Power requirements for eventual electric setup

So my wife and I just purchased our first home a little over two month ago. After resolving a large majority of the must-fix to-do list items I now have time to address the brewery... I know, I know, that should have been first, right? I need to have an electrician run a new circuit for power on the unfinished side of the basement so i can connect my keg fridge, ferm chamber, stir plate etc. There currently is only a lighting circuit. While I have the electrician there I figure i should run service for my future electric brew setup. The problem I am having is deciding how much power I will need? I currently have a very basic all grain setup that heavily relies on manual labor (no pumps, no separate liquor tank). When i move to electric, I would like to be able to move inside so i can have a dedicated setup and not have to lug everything outside, as well as advance my system (herms or rims). I currently brew 6 gallon batches, but in the past have done 3 and am strongly considering going back to 3 as I dont consume it quickly enough. If I need to make something larger than 6 I will go back outside for that specific occasion (probably never haha).

So here are a few of my questions:
1A) If I have the electrician put in 30A/250v line (possibly through spa panel). Can I split the two hot poles in my control panel to run 125V stuff (pretty sure i have seen this in others)?
1b) If I can split it, could I still run 250v stuff? For example, say I decide to have a 20A/250v plug, can I allocate the other 10 amps worth of energy 110v circuit? Guess I really would like to know about the limits of what i can do in the control panel
2) Considering instead of heatsticks I might go the induction route. If I wanted to do induction cooktops they would probably each need their own 15 or 20amp 125v circuit - is this possible through splitting up that 30a/250v sercive or should I have just run multiple 20a/125v lines?
3) since I will be spending a decent amount of money to eventually get this setup going, I'd like to speed up the brewday if possible, what is "too much" when it comes to heating elements if I am only doing 3 gallon batches (5500w, 4500w)? I guess the pot geometry comes into play to ensure the element is covered, otherwise any considerations?
4) would a standard range hood be enough to handle the moisture since i will usual be doing smaller batches, or will i still need a custom venting solution with a powerful squirrel cage type fan?


hopefully, this made sense! I am sure I will have more thoughts questions once I get some answers. Just trying to thoughtfully think ahead so I will have the right power setup for when i actually go to make electric setup. Any thoughts are much appreciated

Edit1: The reason i was thinking 30a/250v is so I would be able to take the system with us if we move years down the road - easy connection to a dryer outlet.

IMO, you would want a 30a/240v circuit DEDICATED to a future brewery panel, with a GFCI, and 10/3+ground wiring. You will be able to run both 240v and 120v in your brewery panel.

Run separate 15a or 20a 120v circuits for everything else that you anticipate.

You are correct that if you go the PID and SSR route, you can go with the most powerful element that will fit in the kettle subject to your amperage (a 5500w is a common choice).

jeffmeh said:

IMO, you would want a 30a/240v circuit DEDICATED to a future brewery panel, with a GFCI, and 10/3+ground wiring. You will be able to run both 240v and 120v in your brewery panel.

Run separate 15a or 20a 120v circuits for everything else that you anticipate.

You are correct that if you go the PID and SSR route, you can go with the most powerful element that will fit in the kettle subject to your amperage (a 5500w is a common choice).

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Thanks, Due to my smaller batch size I can't see why i would nee more than 30a/240v so I will probably have that installed to a dryer style 30 amp 4 prong outlet so it will be ready for when i can eventual make the jump. Now to decide on the spa panel or if I should just get the gfci I cord I see people using. I really want to make this as portable/future-proof as possible. Its a shame my place has a gas dryer, otherwise, I would conceivable already have the power necessary!

I was def planning to have a separate circuit for the other items, this was my main intention for the electrician in the first place.

What is the part in the control panel that separates the 240v into 120v? Would like to start researching about all that. Thanks

My spa panel has a 50amp run with 1x 220v @ 30 amps and 2x 110v @ 20 amp circuits.

This should handle the brewery and all the lights and outlets in your basement. The spa panel is just a cheap sub panel with a gfci breaker.

jCOSbrew said:

My spa panel has a 50amp run with 1x 220v @ 30 amps and 2x 110v @ 20 amp circuits.

This should handle the brewery and all the lights and outlets in your basement. The spa panel is just a cheap sub panel with a gfci breaker.

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Hmm interesting. You are thinking it would be cheaper to run the cable for 50 amps (6awg) to a spa panel and split from there compared to running two separate lines 30amps(10awg) and a separate 20/1120v circuit for regular basement power? Not a bad idea, i will have to look into it.

Ok, I have been reading a lot the past two days and am confused about how the 240v gets split. If i got with the 30amp/240v service into the control box and I want to run something which requires 20amp/240v, can I still split the hot poles for 110v applications as long as I know the draw on the remaining side is less than 10amps? For example I am interested in the 3500 watt induction cooker which has a 20a/240v 6-20p plug. Would I then be able to have 2, 110v circuits capable of up to 10 amps if the cooktop is on?

