I've tried to do the open air spontaneous fermentation thing several times and my results have always been dire. So dire in fact, that I refused to even taste the result. Of course, I lived in the middle of a large city at the time and had two huge dogs and two cats. So, yeah, unsurprising. I would like to try it again though. I wonder what kind of results I would get from a juniper and pinon forest? I would be willing to bet that there is several types of yeast which live on juniper berries.
Howto: Capture Wild Yeast
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Being in a relationship with someone who has animals I would say it's definately them harboring the smelly, unsavory critters. Thankfully we haven't moved in together. Have you tried it out in open air? That would probably work better, but you'll get "big city" terrior out of it.
Oh, and did you know juniper berries aren't berries at all but a pine cone that's tried to keep up with the cool kids by fusing together to look like a berry? This is a classic example of vegitative peer pressure.
Oh, and did you know juniper berries aren't berries at all but a pine cone that's tried to keep up with the cool kids by fusing together to look like a berry? This is a classic example of vegitative peer pressure.
KingBrianI
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Well when I brewed my British Special Dark a few weeks ago I took a rather large hydrometer sample and instead of drinking it like usual, I left it in a glass in the kitchen uncovered. The next day I put aluminum foil over the top and like that it has been since. In a couple days, it had developed a bit of what looked like yeast around the edges on the top but when I smelled it, it had quite a funk. The ring of gunk has since given way to what appears to be a small kreuzen and the smell has become strongly belgian. It's all very exciting.
I didn't know that about the juniper berries. I'd still be willing bet that yeast live on them though. Well not too much money...
Anyway, I am going to try another open air fermentation but I'm going to do it away from the city.
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It starting to get warm here in Iowa. Today is a little breezy might be good day to wing it. I'm gonna use my AGAR method where I can watch surface growth in a controlled environment.
I'm gonna take a shot at becoming a Yeast Hunter. :rockin:
I'm gonna take a shot at becoming a Yeast Hunter. :rockin:
KingBrianI
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Take pictures if you would. It would be cool to follow along with the progress of growth on the plates.
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Funny that you stated this....
This strain will be appropriately called: Myeast-50327
My Yeast & Zip Code.
Collection Area & Method: Agar ajar on my deck. I'm keeping the lid in a zip lock so it stays clean.
Pictures
KingBrianI
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That's great. I'll be looking forward to updates.
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Yes - I used light dme. http://brewiki.org/Yeast/Culturing#head-062dddbe5c00d419ef9f0931a737f4bfeaca3394
My first open exposure was exactly 60 minutes. I have my closed sample incubating at 68F. I'll peek at in about 24hrs.
Danek
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Looks good! As a non-microbiologist, what's the advantage of using agar rather than normal wort?
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Let say I go out and collect a sample of yeast and its possible get some mold too along with the yeast.
If I have the agar sample I can watch surface growth right on the agar. The agar specimen is a hard DME jelly. DME boiled with agar.
Look at this picture. The white streaks are yeast and other gray/green stuff is mold.
I can use a sterile loop (SS wire heated via flame) to lift off some yeast to place into a 25 or 50ml starter. Then start stepping it up to a larger size.
If I used a jar of wort I could get both mold & yeast. The fermented sample might be infected or plain nasty. Its possible that I could be just fine as well.
The difference is that with AGAR I can select what I want to put in a starter. Mainly to avoid mold and have more control.
ftlstrings
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This makes for a great/easy way to store yeast cultures too. Just take the yeast colonies you want (without any agar) and store them in deionized/distilled water in sterile tubes.
You know that you are getting yeast without any other 'bugs'
~M~
You know that you are getting yeast without any other 'bugs'
~M~
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That is what I do, but not distilled or DI. I use tap water that is sterilized. Stored in test tubes.
No growth so far. I'm wondering if I got anything in the 60 minute open time. I will wait another 24 then take another go at collecting something. I'll increase the time to 4 hours.
Whatever I do it won't be over night. I don't want the condensation.
