Lager Decoction Help

Hi All.

I am planning to do my first lager, the Pilsner Urquell clone from BYO magazine and plan to do:

1. A single decoction with a rest at 131F (15minutes) and 155F (45 minutes) as per the recipe.
2. It states to ferment at 55F with WLP800 or wyeast 2001

I am looking for some tips on the lagering process and the pitching rate people use to successfully do a lager. I would be doing a double batch ending with 11g, so I am looking for:

1. Recommended starter size
2. Details on the lagering process (recipe doesn't give any);
a. i.e. lager for 1 month at 32-35F after the ferment is completed?
b. how long does the ferment take at 55F? (just ball park so i know how long I need to maintain that temp)
3. Soft water is reccomended for this recipe, which I do not have. What is the best/cheapest source people use for this (I will need ~20 gallons).

Any general tips or anecdotal experience would be great. this is my first lager, and my first decoction, and I am really looking forward to it. Thanks for your help in advance!

ive done 3 lagers and you sound a bit more technical than i can get, but lemme feed you my acquired knowledge, since i really had to search long and hard to learn lagering techniques...and of course i'm still learning it.

starter- they say it's necessary, and maybe it is, but i just tend to smack a wyeast lager pack overnight and pitch it directly once it's fully swollen. i cracked my first dunkel last night and it was quite yeasty for what its worth without a real starter.

lager process- 2 weeks primary at 55 or so, then transfer- transferring is a good idea for lagers. then what i have done is lower the temperature gradually down to as close to 32 as possible for 2 months or so. then (and this is something i do that has worked for me) i bottle, prime, and let sit at room temperature for 24 hours. this will wake the yeast up, carb, eat any diacetyl. then put it back in the fridge at 50-55 for 3-4 weeks, maybe more.

soft water- ive never actually altered my water because that's a little too far into chemistry for me to do just yet. but what i've read states that it's so much easier to add than subtract **** in the water. so if you want to do a science experiment, get distilled water and add from there rather than using your bleachy ny water and subtracting.

decoction- again, never done it, but at my last homebrew meeting we were talking about it, and someone was talking about doing some type of sawing decoction method as a way to break down your starches into simple fermenantable sugars. the lower temperature stimulates alpha amylase, which will break down simpler starches into sugar. then you raise the temperature 10 degrees or so and that stimulates beta amylase, which breaks down larger starches into simple starches. he said that while you'll never read about this in a book, if you keep sawing back and forth between alpha and betas, you'll get a much better efficiency. but again, i've always had no problems not doing it...just throwing that ramble into the mix.

lagers are a little tougher in my opinion, especially with the temperature control, but they produce a much crisper, less estery, and definitely a much more palatable beer for the BMC drinkers of the world.

Thanks hobobrewery - I try to aim small/ miss small - so apologize if I came off a bit sterile

I will have to make a starter simply based on the fact that I am too cheap to buy two packs of yeast Since I am doing a double batch it sounds like in the least I would need to make a 1 liter starter - but I have really that people make larger starters for lagers. Sounds like that hasn't been a need for you.

Thanks for the ferment info too. So sounds like ~2 weeks at 55F then I could rack into two kegs and put into my yeast refridge which is set to about 32F. From there it would be 2 months. That is great news because it means I have to work on maintaining that 55F for roughly 2 weeks, which I might be able to do with a swamp cooler in my cellar versus using my yeast refridge. For the diacetyl aspect - any suggestions on how I would handle that if I plan to keg and carb with CO2?

I typically don't mess with my water - I am on a well and have 25grains hard water and it usually makes great beer. But this recipe specifically called for it so I am trying to decide if it is worth it or not.

The decoction I am doing more because I have yet to try it, it seems pretty easy despite the hype. And I have heard and read it increases the malty character, which would be especially desired in a german/czech lager like this one. Any increase in efficiency is icing on the cake, but that is not why I am doing the decoction.

