Glycol Cooling system for Blichmann Fermenator

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jo83ben

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I was wondering about doing some sort of temp control on a blichmann conical for lagering, but being poor as I am I do not have a blichmann to fool around with haha. but my idea was to utilize an old freezer to cool a glycol tank, and a pump hooked to a temp controller to circulate cold glycol through copper tubing into the fermenator sort of like a wort chiller set up. the problem i'm not sure how to avoid is the beer freezing to the copper tubing. i thought maybe getting around this by having some sort of gentle stirring system in the fermenator, though i'm not sure it would even be a big deal if the beer froze a little too the tubing, as it was melt as soon as the glycol flow was shut off. and i've heard of entire lager batches freezing and still coming out fine.

being bored as I am and day dreaming about bigger better brew systems i made a crappy Microsoft paint depiction of this setup so you can see what i'm talking about. i'm interested to know peoples thoughts on this. and yes i know it would be expensive

http://img833.imageshack.us/i/fermenatorcoolingsystem.png/

fermenatorcoolingsystem.png
 
jo83ben, I think it's a good concept, just I'd use stainless tubing rather than copper. It's subject to corrosion and wort is acidic. Fermentation drops the pH a bit more.

Your idea is similar to the chill plate that's inside the Stainless Steel Specialists' fermenter that they sell with their BC-50

The beer might not freeze, as a convection current will set up in the fermenter when the chiller is operating, but you may have to regulate the temp of the freezer to prevent it. Since the result of such testing and development is beer, it's not so bad.
 
+1 to SS tubing. Make life easy and get a temp controller on your freezer and keep the glycol at 32 - 34 degrees, if it is not freezing then it can't freeze the beer and that is still plenty cold to keep a lager in check if you have adequate glycol and your fermentor is insulated.
 
ahhh....both excellent ideas. i didn't even think about the copper and corrosion, and setting the freezer at just above freezing should negate the whole freezing issue all together.

I just figured this could provide a significantly cheaper set up for glycol cooling of possible multiple fermenators even at different temps without the 5-15k cost of an actual glycol cooling unit. It does introduce some more sanitation issues regarding the tubing being coiled loosely in the fermenator, but that can be easily remedied with some good old elbow grease and good sanitizer.
 
I had thought about using an aquarium chiller to do the same thing. Select or find a large picnic cooler, modify it to accept the chiller, then just wrap the Blichmann with copper coils and pump the glycol with a small pump 8-10 GPH.

I plan to put an aquarium heater in the tank as well and controll temperature with one of these.

http://morebeer.com/view_product/16664/102282/Ranco_Digital_Two-Stage_Temperature_Controller_-_Wired

I figure my end cost will be:

Cooler - Hopefully free, worst case $60
Chiller - I've researched these and they run about $400 new
Heater - $100
Glycol - $50
Pump - $150
Copper - $160 for 200 ft, 1/4" soft drawn copper
Fittings - $40
Controller - $140

Total - $1080 I figure closer to $1400 by the time I add solenoid valves and controls for that.

Your idea sounds great, Freezer could be free, control the temperature, all you'd have to do is add a pump and the copper.
 
jo83ben, one question to contemplate is how big would the glycol reservoir need to be to cool multiple fermenters? You may have to go for a chest freezer.
 
jo83ben, one question to contemplate is how big would the glycol reservoir need to be to cool multiple fermenters? You may have to go for a chest freezer.

Yeah I was thinking the same. I just put a pic of a standard fridge/freezer combo for illustration purposes. But I would probably use a medium sized chest freezer and a large heavy food grade plastic container (like the cube style) in it. That way you could plumb the stainless tubing into it and through the freezer to the fermenter(s). I would also wrap the tubing in some foam insulation to help with efficiency. Spending a little extra on an energy star freezer could help cut down on cost too, and if you do it right you could even use the freezer's extra space for well...a freezer when you're not brewing. (that also helps sell the idea to the boss ;) ) haha
 
I had thought about using an aquarium chiller to do the same thing. Select or find a large picnic cooler, modify it to accept the chiller, then just wrap the Blichmann with copper coils and pump the glycol with a small pump 8-10 GPH.

I plan to put an aquarium heater in the tank as well and controll temperature with one of these.

http://morebeer.com/view_product/16664/102282/Ranco_Digital_Two-Stage_Temperature_Controller_-_Wired

I figure my end cost will be:

Cooler - Hopefully free, worst case $60
Chiller - I've researched these and they run about $400 new
Heater - $100
Glycol - $50
Pump - $150
Copper - $160 for 200 ft, 1/4" soft drawn copper
Fittings - $40
Controller - $140

Total - $1080 I figure closer to $1400 by the time I add solenoid valves and controls for that.

Your idea sounds great, Freezer could be free, control the temperature, all you'd have to do is add a pump and the copper.


I really like the idea of using the dual temp controller. So with this you could set upper and lower temp limits to your fermentation? Would you one of those heater wraps (like a heating pad)? It sounds like with that set up on my idea you could control the temp even more precisely.


