Second vial for my trippel?

I'm pretty new to brewing, done a couple kits before, just started my first custom recepie. I was wondering if I should ad another vial of Trappist yeast to my batch.

Info:
In primary since March 10
OG 1.070
It's been at 70 degrees for the most part but I just checked and it's now at 77 bubbleing away at about 110 clicks a minute.
Fermentables are as follows:
6.6 lbs wheat LME
3 lbs Light Pilsen DME
1 lb Dark Candi Sugar
4 oz Aromatic Specialty Grain (steeped)

I'm not sure that hops matter for this but I have:
1 oz Saaz (bittering)
1 oz Tet (flavoring)
1 oz Hal (aroma)

did you do a starter or just throw the vial in? technically if you didn't then you should use 2 vials.. it really isnt' very cost effective to use anything other than dry yeast if you don't make starters..

since it is bubbling away you could just let it ride and see what the FG is in like 2 weeks

I did not do a starter, I was thinking that I'd throw another vial in by the weekend.

Throw it in now! Even 2 vials is not really enough yeast for 1070 OG. Will it ferment? yes, but it could be better beer with proper pitching rates. I would make a minimum 2 qt starter or use 3+ vials for an OG of 1055 or higher.

I did a tripel recently and only used one pack of T-58 dry yeast that had been rehydrated and got an ABV of 8.2% which is around what it should be. OG was 1.078, not sure what to tell you about the liquid yeast other than you either need a starter or you pitch double the amount when using it which I never use, i'm a dry yeast easy peasy guy.

You mentioned Trappist yeast? What kind? Wyeast High gravity 3787 is what I used in my Dubbel and I had to make a 2-step starter with my smack pack to get the proper pitching rate for a 1.067 OG Dubbel.

Sounds like you under-pitched by at least 50-75%. One thing though, if you under-pitch you will get more of the banana/clove flavors from the Trappist yeast which can actually be desirable in a Belgian style.

I used White Labs Trappist. Thanks for the info. I think I'm gunna throw one more in asap. I figure if that's still under pitched than I'd end up with a dubbel with the bannana/clove flavor that was mentioned.

Don't waste another vial of yeast! If it's already fermenting like crazy then the yeast has already propogated to a high enough population to ferment the beer and the damage from underpitching is already done. All of the yeast you add would probably die from the shock of abruptly entering such a different environment than what it is used to. Even if it did live it would only be a drop in the bucket compared to the yeast population that's already in there.

Couple of other things: Your recipe doesn't really look like a tripel per se. They don't have wheat or dark candi sugar. But, it does look delicious and that's all that matters!

Also, you should drastically reduce your fermentation temperature. 77 is WAY too hot during the high point of fermenation. It will result in fusel alcohols and weird off flavors. I would probably pitch around 65-68, then after high krausen raise the temp about 1 degree per day for about a week.

Alrighty. I will continue on with the yeast thats in it. As far as temperature, its been a steady 70 since Sunday and decided to jump up today. I turned the thermostat down before I left for work, if it's still high when I get home I will pit a fan on it or something.

As far as style, my intention is to create a wheat/trippel hybrid. I could have sworn candi or beet sugar was a signature component of trippels, maybe thats just light though. Like you said, I'm not too hung up on it as long as it taste good. I also hope to end up with an ABV of a least 5.9%

BrewPounder said:

Alrighty. I will continue on with the yeast thats in it. As far as temperature, its been a steady 70 since Sunday and decided to jump up today. I turned the thermostat down before I left for work, if it's still high when I get home I will pit a fan on it or something.

As far as style, my intention is to create a wheat/trippel hybrid. I could have sworn candi or beet sugar was a signature component of trippels, maybe thats just light though. Like you said, I'm not too hung up on it as long as it taste good. I also hope to end up with an ABV of a least 5.9%

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if your OG was 1.070 you should end up closer to 8% ABV with a Trappist yeast. Belgians are supposed to finish dry. My Dubbel started at 1.067 and finished at 1.010! 7.6% abv! The Candi sugar will ferment out completely which dries it out and boosts the alcohol, that's the point of the sugar as a fermentable.

Putting your fermenter in a water bath can help drop the temp and keep it stable. Otherwise you can cover the fermenter with damp towels and put a fan on it...the towels will pull heat away as they dry.

Excellenet info, thanks.

how long since you pitched that first vial?

ideally you want to pitch all the yeast at the beginning, when the wort is still a nice hospitable environment. now that vial #1 has a head-start, the beer contains alcohol - which is toxic to yeast. they do better with a gradual increase in ABV, vs. being thrown in directly (as vial #2 would be). pitching yeast into an alcoholic enviro will result in a portion of the cells deciding they can't hack it, and going into hibernation. the way around this is to make a starter with the second vial and add it to the main batch when the starter's activity is peaking (AKA at high krausen).