HoboBrewery said:

decoction- again, never done it, but at my last homebrew meeting we were talking about it, and someone was talking about doing some type of sawing decoction method as a way to break down your starches into simple fermenantable sugars. the lower temperature stimulates alpha amylase, which will break down simpler starches into sugar. then you raise the temperature 10 degrees or so and that stimulates beta amylase, which breaks down larger starches into simple starches. he said that while you'll never read about this in a book, if you keep sawing back and forth between alpha and betas, you'll get a much better efficiency. but again, i've always had no problems not doing it...just throwing that ramble into the mix.

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No offense Hobo but this paragraph is very wrong. The 'alpha' and 'beta' are reversed and you can't really 'saw' the mash temp like that (well, you can...if you like spinning your wheels). Once you increase the temp much above 150-ish the beta-amylase starts to denature and doesn't work anymore (it's gradual, not ON/OFF like a switch).

Cidah,
Decoctions are not that difficult if you're already decent at hitting mash temps/etc. Once you've done a couple they are quite easy. But for very new all-grain brewers they can be a recipe for a very long brewday. The first problem I see with that mash schedule is the 15 minute rest at 131* F. How do you plan to: pull the decoction, heat decoction to conversion temp without scorching, rest the decoction until it's mostly converted, heat to a boil without scorching, boil for x minutes, and then add it back; all in 15 minutes? Also, going from 131* F to 155* F is going to require a big decoction.

Try the Mr Malty pitching rate calculator but I can tell you right now you're not going to like the answer, it will be a ginormous starter.

Check out Kaiser's Fermenting Lagers page at Braukaiser.com. Great info there. He has a video on decoctions and a decoction mashing article as well. Good luck.

My handy dandy yeast pitching sheet tells me that I should be shooting for 378 million cells/ 21.4g or nearly a 3 liter starter for a 10G batch of 1.050 wort.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Cidah,
Decoctions are not that difficult if you're already decent at hitting mash temps/etc. Once you've done a couple they are quite easy. But for very new all-grain brewers they can be a recipe for a very long brewday. The first problem I see with that mash schedule is the 15 minute rest at 131* F. How do you plan to: pull the decoction, rest the decoction until it's mostly converted, heat to a boil without scorching, boil for x minutes, and then add it back; all in 15 minutes? Also, going from 131* F to 155* F is going to require a big decoction.

Try the Mr Malty pitching rate calculator but I can tell you right now you're not going to like the answer, it will be a ginormous starter.

Check out Kaiser's Fermenting Lagers page at Braukaiser.com. Great info there. He has a video on decoctions and a decoction mashing article as well. Good luck.

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I figured this would lengthen the brew day for sure (thanks for the warning). I have dialed in my brew equipment and do hit my mash temps routinely - so I believe I am ready for the decoction challenge. My buddy and I pulled of 2 10G batches in 6 hours last weekend on my electric system in fact!

I used brewsmith to set up the decoction volumes (but the temps are from BYO) and I think it was something like a 14 quart decoction, which is big, luckily I have a spare 22qt aluminum pressure cooker I planned to use for heating it.

Good point about heatind that 14qts up in 15 minutes to a boil.... I do have a big bayou classic 180K burner. I would have to stir constantly to avoid scorching.

Would you recommend following another decoction schedule?

thanks for that link!

I wanted to start my starter now, because I was thinking that it would be something like 6L for the batch if a regular starter would be 3L by mr. malty for a regular ale




Th

thanks spanish. it was at a homebrew meeting that i learned this. in order to enter the doors of my club you have to be at least 8 beers deep, hence my jumbled confusion. in over my head on that part of the topic. thought it was interesting he said it, until i heard he probably spends 5 hours varying the temperatures to get better efficiency. i'm also about 1 step 1 hour and move.

SpanishCastleAle said:

How do you plan to: pull the decoction, heat decoction to conversion temp without scorching, rest the decoction until it's mostly converted, heat to a boil without scorching, boil for x minutes, and then add it back; all in 15 minutes? Also, going from 131* F to 155* F is going to require a big decoction.

Click to expand...

