Mash Hopping?

I've decided to take my flavor and aroma hops and put them into the mash.

One article I've read states that while the aroma/flavor will be great etc., but there will be virtually no IBU's from these hops. It says to add 1.5x the amount you use for normaly use finishing/flavor for the amount in the mash.

It then says to calculate the IBU's that those flavor hops would have added during there 10-15 min in the boil and increase you bittering hops to compensate.

Promash sets it's default for MH to -30%IBU (and -10% for FW). What, on avg, should that setting be? Also somewhere else someone claims that it increases the IBU's, not Decreases. Though most things I've read said decreases or doesn't impart IBU's at all.

What is correct?

I'm puzzled by the concept. The flavor and aroma oils picked up in the mash will boil off within a few minutes. Am I missing something?

I'm sure I'm wrong, but this concept just seems like a waste of hops to me. *shrugs*

The aroma/flavor oils are supposed to bind to something and stay in the boil. It's supposed to give you a mellower flavor and planty of aroma.

"Observations on Mash Hopping by Marc Sedam


Every brewer knows when to add hops in the wort. You need some for the long boil to bitter the beer, some between 10-20 minutes from the end of the boil for flavor, and a handful at the end of the boil to get the intoxicating aroma into the beer. The hopheads among us even dry hop beer for that extra something in many pale ales. Oh, and of course you can add hops to the mash.
The mash?

Hops in the mash have a history in brewing. I first came upon this concept while trying to make the ultimate Berliner Weiss. Eric Schneider's article on Berliner Weiss in Brewing Techniques a few years back mentioned that aged leaf hops were often placed in the mash to aid in filtration. My attempt at the recipe came out well, but the concept of adding some hops to the mash was intriguing. What would hops do in the mash? Could you use pellets?

My first mash-hopped brew was a simple lager made using 10 pounds of pilsner malt, two ounces of Hallertauer Hersbrucker in the mash, and an ounce of Bullion in the boil for bittering. The resulting beer was shocking. It had hop aroma and flavor that I'd never been able to get in a beer before. When the beer was warmed up a bit, one whiff put me closer to a hop field than any glass ever before.

I continued to experiment with the amounts of hops to use in the mash, trying to make recipes I knew so I could subjectively predict the bitterness contributed. Pilsners, brown ales, barleywines, and pale ales - all of these styles seemed to benefit from mash hopping. A few postings to the Homebrew Digest (http://www.hbd.org) led me to Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, a homebrew shop in Canada run by Stephen Cavan. Little did I know that Stephen had been dabbling in mash hopping as well and had some information up on his website. I began to share what I was doing with other homebrewing web groups and convinced a few people to give it a shot. Many were impressed with the result. Some were not. I encouraged people to write me with their experiences and asked for as much detail on the brewing process as they could remember. Several e-mails were swapped over the next few months and some "best methods" began to emerge.
How do you mash hop?

Not all beers are worth mash hopping. But those beers that are characterized by hop flavor or aroma certainly seem to benefit. My Classic American Pilsner really shines when mash hopped. Others have tried it in a decoction and, other than a slightly increased bittering contribution of the mash hops, enjoyed the results. I have a few simple rules for converting a normally hopped beer to a mash hopped brew:

1. Replace the amount of late addition flavor and aroma hops with 1.5x the amount of mash hops. For example, if your recipe calls for an ounce of Saaz as a flavor addition and another ounce for the aroma addition, you would add three ounces of Saaz to the mash. Hops are added directly to the mash at dough-in.
2. Use pellets. I have mash hopped with leaf and with pellets and the pellets give much better results. This could be because the hop oils are more exposed in the pellets through processing.
3. Add slightly more bittering hops. Current observations indicate that mash hopping provides almost no bitterness to the finished beer. Thus when you move hops from the boil to the mash, you must compensate for the bitterness that is lost. I do this by calculating the IBUs that would have been contributed to the original recipe by the flavor and aroma hops and then increasing the bittering hop addition accordingly.
4. Sparge, boil, chill, ferment, enjoy! That's it. After adding hops to the mash, the rest of the brewing cycle proceeds as normal. Surprisingly, the hops do not get in the way of lautering. I always start the lauter slowly, but have never had a stuck mash since starting mash hopping.

Why does it work?