ALSO...I was wondering if anyone has a 42 gallon blichmann fermenator and what they think of it. Or has anyone heard of small scale brew pubs utilizing a few of these as apposed to purchasing large custom (and very $$$) fermenters?
 
i'm lucky in that i decided to go into the medical field instead of brewing...which isn't necessarily lucky in itself, however she knows that I gave very serious consideration of making brewing a career and possibly starting my own someday. i told her that since i gave of brewing as a career, i still want my "own brewery" someday. so i've got the OK for my own dedicated basement brew space and dream set up someday. key word = someday. haha :mug:
 
The Blichmann is 24d x 48h. You might be able to find a fridge that could fit that. It would certainly be easier than setting up a glycol system. Maybe even cheaper if it's from CL.
 
It does introduce some more sanitation issues regarding the tubing being coiled loosely in the fermenator, but that can be easily remedied with some good old elbow grease and good sanitizer.

Coil the SS loose enough so particles won't get pinched between the coils and hit your unit with a hot oxi-clean bath and you will have no problem with cleaning things up.
 
You might be able to find a fridge that could fit that. It would certainly be easier than setting up a glycol system. Maybe even cheaper if it's from CL.

agreed, and yes you can fit the big 42 in a fridge/freezer. but to be honest its all about going the extra mile. someone else mentioned something to the tune of not understanding the desire for the complication and exspense of a glycol system, and i wrote a lengthy reply. i've copied it down below for all to enjoy. interested to see if people agree with me or am i just crazy!? or maybe drunk? :tank:

Quote:
"am curious as to what people see as the advantage of a glycol cooling process?"


Well first i must be honest and say its all about "creating" my own mini brewery. I used to want to open a real brewery, but having worked in one for a while i'm not sure its a good career path for someone who wants a family and time to do other things. so by making my own mini brewery in my basement i can try to find ways to make copies of larger brewery set ups...such as a brew sculpture, stainless conicals, and the ability to do lagering.

Building some elaborate and probably $$ glycol system really plays into my desire to design stuff, build stuff, and be creative about it. Also, if done correctly i could really create neat and professional look to it, which is a bonus. They call the blichmann fermenators blingmann, and lets face it. if i get one, i'd rather see it in all its glory out in the open rather then stuffed in a fridge. i'm not trying to sound stuck up or anything, i just know i would smile every time i saw the thing.

Also, using the glycol set up i proposed would free up extra freezer space for other things. on another site i posted this idea and it was proposed that stainless tubing be used for the glycol to prevent oxidation of the copper i originally proposed, and by using another temp controller on the freezer, you could set the temp at just above freezing to prevent beer icing up around the coiled stainless tubing thats routed in the fermenator. and in the unlikely event i actually get to do a set up like this....and the even more unlikely event that i could get more than one fermenator, i could easily expand the system with some more tubing, pumps, and temp controllers to allow for temp control on various fermentations. i don't know how well this would all work, but its possible it could even be a viable option for very small start up brew pubs lacking the cash for genuine temp controls.

hope this helps give some insight into us crazies and our glycol and no i'm not being facetious... hehe
:rockin:
 
I think I have created something similar to what you are considering, but instead of glycol I am using recirculating ice water.
 
I think I have created something similar to what you are considering, but instead of glycol I am using recirculating ice water.

This is the 5 gallon Femenator set up for cooling:


CIMG3887 (Large) by jimlebeau, on Flickr

Ice water is held in the 5 gallon Igloo cooler (same as my mash tun) and pumped by a March pump to the cooling coils installed on the lid of the Fermantor.

Ice bath:

CIMG3895 (Large) by jimlebeau, on Flickr

The pump is controlled by a Johnson Controls A419 PID set to cooling, the thermocouple is installed in a SS thermowell in the stopper.

The controller and pump:

CIMG3902 (Large) by jimlebeau, on Flickr

I made the cooling coils from 10 feet of 3/8" copper tubing:

CIMG3877 (Large) by jimlebeau, on Flickr


CIMG3879 (Large) by jimlebeau, on Flickr

Compression fittings in the lid (drilled holes in a spare corny lid) and thermowell:

CIMG3910 (Large) by jimlebeau, on Flickr

In the summer my basement pantry is in the high 70s. I find I need to replace the frozen 1/2 gallon juice jugs twice a day to maintain 68 degrees in the Fermenator during active fermentation. I have not tried lager temps yet.

So far 2 ales have been brewed with this setup, no problems. Very light corrosion of the coils occurs above the wort line but it is easily cleaned off.

I use the same A419 controller in the winter with a brewbelt resistance heater (the blue band around the fermenator) to control my temps.
 
Total - $1080 I figure closer to $1400 by the time I add solenoid valves and controls for that.[/I][/B]

This is the part where it is economically backwards to do this, IMO. A ferm chamber can be built for 200-300 bucks including temp controllers and all the fixings. CAN you do it with Glycol? Absolutely. But I just don't think it is a cost effective option unless you have multiple tanks that are too big to move and/or you need multiple tanks at different temps (depends how many, but it would appear easy to do a multi-chamber ferm chamber with a single cooling device)

It does sound like fun, but I am not sure it is truly worth it. I don't think you would necessarily save on space or efficiency considering A/C options integrated into the ferm chamber.
 
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