Just curious after rereading this. I assumed the process would be:
1. pull 14 quarts
2. bring to boil
3. add back to main mash until you bring temp up to 155F

Sounds like there is more to it based on your description.

TBH Hobo, if you do almost anything (or...nothing, just let it sit) to your mash for 5 hours you'll probably increase efficiency. Grain is cheap, I don't worry about high efficiency (consistent efficiency, yes). So what if I have to add another pound of $1-something malt.

Cidah,
you want the decoction to be at least somewhat converted before you boil it. Read Kaiser's Decoction mashing article and watch the videos. They'll help immensely.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Cidah,
you want the decoction to be at least somewhat converted before you boil it. Read Kaiser's Decoction mashing article and watch the videos. They'll help immensely.

Click to expand...

Ok will chew through it and get back. Thanks!

+1 on the grain is cheap I am hoping the decoction will make a superior lager

CidahMastah said:

Just curious after rereading this. I assumed the process would be:
1. pull 14 quarts
2. bring to boil
3. add back to main mash until you bring temp up to 155F

Sounds like there is more to it based on your description.

Click to expand...

Indeed. Between steps 1 & 2, you're going to bring the decoction to sacch temps to convert before bringing up to a boil. That's only for the decoction(s) prior to your main sacch rest.

Watch Kaiser's decoction mashing videos; they helped me a great deal when I was starting out making German/Czech lagers.

TB

CidahMastah said:

I am hoping the decoction will make a superior lager

Click to expand...

You'll get differing opinions on that for sure. Best way to find out is to try it yourself and compare. I enjoy brewing so it's not like it's some huge inconvenience to me.

SpanishCastleAle said:

You'll get differing opinions on that for sure. Best way to find out is to try it yourself and compare. I enjoy brewing so it's not like it's some huge inconvenience to me.

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essentially why I am doing this - I plan on doing a decoction lager, then the same recipe again with a single infusion and see if I note a real difference. Absolutely worth trying once

Tiber_Brew said:

Indeed. Between steps 1 & 2, you're going to bring the decoction to sacch temps to convert before bringing up to a boil. That's only for the decoction(s) prior to your main sacch rest.

Watch Kaiser's decoction mashing videos; they helped me a great deal when I was starting out making German/Czech lagers.

TB

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Ok so the videos won't play for me - will have to try later.

My interpretation was that you:

1. heat your strike water and dough in to 133F for 15-20 minutes (protein rest).
2. Once you get your 133F protein rest started, take out your decoction and start to heat the volume up to a boil.
3. Once boiling, add back into the main mash while stiring to bring the main mash temp up to 155F (45 minutes sacch rest).
4. Check for conversion
5. Pull out decoction volume needed for mash out and bring to boil for 10-30 minutes. Add decoction back in to reach 165-170F.
6. Batch sparge
7. Add more strike water to rinse grain bed and acheive preboil volume.


Am I missing something here?

Recommendation for the 10-30 minute boil time for pilsner urquell? I assume 10-15 minute boil since it is not a dark brew?

I shoudl not I will have a brew partner on this one as well. Probably one guy stiring and temping and one guy adding decoction

I'll second (or third) the recommendations to read Kaiser's info. Good stuff.
One thing to keep in mind is that, I believe, when bringing your decoctions up to a boil, you want to do it somewhat gradually. Perhaps the 15 minutes they call for is before pulling the decoction.

Did my first decoction a few weeks ago. Just transfered it to secondary yesterday. Here was my basic process: first-decoction-overshot-gravity
though looking at my scriblles from that day, I think I might have boiled the first decoction for 10 minutes and done the rest at 155 for 20 minutes.

Made 3 quart starter with 2 vials of yeast. Pitched at 50 degrees (ambient). Visible activity started at about 24 hours and dropped off after 7 days. I checked gravity and started the d-rest (60-65 degrees) at day 10. Due to other obligations, the d-rest actually wound up being 4 days. Transferred to secondary, and am now in the process of dropping the temp over a couple of days to lager.

Chris - is it necessary to delay the addition of carapils and specialty malts?