The short answer is that I don't know. Traditional beers generate hop flavor and aroma through late hop additions because the volatile oils that provide these properties are driven off in the boil. Mash hopping is targeting the aromatic oils and not the bittering oils. Mash hopped beers have plenty of hop flavor and aroma, yet the wort is boiled for over an hour. My main theory is that the otherwise volatile hop oils are stabilized during extended periods at mashing pH (5.2-5.5). A reason to believe this theory is found in Jean DeClerck's classic Textbook of Brewing (1957). DeClerck states that hop aromatic oils form chemical bonds at higher pH values and lower temps than found in boiling wort. The bonds which are formed are not broken during the boil; hence the permanent aromatic profile. DeClerck even suggested steeping hops in warm water. So the mash provides an attractive temperature and pH profile to allow the hop aromatic oils to form permanent bonds and making them less volatile. Even the eventual boil of the wort isn't enough to drive off the aromas. Again, this is my theory that seems to have a toehold in previous scientific observation. But this is far from the definitive answer.

I have done ten mash-hopped beers and the other feedback I've received gives a sample size of over 50 batches. Most folks report achieving a smoother hop flavor and aroma. In addition, of course, everyone gets less debris in the kettle since the hops are added to the mash and not the boil. This helps to increase wort yield and I've eked out an extra quart of wort on each batch due solely to this effect.

I have received other feedback on mash hopping from personal e-mails and public postings on the HBD. Some people have not seen a great effect from trying the process. Most of these were attributed to using too few hops in the mash. But there are still others who don't have an explanation. Other factors such as water chemistry and mash pH may play a role, but these would require further exploration.
Summary

Mash hopping isn't for every beer and it may not be financially sound for commercial breweries. But home brewers should certainly try the process once to test it out for themselves. As most of what is presented here has come from experimentation by myself and others, I'd be happy to hear about your experiences. I always appreciate feedback from those who have tried it and someday hope to have a mash-hopped beer analyzed for content to empirically determine what's happening.

This article was published on Thursday 12 February, 2004."

Sounds interesting but I'm sceptical of anything when someone says it works but I don't know why.
I can't see the point of using 50% more hops and getting less of the bite from them.

sounds interesting, certianly worth three bucks in pellet hops to give it a try...

I'll have to ask the folks over at the USDA Hop Research Lab OSU about this. They seem to know more about the chemistry of hopping and beer than just about anyone. The group developed cascade, chinook, newport, nuggett and I think willamette.

Yes, please let us know what you found out from them.

I'm guessing here that the reason they say it imparts little or no IBU's to the brew is that the hops are strained out in the lauter, thus the alpha oils never get to isomorise, though, if using pellets as advised, some ALWAYS seem to get through the strainer.

I was thinking of doing it like a first wort hop but keeping the temp about 158 for an hour in the kettle before boiling and leaving the hops in for the boil, thus getting hopefully most of the IBU's from the hops AND the benifit if mash hopping, or putting the mash hops in a hop bag in the mash, n putting those same hops back in the boil. If the aroma seems weak later on (ie it didn't work) I can add dry hops to the secondary.

My version of "dry hopping" is to boils some water and make a hop tea, letting the hops soak for 2-5 minutes then throwing hops and water into the carboy, hopefully getting those flavor/aroma oils out of the hops better than just throwing the hops straight in the carboy. Sure seems to work better (imho) so far.

I'll actually be doing a mini mash for this because I got tired of waitng for my grains for my Rye IPA (hopefully get them next week) and decided to make my Noble (hops) Pale Ale instead, but modifying the recipe to include a kilo munich malt and a half kilo of rye flakes. And changing my hops mix to account for the mash-like hopping

Wondering, how much rye flake can a kilo of munich 10 convert? How much before there just ain't enough enzymes?

I have diastic pale LME (Yes it IS a diatic LME), but I don't want to have to deal with sparging with all that in the mash too.

I'll be brewing Sunday.

I've got to say that I've tried the mash hop technique and concluded that it was a waste of perfectly good hops. Granted, my palate is not trained as well as a certified beer judge's, but I know a waste of hops(money) when I taste(or in this case don't taste) it.

Well, I'm going to give it a shot the way I said above. I do wish I could find a reference that was more based on the science of the technique. Kinda feel like someone that has been told to mash their grains but not what temp. does what.

What's next? Dry malting?

Actually it was an very Old technique that was displaced due to the economic reasons, etc.

I think I've read somewhere, I think in Designing Grear Beers by Ray Daniels that in some styles of beer, including weizen, hops were added to aid in lautering, but also that the wort was never really boiled. They would do several decoction steps that would bring the temp up, but the entire wort never came to a real boil. Hops in the mash would then make sence. But to boil after seems a waste to me I'll keep my aroma hops late in the boil, and lots of em

Well I tried it. I did basically step infusion mash. Added hops at dough in, let sit for a bit then added water that brought it up to 140, then 150, then 158 (by accident. Had company over and screwed up on my strike water temp.)

