"strange" flavor in some of my brews

Hi all. I'm not exactly a beginner, as I've been doing all grain brews for over 2 years now, but I have a nagging question. Every lager I've made, plus the last two cream ales that i've done have come out with an 'odd' flavor. I don't know any other way to describe it. In the past, I've made a cream ale that was very good. It tasted 'clean'. I left it in the secondary at lager temps for about a month. However, the last two cream ales that i made were handled the same way, but came with the 'odd' flavor. However, my last batch was too large to fit in the 5 gallon secondary, so the leftovers went into a quart bottle with an airlock in my pantry (probably 78 degrees). When the ones that were secondaried cold were bottled, they had the 'odd' flavor, but the quart secondaried hot in the pantry had the clean flavor of the first batch (which is why I made two more in the first place). What could be the cause of this odd flavor i'm getting? I ask now because I have another lager beer in primary fermentation right now. I want it to come out 'clean'. what should my next step be?

Hmmm....can you be a bit more specific about the "odd" flavor? What did it taste like? Smell like? Also what were your temps exactly? I know you said lager temps, but an actual number will help out. Also what was the recipe? And what yeast did you use? If you took a gravity reading, what was the OG and FG.

*Edit - Did you make a yeast starter? If so, how large and what temp did you pitch your yeast at?

+1 Odd taste, really doesn't help much. You will have to be more specific before anyone can even guess what the issue is.

At 78 the yeast would have been very happy and cleaned up in no time. There is a lack of info here but I'm betting you moved to secondary before the yeast had finished.

sorry, but I can't really describe 'odd'. Its like i can taste the beer, but there's something else on top, clouding the right taste out of the picture. recipe was:
7.00 POUNDS TWO ROW
2.00 POUNDS VIENNA
1.00 POUNDS FLAKED RICE
0.50 POUNDS CARA-PILS
0.50 TSP CALCIUM CHLORIDE
0.75 OUNCE OF CASCADE (bittering only)
used Safale 05 dry yeast. no starter (by that, i mean pitched yeast in warm water to activate before adding to fermentor)

Here's an odd question then, if yeast 'cleans up' at (my) room temp, should I let all my beers warm up after primary (from 65ish degrees up to 78), before secondary? or should i let them warm from secondary temps (a little cooler) to room temp for a day or two before bottling?

it seems like its only the lighter beers that get this odd flavor. I gues maybe the dark ones hide it better

aoverturff said:

sorry, but I can't really describe 'odd'. Its like i can taste the beer, but there's something else on top, clouding the right taste out of the picture. recipe was:
7.00 POUNDS TWO ROW
2.00 POUNDS VIENNA
1.00 POUNDS FLAKED RICE
0.50 POUNDS CARA-PILS
0.50 TSP CALCIUM CHLORIDE
0.75 OUNCE OF CASCADE (bittering only)
used Safale 05 dry yeast. no starter (by that, i mean pitched yeast in warm water to activate before adding to fermentor)

Here's an odd question then, if yeast 'cleans up' at (my) room temp, should I let all my beers warm up after primary (from 65ish degrees up to 78), before secondary? or should i let them warm from secondary temps (a little cooler) to room temp for a day or two before bottling?

it seems like its only the lighter beers that get this odd flavor. I gues maybe the dark ones hide it better

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Well Safale 05 is an ale yeast not a lager, so fermenting below 59 degrees may cause the yeast to stress/floc out and cause unwanted esters. Leaving it sit in the ale fermentation range may have cleaned up the byproducts. Thats why the one that you left at room tempature "cleaned" up in taste.

Again you really won't get any actual help without determining the off flavor. Any one that does provide you with a reason for your odd flavor is just guessing at this point, and since there are dozens of things that could be causing you issue, its really no help.

I suggest you read this section og John Palmers "How To Brew" and see if anything sounds like it could be your odd flavor.
Chapter 21 - Is My Beer Ruined?
21.2 Common Off-Flavors

i've looked, and as best as i can remember, i guess i would have to say somewhere between the diacetyl and soapy. you guys might force me to drink one tonight and take better notes.

I mentioned lagers becase all the ones i've done have ended up with the same odd flavors as my latest cream ales. I do know the difference between the two and use the US-05 for my cream ales (lagers get WLP 840). Lagers were fermented in the 50-55 degree range and lagered around 35-40. Cream ales primary at 65ish, secondary around 55.

Can anyone answer my other question? After the fermentation has 'ended', should i let them warm to room temp before secondary? or before bottling?

I like to let all my beer warm up. It's not always necessary but it will make for better beer faster. All yeast really like the warmer temps.

I posted something close to my SOP in my Popcorn cream recipe thread. My lagers aren't much different. It's getting closer to what pros do.

aoverturff said:

i've looked, and as best as i can remember, i guess i would have to say somewhere between the diacetyl and soapy. you guys might force me to drink one tonight and take better notes.

I mentioned lagers becase all the ones i've done have ended up with the same odd flavors as my latest cream ales. I do know the difference between the two and use the US-05 for my cream ales (lagers get WLP 840). Lagers were fermented in the 50-55 degree range and lagered around 35-40. Cream ales primary at 65ish, secondary around 55.

Can anyone answer my other question? After the fermentation has 'ended', should i let them warm to room temp before secondary? or before bottling?

Click to expand...