RIC0 said:

I did a tripel recently and only used one pack of T-58 dry yeast that had been rehydrated and got an ABV of 8.2% which is around what it should be. OG was 1.078, not sure what to tell you about the liquid yeast other than you either need a starter or you pitch double the amount when using it which I never use, i'm a dry yeast easy peasy guy.

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check out http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html - at 1.078, 1 pack of dry yeast was still under-pitching a bit. looks like you hit an FG of 1.016 based on your reported ABV. your OG is at the low end of the style but your FG is higher than the BJCP allows. had you pitched a pack and half as MrMalty suggests you might have driven your attenuation a bit lower. on the other hand i'm sure your trippel tasted great and that's all that matters

I pitched the vial Saturday night.

BrewPounder said:

I pitched the vial Saturday night.

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so the yeast have been working away for 3 days... you've got a decent amount of alcohol in there. if you get another vial, i'd give it 12 to 24 hours in a starter before pitching it.

Thanks. I think I'm gunna ride it out though just to be safe.

You definitely underpitched and are fermenting on the warm side of hot, but underpitching and high ferment temps can be a common practice for certain Belgians.

Whatever damage, if any, underpitching and fermenting warm caused can't be corrected by moving the fermenter to a cool area or pitching more yeast at this point. Let it ride at that temp so the yeast finish strong. Even with a lb of candi sugar, that much extract will probably cause the beer to finish in the teens though

What would be the danger if it does cool to 70 or so?

Probably nothing, but when the yeast are used to working at a certain temp, a sharp or significant drop in temperature can halt the yeast or cause it to come up short of its potential attenuation. If the temp slowly drops on it's own as the yeast slow down, I wouldn't worry about it. 70 definitely isn't cool. It's still on the higher end of ferment temps for most ales.

I try to raise the temp of my beer as fermentation is coming to a close. That, along with a little agitation has really helped me to get full attenuation out of my yeast.

peterj said:

Couple of other things: Your recipe doesn't really look like a tripel per se. They don't have wheat or dark candi sugar. But, it does look delicious and that's all that matters!

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Not sure that I've seen a tripel recipe with either of those.

BrewPounder said:

Alrighty. I will continue on with the yeast thats in it. As far as temperature, its been a steady 70 since Sunday and decided to jump up today. I turned the thermostat down before I left for work, if it's still high when I get home I will pit a fan on it or something.

As far as style, my intention is to create a wheat/trippel hybrid. I could have sworn candi or beet sugar was a signature component of trippels, maybe thats just light though. Like you said, I'm not too hung up on it as long as it taste good. I also hope to end up with an ABV of a least 5.9%

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Beet sugar/CLEAR candi sugar is pretty normal for a trippel. DARK candi sugar is more common in dubbels or Belgian Dark Strongs. That means that your recipe is probably technically a Belgian Dark Strong Ale (depending on how dark that candi sugar made it) or possibly a Dubbel (but the wheat is a little unusual.)

It doesn't really matter what you call the beer, it sounds very interesting. I am drinking a BDSA as I type this, and your post has me wondering what added complexity a little wheat might add...

I say let this recipe finish out as is, then re-brew it with the same malt/hops bill and pitch 2 vials of yeast (or make a starter) and compare the 2 side-by-side. Then you can decide for yourself which is the better beer. Your underpitched brew will probably still be pretty good, since esters and phenols are pretty characteristic of the Belgian styles...

peterj said:

Also, you should drastically reduce your fermentation temperature. 77 is WAY too hot during the high point of fermenation. It will result in fusel alcohols and weird off flavors. I would probably pitch around 65-68, then after high krausen raise the temp about 1 degree per day for about a week.

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i disagree. i use this yeast often and pitch around 65-68 for a day and then let it free rise on its own to 77 or 78 with no fusels. This is even cited in "Brew Like a Monk" with one example of Westvletern letting temperatures rise to 82. If you start it above 75 and let it rise, i think you are more likely to have this problem.

drunkrhino said:

i disagree. i use this yeast often and pitch around 65-68 for a day and then let it free rise on its own to 77 or 78 with no fusels. This is even cited in "Brew Like a Monk" with one example of Westvletern letting temperatures rise to 82. If you start it above 75 and let it rise, i think you are more likely to have this problem.

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You can't really compare commercial breweries' fermentation temps to the homebrew scale. The high pressure in their fermenting tanks due to large batches supresses ester production, so they need to raise the temperature a lot higher than a homebrewer doing a 5 gallon batch would to get the same amount of ester production.

A slow ramping up of fermentation temperatures about a degree or two every day is more recommended and easier on the yeast then letting it spike up 7-10 degrees overnight. I'm not saying it should never reach 77. That would be fine if it got to 77 after a week or so of slowly ramping up. But from what it sounds like the OP was at 77 degrees about 2-3 days after pitching and right at the high point of fermentation, which is undesirable.

I do agree though that a quick drop in fermenation temp back to 70 might shock the yeast a bit. So I would just cool it down a little bit and then just let it ride as was suggested earlier. It'll probably turn out fine still.