When they run the 240 you will have a red, black, white and green wire. The green is ground, white is neutral and the other two are hot leads. You can tap off either the black or red to get your 120 power.

Inside of your control panel put 3 terminal strips. One for each hot (red), hot (black), and neutral (white). If you want a 120V outlet in your panel connect it to a hot terminal and the neutral terminal. If you want a 240V outlet in your panel connect it to the one hot terminal and the other hot terminal.

As far as the amperage goes, add up the current for everything you will be using and make sure it is 80% or less than your wire (and hopefully matching circuit breaker) is rated for.

My understanding is that the 80% rule is meant for continuous loads (3 hours continuous). It's likely more conservative than necessary for your situation. Matching the circuit breaker to the the wire gauge to protect the wire is very important.

We run a 50 amp service at around 48 amps for 16 hours straight on brew days. Wire is sized correctly. Haven't had any issues besides popping it once on a hot day

grupe said:

We run a 50 amp service at around 48 amps for 16 hours straight on brew days. Wire is sized correctly. Haven't had any issues besides popping it once on a hot day

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I like your brew days... Succeeding at something doesn't necessarily make it safe--but I would say if it has only tripped once that has to be pretty safe. Are the wires warm to the touch?

jeffmeh said:

My understanding is that the 80% rule is meant for continuous loads (3 hours continuous). It's likely more conservative than necessary for your situation. Matching the circuit breaker to the the wire gauge to protect the wire is very important.

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After a little research I believe you are right right down to the 3 hours... Which is ultimately good--but makes me think my 60 amp rig could have been built as a 50 and saved me a few bucks... Oh well, you rarely regret being too safe... Although it would only be my detached garage that burned down. Furthermore, on a PID the element is likely not on continuously for more than the 45-60 minutes it takes to reach temp. While maintaining the temp the current will be fluctuating continuously.

Ok, thanks! Think I am following, one last question regarding divvying up the power (ignoring 100% since i doubt i will need that much additional power). Assuming use of the terminal blocks and I have each of the hot legs pulling a full 20a/240v, does the remaining potential power stay with its pole? Meaning I have 10amps left on each? Does it mess anything up if you pull from only one of the remain poles and not the other? Sorry if these are stupid, just trying to comprehend

jeffmeh said:

My understanding is that the 80% rule is meant for continuous loads (3 hours continuous). It's likely more conservative than necessary for your situation. Matching the circuit breaker to the the wire gauge to protect the wire is very important.

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The electrician I am working with is actually an HBT member and did allude to the fact that for these ebrew applications you can go 100% for short periods of time. I think by code you cant hard wire anything that would surpass that 80% - which makes sense.

Thanks again! I think I will be fine with what I will eventually want to do with 30amps so thats what I will have him install. Now to start saving up the money for the actual stuff - so much more expensive then I was initially thinking haha

Run 6 gauge romex to a sub panel with a 50 amp breaker on your main panel. From that sub panel you can run 110 15 amp circuits and one 30 amp 240 circuit. Just remember not to vacumn, do your hair while brewing. Running your own wiring is easy and safe with the right research and know how.

Beyond my pay grade.... But it sounds right.... 20 amps at 240 on each hot leg. 10 more amps on leg one plus 10 more amps on leg two would make a total of 30 amps on each hot and only 20 amps on the neutral... Take this with a grain of salt.

To anwser your remaining power question. Remaining amps is base on load, not potential. So you could have 3 15 amp circuits, and 3 30 amp circuits on a 50 amp breaker. As long as the actual amp draw on all those circuits does not exceed ~50 amps, the breaker will no trip. Make sense? Open you house breaker box, add up the numbers on the breakers, you will far exceed the 200 amp service that is feeding your house.

Edit: you should not wire this many breakers on a 50 amp sub panel.

theichthus said:

Beyond my pay grade.... But it sounds right.... 20 amps at 240 on each hot leg. 10 more amps on leg one plus 10 more amps on leg two would make a total of 30 amps on each hot and only 20 amps on the neutral... Take this with a grain of salt.

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Your wire gauge needs to be rated at the max amp draw. I do not understand the leg statement. 240 works by +120 and -120 and a neutral. That gives you 240. You could run a 5 watt 240 device and that would only pull .48 amps. If you are pulling a 120 leg off a 240 circuit, you are using one hot leg and a neutral. The wiring still needs to be rated for the max amp potential unless you have a fuse protecting it.

Maybe I am off, I have had a night of drinking and I am no expert.

Last answer. A range hood might suffice, but I would recommend at least a 4" fan. The vortex 6" works great.