Whenever I secondary it is always at room temp (65-70 degrees) I am not sure the benefit of placing the secondary in lower temps (other than in the lager fridge to crash cool the yeast out). Depending on how long you leave the beer on yeat cake in the primary, I'd venture to say that you may be racking to the secondary a tad bit to soon. No harm in leaving it in the primary longer to allow the yeast to clean the byproducts.

If you end up drinking one tonight, let us know excatly what you are tasting

aoverturff said:

Can anyone answer my other question? After the fermentation has 'ended', should i let them warm to room temp before secondary? or before bottling?

Click to expand...

Ales do not really need to be warmed at all. I typically ferment at 62 with WY1056, then secondary at 58 - 64, and bottle. I have not had any off flavors related to temps in my ales.

Lagers will benifit from a diacetyl rest, once the beer has finished fermenting at 50 - 55 let the temp raise to 60 - 65 for a couple days to allow the yeast to react with and remove the diacetyl forming compounds.

You will definately want to taste one of your beers tonight while looking at the off flavors list, you should be able to nail it down. But from what you have described so far I would guess it is going to be a diacetyl and/or DMS issue.

Hope this is helpful.

Lagers do not necessarily need a diacetyl rest. In time all yeast will clean up at fermentration temp. A higher temp rest just helps them along (and it will with ale yeast too). Dropping the temp too soon is the biggest danger.

...I left it in the secondary at lager temps for about a month. However, the last two cream ales that i made were handled the same way, but came with the 'odd' flavor. However, my last batch was too large to fit in the 5 gallon secondary, so the leftovers went into a quart bottle with an airlock in my pantry (probably 78 degrees). When the ones that were secondaried cold were bottled, they had the 'odd' flavor, but the quart secondaried hot in the pantry had the clean flavor of the first batch (which is why I made two more in the first place). What could be the cause of this odd flavor i'm getting?

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So here's what I get while drinking on of my Cream Ales with the 'odd' taste.
Smell: nothing special. nothing offending or what I would call odd
Taste: sorry, I just can't place it. To me, it doesn't seem like I've cornered any of the 'off flavors' mentioned in How to Brew. My notes from the first batch that turned out well are nonexistant. Second batch notes only tell me the dates that I brewed (Jan 25th one batch, Jan 17th the other) and bottling dates (Mar 26ths one, Apr 25th the other). So both batches sat in the secondary at least 2 months before being bottled. I could guess high fermentation temp could cause excess 'estery' flavors (since I left them at 'winter' room temp of 72), but that doesn't explain the lone extra quart that sat at room temp and tasted fine compared to the other 5 gallons that sat in a 55deg secondary. Maybe if my primary time was too short, some went unfermented into the secondary at too low of a temp (whereas that lone quart was warmed back up and allowed to finish). Bu wouldn't the beer that was in the secondary at too low of a temp finished fermenting in the bottles when I capped and stored them at room temp?

I made an oat meal stout once with diacetyl and the diacetyl never went away in the bottle. Perhaps using a bottling strain less susceptible to diacetyl would have helped clean it up--I don't know. There is a older thread here somewhere about that idea.

Newbeerguy said:

Well Safale 05 is an ale yeast not a lager, so fermenting below 59 degrees may cause the yeast to stress/floc out and cause unwanted esters. Leaving it sit in the ale fermentation range may have cleaned up the byproducts. Thats why the one that you left at room tempature "cleaned" up in taste.

Click to expand...

I used S05 in my cream ale at 58 and it made a very pronounced tangy clove/tart fruit flavor. I ****ing love the taste it made but I know it's an odd ball flavor. Someone else made a thread about 05 making peachy esters at 58 and below but I can't seem to find it.

I talked a couple days ago here about making a Black IPA and fermenting with 05 @ 58F or so. Yes, the peach flavors are there -- but for the IPA, they're fantastic. (Along with the Citra hops). It's not by any means a peach bomb -- but for everyone I've given my Black IPA, they're amazed. It's smooth and peachy -- but hoppy as hell with a good bit of malt to back everything up.

A local brewer was so amazed at the taste that he refused to believe it was Safale-05 that could give it the fruitiness. He loved it and wanted to go back and fiddle with his own Black IPA to get more of a mellow fruitiness.

I'm doing a strong ale now -- 57F with 05 -- and the peach is back. It's definitely a product of the yeast -- so we'll see how it plays with a beer that I want to be modest in hops but forward with the malt. I'll report back.

Here's my thread on Safale05 and fermenting cool for the peach flavor:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/safale-05-58f-what-expect-186996/

That's the funnyness of taste buds. You guys get peach, I get clove/fruity tart taste. Funny thing is until I made the batch I didn't search on off flavors for US05 because everyone said it was very neutral and lagerlike at low temps. Seems they didn't do it as low as we did or their taste buds don't detect it.

So, you are chilling them a couple days in the fridge? I opened one once that was only chilled a few hours and I'd have called it near "soapy" is why I ask. No idea really, sorry.

Have you used the same fermenter/vessels for all the "odd" beers? Since the satellite batch fermented warm in your pantry turned out fine, I wonder if you have something going on in your regular fermenter - bacterial infection? bleach residue? etc.

JLem just said what I was thinking. If its the same off flavor in all the lagers and ales, I'm thinking cleaning/sanitizing supplies or equipment related or (water?). (but I'm just a newb)