I recently started kegging and I can't seem to get the foam to stop flowing foam from the keg. I have tried both force carbonation and natural, but the results are the same. I have tapped over a gallon at a time and it is all foam. I know I am doing something wrong and I would appreciate any suggestions to fix my problem.
Keg problem
- Thread starter 72C10
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anthrobe
Well-Known Member
72C10 said:
What size of liquid line are you using. I used to have this problem until I extended the liquid line length. I now run 3/16" line for the liquid and is at least 6ft long. Then I run 1/4" line for the CO2. What pressure are you serving at. I generally am serving anywhere from 8psi to 12psi.
Chill your keg until any excess co2 is absorbed into the beer then set your reg to 3 -5psi. As long as you dont let the temperature rise too much above a ball park figure of 13 deg c you'll serve foam free beer and still be able to produce a good sized head on a pint.
If I were to follow that balancing nonsense and set my reg to 12 psi id get nothing but foam from my quick dispense tap/faucet and very little of it would be in the glass.
If I were to follow that balancing nonsense and set my reg to 12 psi id get nothing but foam from my quick dispense tap/faucet and very little of it would be in the glass.
DAAB said:
Maybe nonsense to you, but to the rest of us 'balanced' folks, it works perfectly. I get no foam at 12 psi.
A constant 3 psi in akeg will give you virtually 'flat' tasting beer. If that's what you like, more power to you.
Don't understand your comment about 'excess' carbonation. Are you assuming that you can 'overcarbonate' a beer, then back off the pressure to serve? If so, the CO2 will just come out of solution and you'll have to start all over again.
Janx
Well-Known Member
The balancing concept is very important. Mikey is totally right.
You can shortchange the process and end up with acceptable results, but if you really want it to work, you need to figure out what pressure will carbonate your beer to the desired level and leave the gas at that pressure. Because this is usually 12 PSI or so, and beer poured with a short hose at 12 PSI will foam because of the sudden pressure drop and violent pour, you need a longer hose. The beer line must create enough back pressure so that the beer pours at a nice rate and the CO2 stays in solution until it leaves the tap.
Unless you are drinking a keg all at once, the 3 PSI pouring trick will flatten your beer, since 3 PSI isn't enough pressure to keep the CO2 in solution. Also, reducing the pressure drastically will cause the beer to foam as the CO2 rushes out of solution. Like when you open a soda.
Cheers
You can shortchange the process and end up with acceptable results, but if you really want it to work, you need to figure out what pressure will carbonate your beer to the desired level and leave the gas at that pressure. Because this is usually 12 PSI or so, and beer poured with a short hose at 12 PSI will foam because of the sudden pressure drop and violent pour, you need a longer hose. The beer line must create enough back pressure so that the beer pours at a nice rate and the CO2 stays in solution until it leaves the tap.
Unless you are drinking a keg all at once, the 3 PSI pouring trick will flatten your beer, since 3 PSI isn't enough pressure to keep the CO2 in solution. Also, reducing the pressure drastically will cause the beer to foam as the CO2 rushes out of solution. Like when you open a soda.
Cheers
Just looked at that site and if that is what I have to do to enjoy good draft beer then I think I'll go back to bottles. When I purchased my kegging stuff, no one mentioned how difficult it would be to balance the system. Stuff like that sucks all of the fun out of home brewing.vtfan99 said:
If that works for you, more power to you but I think I will set my system at 10 PSI to get a carbonation level of 2.4 volumes and then tweak the pressure until I can pour a great pint.
It sounds like youre confusing pressure in the keg with carbonation. Because I rack my beer 'bright' to the keg I have to force carbonate my beer which involves increasing the pressure and chilling it so the co2 is absorbed. (some people rock their kegs or something similar to force carbonate, that seems like alot of effort to me). This may have to be done more than once if the keg isnt consumed within a few weeks.
Once the beer is carbonated it will stay that way all the time there is pressure in the keg, much like a bottle of soda, the drink is fizzy but there is only a small amount of pressure (the co2 has been absorbed in the soda). The 3-5 psi set on the regulator purely to deliver the beer out of the tap.
If you notice I dont talk about excess carbonation but excess co2, I could have described this as excess pressure but of course its only excess to the void it occupies, once it is absorbed into the beer its no longer in excess but serving a useful purpose carbonating the liquid (again try not to confuse carbonation with pressure, dont forget you can have a carbonated beverage under very little pressure, remember the soda bottle)
Now if you'll excuse me I will draw off some carbonated beer from my chilled keg with my regulator set somewhere close to 3-5 psi just to confirm I am correct.