Thanks milldoggy!

milldoggy said:

Last answer. A range hood might suffice, but I would recommend at least a 4" fan. The vortex 6" works great.

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I had a feeling this would be the case, better safe then moldy

milldoggy said:

Run 6 gauge romex to a sub panel with a 50 amp breaker on your main panel. From that sub panel you can run 110 15 amp circuits and one 30 amp 240 circuit. Just remember not to vacumn, do your hair while brewing. Running your own wiring is easy and safe with the right research and know how.

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You saying not to run those devices off that sub panel, right? Or in the whole house in general? We know SWMBO will want to vacuum and blow dry the hair while im brewing

I was just saying if you run a 50 amp sub panel and you only have 50 amps. Just make sure to not exceed that in the subpanel while brewering.

brettwasbtd said:

Ok, thanks! Think I am following, one last question regarding divvying up the power (ignoring 100% since i doubt i will need that much additional power). Assuming use of the terminal blocks and I have each of the hot legs pulling a full 20a/240v, does the remaining potential power stay with its pole? Meaning I have 10amps left on each? Does it mess anything up if you pull from only one of the remain poles and not the other? Sorry if these are stupid, just trying to comprehend



The electrician I am working with is actually an HBT member and did allude to the fact that for these ebrew applications you can go 100% for short periods of time. I think by code you cant hard wire anything that would surpass that 80% - which makes sense.

Thanks again! I think I will be fine with what I will eventually want to do with 30amps so thats what I will have him install. Now to start saving up the money for the actual stuff - so much more expensive then I was initially thinking haha

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Again, I am no expert, but from doing some research it appears that the 80% rule in the code only applies to continuous loads, continuous defined as drawing current for 3 hours straight. In a brewery application we generally don't have continuous loads. PIDs cycle heating elements on and off, pumps have surge currents then draw less, etc.

The cost difference per foot is 30-50 cents between 6 and 8 guage, I was saying pay for 6 gauge in case you ever want to run 50 amps.

milldoggy said:

I was just saying if you run a 50 amp sub panel and you only have 50 amps. Just make sure to not exceed that in the subpanel while brewering.

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Ok thats what i thought, just checking

milldoggy said:

The cost difference per foot is 30-50 cents between 6 and 8 guage, I was saying pay for 6 gauge in case you ever want to run 50 amps.

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Right, makes sense to future proof, although i really dont see why I would need that much. As I mentioned I don't plan on making more than 6 gallons at a time. I need electrical outlets for this quadrant of the basement anyways, which is the main reason i need wire run. If I only will need 30 amps for brewery side of things, it maybe be cheaper to buy the heavier wire and run 50amps to the spa panel and then have 2 20amp/120v circuits branch out of that for the basement power, which even then is more than i need. This would be opposed to running cable for the 30a/240v circuit and one 20 amp circuit. But looks like 6awg is rather pricey compared to 10.

Edit1: The reason i was thinking 30a/250v is so I would be able to take the system with us if we move years down the road - easy connection to a dryer outlet.

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If and when you move, are you likely to pick a house less conducive to your hobby? True, using any standard dryer outlet would be convenient, but brewing next to your dryer might not be. If you have such an eye towards your brewing habits at this house and at this stage, I would think future houses will only be more customizable towards brewing.

The wire is the cheapest part of your decision. Breakers/GFIs, outlets, and plugs are where the price rises as you incress your amperage. Consider running 6 AWG wire, because that is the hard and semi-permanent part. You can still size everything else at 30 AMP, but you could then very easily upgrade to 50 amps in the future. Just saying--what is hardwired in your house is the hard part to change. Swapping out breakers or outlets can be done by anyone. I am running a dedicated 60 amp GFI to a 60 amp outlet. From their I have a 60 amp plug on 4AWG wire going into my panel. From their I can accomplish nearly anything I want.

theichthus said:

The wire is the cheapest part of your decision. Breakers/GFIs, outlets, and plugs are where the price rises as you incress your amperage. Consider running 6 AWG wire, because that is the hard and semi-permanent part. You can still size everything else at 30 AMP, but you could then very easily upgrade to 50 amps in the future.

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+1. This is what I did in my new basement brewery as well. My control panel is 30A/240V and while I don't ever envision going with the larger (50A) control panel I designed the cost difference between 10ga and 6ga isn't great so I had the electrician install 6ga. Just in case. The wall receptacle is still a standard 30A dryer outlet and the breaker is still a 2-pole 30A breaker.

Incidentally, you were asking about how 120V is split from 240V - my article on control panel supply power may be useful.

Good luck!

Kal

Wow. Kal himself quoted me. My. Day. Has. Been. Made. The way I have poured over your site for 14 months has been close to idolatrous. Thanks for all you do.