CidahMastah said:

Ok so the videos won't play for me - will have to try later.

My interpretation was that you:

1. heat your strike water and dough in to 133F for 15-20 minutes (protein rest).
2. Once you get your 133F protein rest started, take out your decoction and start to heat the volume up to a boil.
3. Once boiling, add back into the main mash while stiring to bring the main mash temp up to 155F (45 minutes sacch rest).
4. Check for conversion
5. Pull out decoction volume needed for mash out and bring to boil for 10-30 minutes. Add decoction back in to reach 165-170F.
6. Batch sparge
7. Add more strike water to rinse grain bed and acheive preboil volume.


Am I missing something here?

Recommendation for the 10-30 minute boil time for pilsner urquell? I assume 10-15 minute boil since it is not a dark brew?

I shoudl not I will have a brew partner on this one as well. Probably one guy stiring and temping and one guy adding decoction

Click to expand...

Step two isn't quite right. When you pull any decoction from a sub-sacch rest temp, you want to hold your decoction at 150F or so for about 20 minutes or more, then continue to heat it to a boil.

I boil decoctions for 10 minutes when making pilseners, and the color seems spot on. I also do a 120 min boil with FWH. Color pretty much matches Urquell.

Also note that your first decoction(s) prior to your main sacch rest should be thick since the enzymes needed for conversion are water soluble. If you boil too much of your mash water with your decoction, you'll denature some of your valuable enzymes. However, since they're no longer needed after your full conversion is complete, you can pull a much thinner decoction for your mash out. More water will mean less volume to boil to raise the mash temp since water transfers heat better than grain.

TB

Tiber_Brew said:

Step two isn't quite right. When you pull any decoction from a sub-sacch rest temp, you want to hold your decoction at 150F or so for about 20 minutes or more, then continue to heat it to a boil.
TB

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Is this 20 minute rest at 150F an adaptation for our highly modified malts?

This simply doesn't make sense to me since there was no way (back in the day) that a traditional decoction could have accomplished this feat without a thermometer. As I understood it, they took out decoctions and boiled them so they could achieve consistent mash temps for each step, based on how much volume they pulled out and how much they put back in.

If the links on his site don't work just go to Youtube and search: 'Kaiser decoction'. I just tried that and it worked.

CidahMastah said:

Is this 20 minute rest at 150F an adaptation for our highly modified malts?

This simply doesn't make sense to me since there was no way (back in the day) that a traditional decoction could have accomplished this feat without a thermometer. As I understood it, they took out decoctions and boiled them so they could achieve consistent mash temps for each step, based on how much volume they pulled out and how much they put back in.

Click to expand...

That is the way I understand it. They did not use modified malts like most homebrewers do today. Kaiser's videos explain this in further detail.

TB

I can't get the first video to load, but I watched this series about a month or two ago, but more for backstory and it just looked like a lot of work.

I might be turning away from the decoction. The more I look at it, the more it looks like I might not be interested. It just looks like there are a lot of added steps and this isn't a traditional decoction. It also seems like there is a lot of variation and not a lot of consensus on exact timing and how to execute. I guess I just need more details before I decide. I am going to start building my starter and that will take a week or two to step up and decant. If I can't find a good reason to do this, with accurate process I might just try single infusion at 155F.

I hate to do it, but I also don't see consistency in process, so I can't rationalize this being better than single infusion.

I will keep digging, and I appreciate your help!

For me when I look at this you are doing an infusion mash before you decoct for 20 minutes. Then leaving enzymes from the mash water to do an infusion mash when you bring the decoct back to the mash water that still has the active enzymes.

i.e. why not just do a step mash at 133F (15min), bring up to 155f(45minutes) and draw out a volume of grain/ water and boil for 10-30 minutes and add back to your mash to reach 165-170F for mash out?

That would probably accomplish the same thing, just less steps. I guess I am just questioning the validity of the decoction if you are putting in some of those "infusion" like steps.