BTW, if 'balancing' your kegs keeps you happy dont let me stop you, i'm sure it serves some purpose, how many can you balance at once, can you tap dance too
Once the beer is carbonated it will stay that way all the time there is pressure in the keg, much like a bottle of soda, the drink is fizzy but there is only a small amount of pressure (the co2 has been absorbed in the soda). The 3-5 psi set on the regulator purely to deliver the beer out of the tap.
If you notice I dont talk about excess carbonation but excess co2, I could have described this as excess pressure but of course its only excess to the void it occupies, once it is absorbed into the beer its no longer in excess but serving a useful purpose carbonating the liquid (again try not to confuse carbonation with pressure, dont forget you can have a carbonated beverage under very little pressure, remember the soda bottle)
Now if you'll excuse me I will draw off some carbonated beer from my chilled keg with my regulator set somewhere close to 3-5 psi just to confirm I am correct.
BTW, if 'balancing' your kegs keeps you happy dont let me stop you, i'm sure it serves some purpose, how many can you balance at once, can you tap dance too
Janx
Well-Known Member
Rich, I've never gone through all the numbers myself. I do what you suggest. Tweak it and mess with it until it pours right. But in the end, what you have done is balance the system. It's the kind of thing you just have to get right once, so it really doesn't suck much fun.
I've seen the results before and after of getting a commercial tap line setup right in a pub. There are definitely non-intuitive aspects to draft systems.
I've seen the results before and after of getting a commercial tap line setup right in a pub. There are definitely non-intuitive aspects to draft systems.
I just went down and poured (or tried to pour) a pint and got nothing but foam. My regulator is set at 10 PSI. Should I set the regulator to 5psi and try again? It seemed to pour way too fast. Also, if you dispense at 5 psi do you have to bring it back up to 10 pounds when you are done pouring to maintain the correct carbonation?
I leave mine set at 4 psi at the moment and I generaly dont have to touch it. If you think your beer is flat, set the reg to 12+psi and leave it in a cold place over night. Back off the pressure and let the excess co2 naturaly become absorbed into the beer or release the pressure and reset to somewhere around 4 psi, adjust it to give your pint more or less head. Dont allow your keg to get too warm, you'll be serving foam no matter what pressure you set.
JoeCoastie
Member
RichBrewer said:
I was wondering the same thing, I just kegged my first batch on Thursday night, it's been at 12 psi, where I plan to leave it for a couple more days. The way I understand it, once my beer has absorbed (or carbonated) at 12 psi, i can back it down to 3psi or so to serve. Once I do this, the beer should still maintain it's 12 psi, as long as there is still pressure in the keg, I don't need to keep it at 12 psi to maintain the carbonation. Correct?
Sean
DeRoux's Broux
Well-Known Member
there's other things to consider. the ID of the lines, temp of the brew, the amount force carb'd with, and the dispensing PSI. if it's foamy, i'd disconnect the gas in, vent the keg, re-set PSI at arounf 7-9 PSI, re-attach the gas in, and let it sit for 24 hrs. try it again. that's how i've had success when needing to make adjustments, and got that from my local HBS.
sometimes not enough PSI in will result in foaming.
sometimes not enough PSI in will result in foaming.
I'm obviously no expert but from my understanding, if you leave the pressure of your keg at 3 psi the system will equalize and your beer will eventually go flat. I would think you would dispense at 3-5 psi and then turn the pressure back up to keep the beer carbonated. All that information on balancing your system says to do it differently but I for one don't understand it.JoeCoastie said:
RichBrewer said:
You're exactly right. The CO2 will not stay in solution if you reduce the pressure from 12 to 3 psi, contrary to the belief of some posters.
As an experiment, open a big bottle of coke. Pour some out. Reseal the bottle and come back in a week. Has the coke retained it's full carbonation? No. The CO2 came out of solution in an effort to equalize the pressure in the bottle. Basic physics.
The 'art' of balancing a system is actually pretty simple in practice, it just sounds complicated when you see formulas as long as your arm. You can raise and lower the pressure each time you want to pour a glass, but that wastes a lot of gas. Each to his own.
A tried-and-true balanced set up is:
1) keg chilled to serving temps
2) CO2 set to 10-12 psi for a week or so
3) outlet tube 3/16" inside diameter, 5-6 feet long.
4) pouring faucet/tap and outlet line chilled to serving temp
5) open the tap all the way whenever you pour
Our LHBS sells 'pre-packaged' setups like this, 100% success rate.
JoeCoastie
Member
Great! I'm glad you guys set me straight! Thanks for your insight!
Sean
Sean
If you still struggle with foam and or flat beer try this little experiment. Bring the temp of you keg/beer to above cellar temp and turn up the reg to 20 psi. Shut off the co2 valve and shake/rock the c£@P out of it and watch the co2 pressure drop as the co2 is absorbed into the beer. Now drop the temp down to cellar temp and allow time for the beer to cool.
Now turn co2 back on and set your reg to a 'low' setting and serve, you may even find that you can serve at a higher pressure than I have suggested.
The real trick is to carbonate at a temperature higher than serving temp and set your regulator lower than carbonation pressure.
Why dont you keg balancers have a go to, you've got nothing to loose as i'm not suggesting shortening or lengthening any pipework. It does involve a certain amount of physical exertion which goes against the grain of relaxing with a HB but it does work.
Now turn co2 back on and set your reg to a 'low' setting and serve, you may even find that you can serve at a higher pressure than I have suggested.
The real trick is to carbonate at a temperature higher than serving temp and set your regulator lower than carbonation pressure.
Why dont you keg balancers have a go to, you've got nothing to loose as i'm not suggesting shortening or lengthening any pipework. It does involve a certain amount of physical exertion which goes against the grain of relaxing with a HB but it does work.
My system came with a 4 foot 3/16 ID beer line. Do I need to get a longer one? I'm Going to try and pour another glass here in a minute. Wish me luck!Mikey said:
JoeCoastie
Member
I just went out to the garage and poured the first glass of beer from my keg. I had no issues with foam pouring at 12 psi. I'm using the setup that was supplied with my keg system that I bought online from ebrew.com. The hose is about 5.5' long, seems to work just fine.
The beer seems to have a good amount of carbonation after almost 2 days of being in the keg, couple more days and I think it will be real nice
The beer seems to have a good amount of carbonation after almost 2 days of being in the keg, couple more days and I think it will be real nice
I dropped the pressure from 10 to 5 PSI and poured a pint. It worked great! Only problem is now I have to keep adjusting the pressure on the regulator.
Here it is. Pretty good beer I might add.
Here it is. Pretty good beer I might add.
JoeCoastie
Member
Good lookin' pint! What happens if you just leave the pressure set at 10psi and pour?
cowain
Well-Known Member
Mikey said:
I don't think your example holds true to real life situations. Yes, coke goes flat when you leave it in the bottle for a week. It could be attributed to the fact that there is 0 PSI in the bottle, not 10 or 5 or whatever. Perhaps some amount of PSI in the keg could cause the CO2 to stay diluted in the beer. I dunno. All I know is that I have a American Pale Ale that's been on tap for about 4 weeks or so now at 10 PSI after being carbonated at a higher volume and there has been no noticeable decline in CO2 in the beer.
If I leave the pressure at 10 PSI the beer, or should I say foam, rushes out way too fast. I turn it down to 5 psi and I get a nice flow rate with little foam.JoeCoastie said:
Maybe the beer line is too short. I might try to change it to 6 feet. Now, where can I find some of this line???
Ok, there seems to still be some confusion.cowain said:
All the doubters please go memorize this first:
http://members.aol.com/profchm/boyle.html
If you don't like his law go argue with him, not me. Now please read this regarding the coke analogy
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae653.cfm
The amount of CO2 dissolved in a liquid is directly linked to the temperature of the liquid and the pressure of the gas. If you change one or the other, the amount of gas dissolved in the liquid also changes. There is no physical law that states that once a gas is dissolved in a liquid it can't or won't come back out. It does.
If you carbonate a beer at 20psi and at typical serving temperatures, a fixed and finite amount of CO2 will dissolve in the beer, given sufficient time. The exact amount is quoted in a myriad of tables that are available online and in brewing books.
If you reduce that pressure to 19psi, a small amount of gas will come back out of solution and stabilize. If you reduce it to 1psi, almost all of the gas will come back out and stabilize. Boyle says so.
The Coke example I gave is correct and accurate, but extreme because the keg (bottle) pressure was reduced to atmospheric, and a large proportion of the contents was poured out. The remaining Coke went almost flat after the bottle was recapped because most of the remaining CO2 in the Coke came back out of solution to balance the partial pressure inside the bottle. Blame Boyle.
