What's the deal with late Malt additions?

Okay so recently I noticed people talking about adding malt near the end or after the boil of their brews.

I'm a partial-grain brewer and usually after steeping I get my brew up to boil, remove flame, add in ALL my malt extract, then boil for 60 mins (adding in hop additions when planned).

I can see how late additions can prevent scorching the malt, but generally speaking I'm stirring the entire boil and haven't noticed any scorched flavors. I have however had beers come out darker than anticipated.

Are there any other benefits to adding malt late to the boil or post boil besides preventing scorching? If I do make late malt additions should I be worried about infections? (specifically when adding post-boil).

Thanks in advance!

My brother and I brew IPA's a decent amount.

Sounds like late malt additions would be beneficial to our final product.
Should the boil just be the steeped wort up until flameout and then add in the malt extract all at once? Or should it be broken up like hop additions?

Also, afterthought, would the malt be too clumped together making it difficult for the yeast to eat?

TyGuy716 said:

My brother and I brew IPA's a decent amount.

Sounds like late malt additions would be beneficial to our final product.
Should the boil just be the steeped wort up until flameout and then add in the malt extract all at once? Or should it be broken up like hop additions?

Also, afterthought, would the malt be too clumped together making it difficult for the yeast to eat?

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I liked adding all the extract at the end. I believe it is also pasteurized in the jug so it's a non-issue. I think I've read somewhere that you get a little better hop utilization with the extract added after the boil is done.

If the water is hot enough it will dissolve just fine and you shouldn't have any issues with clumping.

After steeping my grains. I bring the volume of water up to 3 1/2 gallons "5gal pot atm" I then add 1/4 of my extract. Bring to a boil then hops additions. I add the rest close at flame out. Hops need some malt/wort to work with. I dont think steeping grains do enough.

BxBrewer said:

After steeping my grains. I bring the volume of water up to 3 1/2 gallons "5gal pot atm" I then add 1/4 of my extract. Bring to a boil then hops additions. I add the rest close to flame out. Hops need some malt/wort to work with. I dont think steeping grains do enough.

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Okay, interesting. How close to flameout do you add? I was thinking if I try this with my next brew I would add ten minutes before or would the last minute be okay?.

And should I take my pot off the flame when I add? That's how I generally do it when I'm adding all the malt at the very beginning of the boil.

This is what I've been doing.

Steep grains.
Remove grains
Bring to boil
Add ~1lb of malt.
Add bitter hops
Boil 60min
Turn off flame
Add rest of malt and stir
Cool wort.

Especially if working with IPAs or IIPAs (or any other hop bomb-y sort of thing) be a little cautious using only late malt additions. Alpha acid extraction (thus IBUs) increase as the specific gravity of the wort decreases. Thus, if you are working from a recipe that assumes standard malt extract additions at the beginning of the boil, you may find that you have appreciably increased the bitterness by adding all of your malt at flame out.

By way of example, just using Hopville's online recipe calculator:
a 5 gallon batch, all dry malt extract brew with 6lbs of malt and 1.25 oz of brewers gold hops at 8% AA (0.75 at 60min, 0.25 at 15 min and 0.25 at flame out) gives you 35.1 IBU.
If you change the malt extract from "Mash" to "Late boil," (whatever that means) the IBUs change to 53.6 -- a 150% increase in IBUs.

Granted these calculations make all sorts of assumptions -- my only point is that you need to be a little careful when making this sort of adjustment. Who knows, you might like it better; but this way you'll at least expect the change.

-A

Sounds like you're saying that late malt additions make a hoppier brew?

Sounds awesome if I'm understanding you correctly.

Thanks for the help, guys. I think I'm going to try this late malt addition this weekend.

It's been disproven that wort gravity impacts hops utilization, and those calculators are flawed in that respect.

If you actually measure the IBUs, the difference will be negligible. Hops utilization is very complicated, but adding the extract early or late has no effect on the actual IBUs of the beer.

I like the "cleaner" flavor of adding the bulk of the extract at flame out. Not only is the beer lighter in color, but it has far less of a "cooked extract" taste and less maillard reactions (similar to caramelization type flavors).

TyGuy716 said:

Okay, interesting. How close to flameout do you add? I was thinking if I try this with my next brew I would add ten minutes before or would the last minute be okay?.

And should I take my pot off the flame when I add? That's how I generally do it when I'm adding all the malt at the very beginning of the boil.

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Ive always understood to steep small and boil big. Since my aroma hops are added at 1min till flame out. I just add the rest once the full 60min is up. At 212 degrees "boiling" its not going to cool off that fast. Its still hot enough to mix in the extract and dissolve it.

I have to say this. If you havent tried using extra light malt extract and then using the steeping grains for color and flavor. Give it a try, the combonation of late addition and using steeping grains for color and flavor is amazing.

Yooper,

I was just going by Palmer's book... citing a reference from '94.
Any chance you can send a link or reference to more modern data? Would love to know it/see it.
The only time I've done late additions has been for monster big beers, when it was simply a matter of folding in enough extract/volume in my brew kettle, and lambics, when I wanted pale beers but had such minimal hop additions and long aging times that I doubt it made a lick of difference.

pkiller001 said:

Yooper,

I was just going by Palmer's book... citing a reference from '94.
Any chance you can send a link or reference to more modern data? Would love to know it/see it.
The only time I've done late additions has been for monster big beers, when it was simply a matter of folding in enough extract/volume in my brew kettle, and lambics, when I wanted pale beers but had such minimal hop additions and long aging times that I doubt it made a lick of difference.

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Palmer himself said he "got it wrong" in How To Brew. He presented that in about 2008, I think it was, at the NHC. I've heard him talking about it on Basic Brewing Radio from about that time as well, in a podcast called something like, "What is an IBU, really?"

Palmer is the one who told me, and then he presented that as well. He told me in person, when we were having a few beers, but I'm sure he still knew what he was talking about!

He did say something like "break material may impact utilization, but not wort gravity". I'm sure a google search could turn it up. I'm on my "netbook" now and don't have those links handy.

Hmmm.
You've just rocked my world.
I may have to hunt down that pod cast. Mechanisitically I guess utilization from an IBU standpoint is related to time exposed to heat, rather than extraction of AA from the hops?

I knew logging on today would destroy any work ethic I had cobbled together, now all I want to do is research hop utilization!

Sorry for hijacking the thread -- back to late malt additions.

Does the late addition of DME also make it less likely to have a boil over? I always thought the malt was the cause of it.

TyGuy716 said:

Does the late addition of DME also make it less likely to have a boil over? I always thought the malt was the cause of it.

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I use FermcapS when boiling,fermenting etc. I don't have boil overs. :rockin: