire is no longer what it used to be and we are now trying to create how good it was back in the day when you had to get it in colorado. It seems now it is light bodied, bland and lacking complexity. My new recipe addresses all the issues that mass produced fat tire suffers from.......HEAVY light caramel and munich........pale choco and the kicker...a TOUCH of black patent........watch out!!

This beer has been kegged for 5 days now, pulled my first pint last night. This is a great beer! I think the 5 minute willamete addition gives it a slight floral/earthy aroma that my earlier versions didn't have. I fermented with pacman at 68 degrees, I mashed overnight at 158! Pacman took it down to 1.010 and it has a great mouthfeel and taste. I think I am going to lock this recipe down.....I don't consider it a fat tire clone...I consider it an improvement.
 
Back again Permo, with great results. I did basically your latest, but as follows:

8.00 lb Pale Malt 2Row US
1.00 lb Munich
1.5 lb Crystal 20
0.25 Biscuit
0.25 Chocolate

I didn't do the overnight mash, instead I did a 60 minute @ 154° with a 30 minute decoction!

1.0 oz Willamette 60 min
1.0 oz Willamette 1 min

2 packs Notty @ 56° ambient, kept in primary for 4 1/2 weeks.

I just kegged this up and snuck a glass . . . Holy mackerel, I have absolutely found the house beer. Hats off to you sir.
 
Back again Permo, with great results. I did basically your latest, but as follows:

8.00 lb Pale Malt 2Row US
1.00 lb Munich
1.5 lb Crystal 20
0.25 Biscuit
0.25 Chocolate

I didn't do the overnight mash, instead I did a 60 minute @ 154° with a 30 minute decoction!

1.0 oz Willamette 60 min
1.0 oz Willamette 1 min

2 packs Notty @ 56° ambient, kept in primary for 4 1/2 weeks.

I just kegged this up and snuck a glass . . . Holy mackerel, I have absolutely found the house beer. Hats off to you sir.


You got it man! A nice dose of munich, heavy light crystal malt with a touch of chocolate really get's you a nice beer......you can experiment with biscuit, victory, special roast, aromatic..etc..etc...to make it your own.

I am glad you like it.....the base recipe is super.
 
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