I wonder if there is a way around the condensation? Take it in every night?
Danek
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Cool! Thanks for the explanation.
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Yes - Hopefully it take only an evening/afternoon.
KingBrianI
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Schlenkerla, have you considered using a loop to innoculate a plate with wild samples. For instance, I was thinking about using a loop to collect some nectar from a bloom on a meyer lemon tree I have to see if there were any wild yeasts living in there.
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No, I haven't. That might be another way to do this. Gonna have to think about that one...
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UPDATE: Still no visible signs of growth. I'm gonna do a 4 hour exposure this morning. Its a bit cool now; ~34F @ 8:37AM should get to about 50F by noon.
Grimsawyer
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I read somewhere that "Way back then..." "they" would put grapes in their concoction to attract bugs. Flies, etc... would bring the yeast to their hooch. Not sure what kind of alcohol they were making, where in the world they did this, or what bug they were trying to attract, I just remember that tidbit of info.
Actually the yeast lives on the skin of the grapes and this is what ferments the hooch. You probably don't want actual insects in your beer. Yeast lives on the skins of most fruit.
brewmonger
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If you ever harvest grapes at a vineyard, you'll find that there are already insects living inside the grape clusters. They generally don't survive the fermentation and pressing.
You'll also notice how there's a sort of fine white dust on the skins of many of the grapes. That's the wild yeast.
You'll also notice how there's a sort of fine white dust on the skins of many of the grapes. That's the wild yeast.
Beau815
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You were DEF locked up for a while huh? lol
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I have yeast growth. :rockin: I snapped one picture. Here it is.
There are a few black specs inside, I don't know if its mold or debris. If they don't get bigger its debris.
To me it looks like debris, but only time will tell. (you can see the dots) My fingers are crossed for "No black growth".
I think this will be tart or sour beer. It smells like it a bit.
I think a small belgian/german wheat beer will be in my future plans.
I'll keep you guys posted.
There are a few black specs inside, I don't know if its mold or debris. If they don't get bigger its debris.
To me it looks like debris, but only time will tell. (you can see the dots) My fingers are crossed for "No black growth".
I think this will be tart or sour beer. It smells like it a bit.
I think a small belgian/german wheat beer will be in my future plans.
I'll keep you guys posted.
Schlenkeria - Great stuff, I've been watching with interest.
I've been thinking of doing something similar but rather than using agar to capture the beasties, I've been thinking of doing the more traditional thing with wort and then plating the resulting growth onto an agar 'petri dish.' I think this might lower the chances of picking up undesirable microorganisms, such as mold and bacteria, and the variety of different bugs growing in your wild beer might separate out to form different colonies on the agar plate. Could be wrong though.
I've been thinking of doing something similar but rather than using agar to capture the beasties, I've been thinking of doing the more traditional thing with wort and then plating the resulting growth onto an agar 'petri dish.' I think this might lower the chances of picking up undesirable microorganisms, such as mold and bacteria, and the variety of different bugs growing in your wild beer might separate out to form different colonies on the agar plate. Could be wrong though.
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ericd - Would you say that is bacteria or yeast or both? I was thinking it mainly yeast. It was pretty cool to collect bacteria between 34-50F.
I'm guessing that it has some brett or something for the sour/tart smell.
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I did this in jar which is a really a plate or slant. Its just a big mofo of slant. This jar was my surplus slant media. When I made my slants I put the DME/AGAR leftover in the jar and pressure cooked the sucker for 30 minutes.
Up until last Friday this sucker was sterile. It was open for 1hr & 4hrs.
I'm hoping this is yeast with some blend of something else. Like that of a heffe or weisse.
I was thinking that the wort would be a little more resilient against undesirable infections than the agar would be. Once the wild fermentation is going then we plate the good stuff.
As far blending it with domesticated yeasts, you'll have to see what the flavor profile is like. It's been my experience with wild Sachs that they are fairly estery. Blending them with a yeast which produces a lot of esters, such as a heffe, would be fairly pointless. But I am sure that these things vary wildly, so you'll jst have to play it by ear (tongue?).