CidahMastah said:

For me when I look at this you are doing an infusion mash before you decoct for 20 minutes. Then leaving enzymes from the mash water to do an infusion mash when you bring the decoct back to the mash water that still has the active enzymes.

i.e. why not just do a step mash at 133F (15min), bring up to 155f(45minutes) and draw out a volume of grain/ water and boil for 10-30 minutes and add back to your mash to reach 165-170F for mash out?

That would probably accomplish the same thing, just less steps. I guess I am just questioning the validity of the decoction if you are putting in some of those "infusion" like steps.

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Do you mean stepping from 130 to 155 by some other means than a decoction? Then just use a single decoction for mash out?

Tiber_Brew said:

Do you mean stepping from 130 to 155 by some other means than a decoction? Then just use a single decoction for mash out?

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Yeah like direct fired MT. Use strike water to get to 133F then rest; direct fire to 155f and hold 45 minutes, pull decoction from mash and boil and return to achieve mash out.

CidahMastah said:

Yeah like direct fired MT. Use strike water to get to 133F then rest; direct fire to 155f and hold 45 minutes, pull decoction from mash and boil and return to achieve mash out.

Click to expand...

I've done that before, and it works, but it's not quite like the real thing. If you do that, make sure to pull a thick decoction, and maybe boil for 20 mins. That could get you close. The advantage to this method is that you don't have to concern yourself with hitting the right sacch temp from a decoction (that was the most difficult part for me until I built the new electric rig).

TB

Tiber_Brew said:

I've done that before, and it works, but it's not quite like the real thing. If you do that, make sure to pull a thick decoction, and maybe boil for 20 mins. That could get you close. The advantage to this method is that you don't have to concern yourself with hitting the right sacch temp from a decoction (that was the most difficult part for me until I built the new electric rig).

TB

Click to expand...

Maybe I will cheat a bit like that the first time through.

I have an electric rig, but my herms (planned) isn't set up so I just use the element for heating strike and boiling. I am all set up for herms for the most part - just need a pump!

By thick decoction do you mean to use the strainer method like in the decoction videos - I remember he pulls the grain out first to the pot, then adds mash water to get the volume using a strainer.

Yep, you got it!

Thanks for the tips - I think i will do this "modified" decoction for the mash out. I will try to cook it for about 20 minutes. Now I just have to build my starter

appreciate the banter!

CidahMastah said:

My handy dandy yeast pitching sheet tells me that I should be shooting for 378 million cells/ 21.4g or nearly a 3 liter starter for a 10G batch of 1.050 wort.

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That number sounds suspiciously low.

CidahMastah said:

Thanks for the tips - I think i will do this "modified" decoction for the mash out. I will try to cook it for about 20 minutes. Now I just have to build my starter

appreciate the banter!

Click to expand...

No problem! Hope it turns out!

Report back if you remember.

944play said:

That number sounds suspiciously low.

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That would be for a standard batch of non lager beer. I assume based on reading wikis I should be at least doubling that number to 6 quarts starter. For 10G batch - do you think that sounds a little better?

378,000,000 =/= 700,000,000,000

944play said:

378,000,000 =/= 700,000,000,000

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Ha Cripes!


According to the mr. malty that is 9 liters of starter with an aggressve growth!! I had better just brew a batch of beer and wash my yeast!! This is getting out of control

Is this madness really necessary?

I like to brew a low-gravity 4-gallon batch with 2 packs of yeast, direct-pitched, to grow up a slug of lager yeast. Takes longer than a starter, but you get beer....

944play said:

I like to brew a low-gravity 4-gallon batch with 2 packs of yeast, direct-pitched, to grow up a slug of lager yeast. Takes longer than a starter, but you get beer....

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any recc. recipe in the 4g size that uses the lager yeast? I would love to have it, because I would much rather get beer, than brew a beers worth oof crap wort starter

CidahMastah said:

any recc. recipe in the 4g size that uses the lager yeast?

Click to expand...

You can scale down a 5-gallon recipe by 20%. Or take 8lbs of your favorite base malt and 2oz of your favorite aroma hop and SMaSH 'em together....