I think it has to do with PH levels preboil and lower temperatures in order for the molecular bindings to take place. Also some finer hop material (pellets) made it through the screen, as I expected and I think this is where some people notice some isomorization in the boil.

I used 2oz each of tett, haller, and saaz as mash hops. Then .75 oz each for 60 min and no other hops (well except for 1 hop pellet each at last 15 for good luck)

The wort did not taste any more bitter than I expected and there was hop flavor. Hard to tell with sweet wort but I think this will turn out well. When it's done fermenting I'll see how the aroma/flavor seems and if necessary I'll dry hop.

I think this works better with step infusion or at least holding the hops/grains at lower temps for a while before raising to starch conversion temps.

I would like to see the methods of mashing used by those than swear by mash hopping and those who have had negative results.

At least with mashing there is a lot of info on the science of how and why it works. haven't found anything definitive yet on mash hopping.

I haven't been thrilled with the results-I've added them to an infusion mash.

I realize this is a very old post, but does anyone else have additional data about mash hopping (especially about the actual results)? Taste better? Smoother? No discernible difference?

I plan to try mash hopping and first wort hopping in a couple of IPAs I have planned, but I'm especially curious about mash hopping. I know FWH approximates a 20 minute addition -- and I tried it in my last IPA with (what appeared to me, at least) some success in terms of smoothing out the overall bitterness but not diminishing any of the hop flavor. In fact, my FWH'd IPA turned out much hoppier -- and better, IMHO -- than a nearly identical recipe I made several weeks later without FWH. Obviously, there are a lot of variables here -- so this doesn't particularly mean anything significant.

Anyway -- I'm curious about mash hopping...

I am very happy you revised this thread. I would also like an update. I have first wort hopped, and found it to be very worthwhile, but not mash hopped. I am thinking of playing with the DFH60 clone recipe from byo 150 clones. I have made this and it is tasty.

I have tried this a few times and never been blown away by it. I consider it a waste of hops. All of my standard wort hopped and dry hopped beers have been far better than any of my FWH or mash hopped experiments.

I have not done a side by side of the same beer like you have though. So there are plenty of variables that could be off on my results.

It's very clear that some people on this forum refuse to even consider the possibility that mash hopping may change the flavor profile of a finished beer. However, a quick look at some of the published research shows that malt carbohydrates form complexes with xanthohumol and isoxanthohumol (see link below). I haven't been able to find definitive research on whether these carbohydrate complexes could form during the mash, but it seems possible. You can make a bitter hop tea at temperatures below boiling (158 or so...). In the hypothetical mash hopping, some of the flavoring components from the hops are released to the solution at the same time that long-chain carbohydrates are being released from the malt. If the complexes of malt carbs and hop flavonoids form during this time, it may be possible that they can survive the boil and end up in your beer, depending on the strength of the complex. A topic worthy of research, at least, and not immediately damnable, as it has been on this discussion board. Think it doesn't work? Prove it with research!

Fate of Xanthohumol and Related Prenylflavonoids from Hops to Beer
Jan F. Stevens,*† Alan W. Taylor,† Jeff E. Clawson,‡ and Max L. Deinzer†
Departments of Chemistry and Food Science and Technology, Oregon State University, Corvallis, Oregon 97331 J. Agric. Food Chem., 1999, 47 (6), pp 2421–2428
link: http://bit.ly/eDGRzL

I could see this being a great in some beers. but a stout or an IPA or any other beer style that is highly hopped it would be a waste of hops. Just like FWH works great in styles that are not highly hopped.

I mash hop in order to reduce my hop load in the kettle. I can't say for sure if it buys me much but it does save me a couple ounces of hop trub in the kettle.

I'm gonna try this technique tomorrow with my Hop Bomb - mainly to reduce the amount of hops in kettle.

It definitely helps in that respect.

I'm kind of curious, is there a ph range where mash hopping is most effective? I mean if the ph is above or below a certain point does mash hopping lose its effectiveness? It seems like that would explain why it works for some people and not for others.

I'm surprised nobody has really tested out mash hopping. I'd love to hear what a beer with strictly mash hops and bittering hops comes out like.

Mash hopping is not as effective as you would think. It takes 90 minutes of boiling water to extract the full amount of bittering units in the hop. So if you added during your 60min mash you would not extract the same amount as if you did with a 60 min boil.

it's for bittering, it's for flavor and aroma.

The aroma would boil out of the wort if you added it during the mash.

supposedly, like with first wort hopping, it binds in a way that doesn't boil off. I know it doesn't make sense, but I do know that with first wort hopping the aroma stays throughout the boil.

