Banana Flavors in Hefeweizen

I brewed my first hefeweizen on March 5th. I think the yeast's banana-like flavoring is a little overwhelming with this and was wondering if this will improve with time. Any advice from anyone?

Recipe as follows:
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5 lbs Pilsner Malt
4 lbs German Wheat Malt
1 lbs Munich Malt

2.4 oz Hallertau hopps:
1.6 oz for 90 minutes
0.8 oz at flame out

Wyeast 3068
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Procedure:
Mash grains at 155 degrees. Boil 90 minutes.
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OG = 1.055
FG = 1.005
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Fermentation schedule:

Primary: 1 week
Racked to secondary on 2006-03-11
Secondary: 2 weeks
Racked to keg on 2006-03-18
Keg COndition: 4 days
Cold Keg Condition: 3 weeks
Drinking: 2006-03-08

Banana fades fairly fast.

What was your fermentation temperature? Banana is usually a result of higher fermentation temps.

As was said before, banana flavors are more prominent at higher temps.
I'd say around 70 f or so. and yes they do fade somewhat with age.
But if you are really put off by it then just send it to me and I'll drink it for you. LOL. The reason I"m not brewing a Hefe right now is my basement is too cold for it. You probably have a great beer . IMHO.

It will fade, but not completely. After your fermentation/cold conditioning, it should be about at its peak now.

I copied this from Wheast..... sounds about what they expect you to get from this strain.... I'm sure it will be like others have said and will mellow out with time.


3068 Weihenstephan Weizen Yeast.
Probable origin: Weihenstephan, Germany
Beer Styles: German Hefeweissen, Crystal weisse, Dunkel weisse, Weisenbock
Commercial examples may include: Ayinger Weissebeer, Tabernash Wheat, Sandwald, Erdinger Weisse, Schneider Weisse
Unique properties: Classic German wheat beer yeast, used by more German Brewers than any other strain in the production of Wheat beer. Properties dominated by banana ester production, phenols and clove like characteristics. Extremely attenuative yeast, which produces a tart thirst quenching finish. Extremely low floccing yeast remains in suspension readily with proteinacous wheat malt. Sometimes used in conjunction with lager yeast and kerausened to finish the beer and improve the overall dryness. High CO2 levels, typically at 2.7 - 3.2 volumes is desirable for best presentation. True top cropping yeast requires full headspace of 33%. Ester formation is significantly affected by aeration and pitching rates. Crystal weisse production typically requires DE filtration, may prove too difficult for Pad filtration only. Flocculation - low; apparent attenuation 73-77%. (64-75° F, 18-24° C)

http://www.wyeastlab.com/beprlist.htm#whe

Thanks for the replies everyone. BTW, I fermented at 68F.

At 68F your brew should have been more clovey than banana. Hmmm?

I would attribute the banana to inside temp getting higher than 70F during peak fermentation.

homebrewer_99 said:

At 68F your brew should have been more clovey than banana. Hmmm?

I would attribute the banana to inside temp getting higher than 70F during peak fermentation.

Click to expand...

I had a question regarding this. Which would be more of a factor, temp or the design of the strain? Maybe I worded this wrong. I read this again and it sounds like I'm questioning your insight on what is happening. I'm not. With this particular strain of yeast it sounds like banana sounds like it is emphasised..... lets say we are talking about a different strain and lets say something else is emphasised... lets say something like citrus (really doesnt matter for the question). You get a temp higher then 70F during the peak fermentation... does this mean that the banana would be emphasised even though the strain is meant to emphasis citrus?

YES! That's what I mean.

Hefe Weizen yeast strains are capable of achieving both clove and banana flavors just by altering the fermenting temp.

Some yeasts, for instance WLP300, produces banana and clove. Its optimum fermenting temp is 68-72F. WLP380 has a large clove/minimal banana and produces more sulphur. Its optimum fermenting temp is 66-70F (2 degrees lower and produces less banana!).

If you would use it and ferment at say 64F I believe it will produce even more clove flavor even though it would take longer to ferment since it is out of its "optimum fermenting temp".

HW is my #1 brew.

Underpitching and low oxygenation may also result in increased phenolics (as will open fermentation, though most of us don't practice that...). However, to beat the horse a few more times, I'd expect increased cloviness at 68. I tend to get banana/bubblegum odors during fermentation ~71F and up.

Baron von BeeGee said:

(as will open fermentation, though most of us don't practice that...)

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I have thought about this a little more and I don't think it is the open vs. closed fermentation. It's more the depth of the fermentation vessel. A larger depth (maybe 5ft or more) will cause lots of the aromas to be washed out by the escaping CO2. But since our fermenters are small anyway (bucket or carboy) there shouldn't be any significant wash-out of the aromas. This would apply to bucket and carboy.

I'm not sure if the exposure to air (as it is the case in open fermentation) does anything to the beer during fermentation.

Kai

I'm not so sure, but I'd have to re-read Warner, and I've also seen it mentioned here:
http://www.brewlab.co.uk/pdf/whats the use of wheat.pdf
Whether it's dependent on geometry or open/closed, beats me. Warner also indicates that yeast captured from open fermentation may be reused hundreds of times without fear of mutation, while yeast collected from closed fermenters may be safely resued <10 times...this further leads me to believe there are significant differences in the dynamics of open vs closed fermentation which may affect flavors.

Baron von BeeGee said:

Whether it's dependent on geometry or open/closed, beats me. Warner also indicates that yeast captured from open fermentation may be reused hundreds of times without fear of mutation, while yeast collected from closed fermenters may be safely resued <10 times...this further leads me to believe there are significant differences in the dynamics of open vs closed fermentation which may affect flavors.

Click to expand...

In closed fermentation you get the yeast from the bottom after the fermentation is done. In open fermentation you can skim the yeast off the top while the fermentation is ongoing. This might be the difference here.

Kai

That's my thought on it also!

As for my opinion on open vs closed, the open would allow more flavors to evaporate away as a closed sytem would allow more flavor to be re-absorbed into the surface of the brew...just a thought.

homebrewer_99 said:

As for my opinion on open vs closed, the open would allow more flavors to evaporate away as a closed sytem would allow more flavor to be re-absorbed into the surface of the brew...just a thought.

Click to expand...

That's exactly how I would look at it, so it's odd that the research indicates otherwise. Of course, as the Kaiser points out, much of this may not have much of an impact at the homebrew scale operation.

Is it a matter of open vs. closed or a matter of tall vs. shallow fermenters?

I believe that Weissbier brewers want to have a shallow fermentation vessel with the ability to skim and harvest the kraeusen. That's why they have the open fermenters that we have seen in pictures. It seems less practical to put a lid on those than just making sure that the room they are in is sanitary.

Kai

I could probably do an open fermentation on one of my next batches when I return from travel. I'll probably cover it with cheesecloth though.

I'll experiment for both of us.

Sweet. I've been considering the same sort of idea...cover with cloth once fermentation has started. I'm also considering scooping off the kraeusen to answer that question for myself, too.

FYI

This hefeweizen's flavor balanced out a bit. I think this is one of the best hefeweizens I have had.

Thanks for all the great info!

Do yourself a flavor and drink it - don't save any of it.

FWIW, I have come to learn that if I have a certain batch that is "exceptional" then the only thing to do is drink it all. It is at its prime and anything else can wait. If you save it for a month or so it'll change on you.