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I never consider blending it at all. Use it as is on a small 3 gal batch was my plan.
I was using the plate so I could pick off the yeast with a loop to add to a starter. Since you mentioned it, a 2nd plate would not be bad idea either.
I've inoculated several small starters with only a dipped loop in the slant & starter.
It can be done either way.
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How about explaining what you mean?
Heh, OK. I misunderstood about the blending thing.
What I was trying to get at with the starter bit was to use normal wort as the initial bug capturing mechanism since wort is (I think, could be wrong) a little more resilient against bad type infections than agar would be. Since you would be scooping out the obviously yeastie bits to build up from, this does not matter for you. Then I would plate the result on agar and examine what colonies take hold, since there should be a variety of yeasts and bacteria living in the wild stuff. These guys might (again could be wrong) form separate colonies which might be identifiable, as at least different, by eye. I was thinking about getting a microscope, actually, to help with this.
So just to clarify, I wasn't meaning my comments to be a criticism for your technique, I think what you're doing will work just dandy as long as you are careful. What I had in mind was a different goal than just inoculating the wort but to give a possible idea about the number of different types of bugs and their rough identity.
Hope that's slightly clearer.
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First off, I didn't take it as negative criticism.
You raise a good point that there could be more than one strain. I hadn't considered this.
My reason for using a plate is so I can selectively take surface growth. Avoiding mold if noticed. In wort you have what have unless you are skimming or lifting off leftover krausen. You don't know what you are getting.
I think the chances of initial infection are the same in either one. (If you use the same container) The hops in wort acts as a preservative later on in the process. The agar forces the growth to be on the surface. Unvented slants will force growth underneath the top surface.
I was hoping to be able to select a small growth patch off the media for inoculation.
I also think more than just yeast can grow on top of the wort. With a solid media it won't mix easily. It remains rather localized.
I'm not micro-biologist. This is just how I rationalized what I think would work.
I think a two step slant making might be good idea or a multiple slant streaking. 1:1 or 1:Many
Also note that Schlenkerla is growing the yeast on DME agar which is just wort basically, minus hops, mixed with agar (a neutral gelling agent). It's different than the 'agar' used in bio labs which is really blood agar.
Adding hops wouldn't be a bad idea, hmmm....
Adding hops wouldn't be a bad idea, hmmm....
RBlagojevich
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Before i started brewing beer, I used to make mead, cider, and cyser (half mead/half cider) from wild yeasts. I used to leave honey-water out in a bowl under some cheesecloth, until it got foamy. Then I'd pitch it. The results varied, but were always pretty funky. I found that aging was key -- a batch that tasted strange would magically transform into a delicious drink after some months of aging. Alcohol got pretty strong in these brews, and I noticed cinnamon/clove phenols, tart lactic acid flavors, and fruit.
I think what i was getting was a mix of various yeasts and lactic bacteria. The unknown factor is how far these yeasts can attenuate your wort... They can eat stuff our regular beer yeasts can't. It seems like a good strategy is to add them to your secondary carboy and wait a good long time, until they seem to have finished off all the sugars they can process. then bottle. I think I might make a batch like this myself!
I think what i was getting was a mix of various yeasts and lactic bacteria. The unknown factor is how far these yeasts can attenuate your wort... They can eat stuff our regular beer yeasts can't. It seems like a good strategy is to add them to your secondary carboy and wait a good long time, until they seem to have finished off all the sugars they can process. then bottle. I think I might make a batch like this myself!
On a related note, I was talking to a guy about his mead making and how he would ferment his mead would be by using unpasteurized honey and not excessively heating the mead, just enough to dissolve the honey. Evidently there are wild yeast which live in raw honey.
It might be interesting to do this to ferment a beer or use a hybrid approach similar to what you mention. Dissolve raw honey in water, leave out to pick up beasties and use both the yeast found in the raw honey and the others to ferment.
Must brew more.