The goal with kegging beer is:
1) choosing our favourite serving temperature
2) choosing our favourite carbonation level
3) finding a way to get the beer out of the keg and into our glass with the temperature and carbonation level intact.
You can do all the gyrations you want with shaking kegs and playing with pressures up and down but Mr. Boyle states that it will make no difference in the end.
What you DON'T want to do with pouring a kegged beer is have all the CO2 come out of solution in a great rush- this causes the dreaded foaming.
Aside from having every piece of your system kept at serving temperature (including the serving line and tap) you need to find a way to 'ease' the beer from 10-12 psig in the keg, to your glass which is at atmospheric or zero psig. The standard way of doing this is to use restrictor tubing which is quoted to have 1.5 to 2 psi 'resistance' per foot. The resistance number is only applicable for a certain density of liquid traveling at a certain speed, but the quoted number works for beer.
Think of it this way - if your beer is stabilized at 12 psi, and you have 5 feet of tubing @ 2 psi drop per foot, then the beer will exit the tubing at 2 psi. Beer exiting the tubing at 2 psi into your glass (sitting at 0 psi) will do very little foaming.
There's other factors that come in to play that require some fine tuning (vertical height of your tap above the keg is one) and individual characteristics of serving taps, etc. but the concept is sound and is used in pubs and breweries around the world.
Hope this helps.
OK. Now that makes more sense than anything else I've read. Can I just use this idea to figure the length of the beer line instead of using all of those formulas that don't make any sense to me?Mikey said:Think of it this way - if your beer is stabilized at 12 psi, and you have 5 feet of tubing @ 2 psi drop per foot, then the beer will exit the tubing at 2 psi. Beer exiting the tubing at 2 psi into your glass (sitting at 0 psi) will do very little foaming.
Hope this helps.
There is a complex relation ship between a liquid, temperature and how much and how fast gas is absorbed into the liquid, there is also a similar relationship as to how quickly the co2 pressure that is held within that liquid will come out of suspension. It’s this relationship that I suggested exploiting in order to serve carbonated beer using low pressures to prevent foaming.
If you have every used a secondary fermenter and airlock at lower temperatures say to allow a beer to fall bright, you may have noticed that the beer can become carbonated despite the airlock allowing the pressure to equalise with ambient. If the beer is disturbed (ie stirred) it will release its co2 due creating a pressure at the surface greater than ambient. There is no doubt co2 will eventually come out of suspension of its own accord, which is why I suggested that if the poster was having problems with flat beer that he increased the pressure over night before serving again.
The shaking of the keg technique is not something that I use but is used by many corni owners to speed up the rate of absorption, I have no idea how it works but I can assure you it does, I deliberately tested the method before posting to make sure it did. Why don’t you try it next time? Apply a pressure to the keg disconnect the supply and shake; the pressure gauge indicates a drop. A similar thing happens when a perfectly sealed pressurised keg is exposed to a drop in temperature say over night. Despite the temperature returning the next day there is now little or no pressure in the keg, it hasn’t leaked out or disobeyed boles law, the co2 pressure is simply suspended in the liquid. This is why the coke doesn’t go flat the moment the pressure on the liquid is allowed to equalise with ambient pressure.
If you have every used a secondary fermenter and airlock at lower temperatures say to allow a beer to fall bright, you may have noticed that the beer can become carbonated despite the airlock allowing the pressure to equalise with ambient. If the beer is disturbed (ie stirred) it will release its co2 due creating a pressure at the surface greater than ambient. There is no doubt co2 will eventually come out of suspension of its own accord, which is why I suggested that if the poster was having problems with flat beer that he increased the pressure over night before serving again.
The shaking of the keg technique is not something that I use but is used by many corni owners to speed up the rate of absorption, I have no idea how it works but I can assure you it does, I deliberately tested the method before posting to make sure it did. Why don’t you try it next time? Apply a pressure to the keg disconnect the supply and shake; the pressure gauge indicates a drop. A similar thing happens when a perfectly sealed pressurised keg is exposed to a drop in temperature say over night. Despite the temperature returning the next day there is now little or no pressure in the keg, it hasn’t leaked out or disobeyed boles law, the co2 pressure is simply suspended in the liquid. This is why the coke doesn’t go flat the moment the pressure on the liquid is allowed to equalise with ambient pressure.
buttugly
Ugly AND Old
I had the same problem when I first started kegging, the foam was horrible. I finally discovered that I had no O Ring under the outlet tube and the gas was pumping as much air from the leak as it was beer. Check your O rings.