I have some experience recently with mash hopping and the results have been very good.

Expect 10-15% ultilization.

The quality of bitterness and aroma is very good which is all that matters really.

I think that in a highly hopped beer the effect would be wasted somewhat.

I am going to make a harvest hop IPA and am considering this method. The recipe I have was extract, and they said to make a hop tea with some of the green hops and your steeping grains. So I plan to use the wet hops in the mash. Anyone else doing this? Any favored methods? Have hops in tun, add strike water, dough in? Strike water, partial dough, add hops, finish dough? Hops on top after dough in?

I came across this thread after reading an article about must try hoppy beers. I was surprised how many of the beers listed did a mash hop, including one of my recent favorites, Ace of Spades-

3. Hopworks Organic Ace of Spades – Winning a gold medal at the 2009 Great American Beer Festival isn’t the only reason to try this phenomenal Imperial IPA from Portland’s Hopworks Urban Brewery, but it should be some indication to you just how killer it truly is. The annually released beast, available in 22-ounce bottles and on tap, serves up a boisterous 9.5% ABV and 100 IBU. A tribute to Motorhead frontman Lemmy Kilmister, the beer rocks equally as hard. Ace prominently features Amarillo, Cascade and Centennial hops, which the brewery say is added at every point of the brewing process: mash tun, first wort, kettle, and dry hop. All of the hoppy green goodness results in a beer with a huge citrus hop aroma, flavor and deep, clean bitterness. One of the finest hoppy treasures of all time, but don’t take our word for it, go snag yourself one when you can.

Click to expand...

Here is the article for reference. http://brewpublic.com/beer-releases/50-must-try-hoppy-beers/

I was thinking of doing a run of SMaSH's and I may try this technique to see what happens.

IIRC pliney is mash hopped. Seems like it would be similar to Fwh ..

I think green flash, for their palate wrecker, also hops the mash water and sparge water, too. It gives the bitterness "layers", for lack of a better term.

My friend at FatHead's in Cleveland gave me an IPA that they made with an experimental hop that they added at every point in production--mash, FWH, kettle, fermentation, and dry. Since they were added everywhere, I have no idea of the specific contribution of that one addition, but I was intrigued by the concept.

With this speculation of mash hopping has anyone made mash hop the only addition using 100% base malt to see the impact that it gives? If you do a 90+min boil you will see what is truely driven off or retained in the kettle. Like others have said I can see this working well with decoction mashes, then again the low temp/pH does catch my attention. Reading a BYO on Serria Nevadas Torpedo they state that after boil they wait till the wort is 180F before their Torpedo addition that sits for about 4 hours. At these low temps you get more flavor and aroma. Kind of on the far opposite side of mash hopping but I think it touches on the lower temperature side of hop usage.

I mash hopped, first-wort hopped, and bittered with the same, small amount of Columbus for a 120 IBU IPA. But I did not discriminate on the late aroma hops. I definitely added a bunch of those like always.

End result: It was smoother than my previous 60-90 IBU IPAs that were simply bittered or simply FWH'd. I did not think it lent anything to the aroma though... just the overall smoothness of the IPA.

i'm going to try this with my basic cream ale. 1 ounces in the mash and the usual 0.5 ounces for bittering. any effect will really shine through

I mash hopped a pilsner and it took a ton of hops. Same effect at FWH but without most of the bittering since most of the hops remained in the mash.

Does anyone have some hard-fast numbers on how long at what temp range it takes to achieve this sort of hop profile (mash hopping)? Ie. if I FWH but do a very slow runoff of second (and possibly third) runnings, the hops could spend upwards of 30-45 minutes at temps in the 150's before heating up to a boil. I'm guessing this would change the profile versus a "typical" FWH which only spends 10-15 minutes in that temp range while heating up to boil, right?

Isomerization of alpha acids is not occuring below 175-180 F, whether you're mash hopping or first wort hopping. When you exceed 180 F, you are beginning to extract bitterness via alpha acid isomerization.

*Mash hops are usually added at mash temps, e.g. 145-160 F
*FWH are usually first added at sparge temps and greater (but lower than a full rolling boil), e.g. 170-185 F
*Traditional boil hops are usually first added as soon as the wort reaches a full rolling boil, e.g. 208-212 F

For a multitude of individual brewing reasons that I don't really want to start a debate over, I am a firm believer in the last method for all American IIPAs and most American IPAs and hop heavy styles. Though, it is fine by me to Mash Hop or FWH plenty of other beer styles.