CidahMastah said:

Ha Cripes!


According to the mr. malty that is 9 liters of starter with an aggressve growth!! I had better just brew a batch of beer and wash my yeast!! This is getting out of control

Is this madness really necessary?

Click to expand...

Tiber_Brew and others answered some of the specific questions, but if you need more help just let us know! I came in a bit late. I only do decoctions a few times a year now, but I have a good grasp on technique and the "hows and whys" because lagers were my favorite styles a while back.

The second starter size sounds far more reasonable for a lager, I hate to say! If you want to do a beer and then simply pitch on the cake, I think a simple 5 gallon cream ale recipe in the 1.043 range could give you a nice amount of yeast for this lager.

A couple of other tips- pitch cold and allow the wort to raise UP to fermentation temperatures. Pitch the yeast a few degrees cooler. For example, decant the spent wort on the yeast and then hold it at 40 degrees in the fridge, and when the wort is chilling take it out. Chill the wort to about 45 degrees, and pitch the yeast at a few degrees lower. Then set it in your lagering chamber and allow it to rise to 50 degrees for fermentation. This gives you a great lager, and often means that a diacetyl rest isn't even needed (although it won't hurt to do one).

Yooper said:

A couple of other tips- pitch cold and allow the wort to raise UP to fermentation temperatures. Pitch the yeast a few degrees cooler. For example, decant the spent wort on the yeast and then hold it at 40 degrees in the fridge, and when the wort is chilling take it out. Chill the wort to about 45 degrees, and pitch the yeast at a few degrees lower. Then set it in your lagering chamber and allow it to rise to 50 degrees for fermentation. This gives you a great lager, and often means that a diacetyl rest isn't even needed (although it won't hurt to do one).

Click to expand...

+1

The trick to brewing great lagers is more in the fermentation than any other aspect. Get the pitching rate, pitching temp, fermentation temp, diacetyl rest (if necessary), and lagering down, and you'll get a great beer.

...of course, nailing a good double decoction doesn't hurt either, but don't worry about that as much as the fermentation.

Good luck!
TB

Yooper said:

Tiber_Brew and others answered some of the specific questions, but if you need more help just let us know! I came in a bit late. I only do decoctions a few times a year now, but I have a good grasp on technique and the "hows and whys" because lagers were my favorite styles a while back.

The second starter size sounds far more reasonable for a lager, I hate to say! If you want to do a beer and then simply pitch on the cake, I think a simple 5 gallon cream ale recipe in the 1.043 range could give you a nice amount of yeast for this lager.

A couple of other tips- pitch cold and allow the wort to raise UP to fermentation temperatures. Pitch the yeast a few degrees cooler. For example, decant the spent wort on the yeast and then hold it at 40 degrees in the fridge, and when the wort is chilling take it out. Chill the wort to about 45 degrees, and pitch the yeast at a few degrees lower. Then set it in your lagering chamber and allow it to rise to 50 degrees for fermentation. This gives you a great lager, and often means that a diacetyl rest isn't even needed (although it won't hurt to do one).

Click to expand...

Thanks Yooper - do you subscribe to the decoction method when you do do your lagers (better taste, etc)? I had read from palmer about the cold pitching, so thanks for reinforcing that because I was still on the fence.

I sort of feel I need to explore each style and lager is the next one on my hit list

Looks like I am going to do batch of cream ale or similar (to get my starter).

CidahMastah said:

Thanks Yooper - do you subscribe to the decoction method when you do do your lagers (better taste, etc)? I had read from palmer about the cold pitching, so thanks for reinforcing that because I was still on the fence.

I sort of feel I need to explore each style and lager is the next one on my hit list

Looks like I am going to do batch of cream ale or similar (to get my starter).

Click to expand...

Yes, for most lagers I will do a decoction. Some are just "nice" to do, like in an Oktoberfest, but I think it's absolutely required for a Bohemian pilsner! For some lagers, you could throw in some melanoidin malt and call it good, but NOT in a BoPils.