All Grain Batches Coming out Watery

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Maddbobbs

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Greetings fellow brewers!!

This has been a recurring problem for me, so I am not posting a specific recipe here to accompany this, but thought this might be a good kick off for a discussion about watery homebrews.

I have done 20+ all grain batches, but I still find that historically I am getting beer that is a bit watery for my likes, seems to be lacking body. I am generally right about my OG and FG's, and have even taken to adding malto dex to most every batch as I finish it up.

My question is, where does carbonation come into this? I always do the set it and forget it method of carbonation, and use my volumes of CO2 chart to make sure I hit targets (usually between 2.3 - 2.7 depending on style) and temperatures accordingly.

Will beers pick up 'body' or mouthfeel over time in the keg as the carbonation settles even more? Usually after a week or so, I am still sensing a lack of body even though I am getting plenty of head on the beer.

Also, if you cold crash before going into a keg, can I condition at or around serving temp (for my most recent Dark IPA, around 48 degrees) and will it simply improve and mellow together overtime?

Any insight or thoughts on this would help. In summation, curious about body coming from 'better' carbonation, or also keg conditioning after cold crashing!

Cheers!

- Bobbs
 
Process? This always helps analyze a problem. What kind of beers are you brewing? did you make a stout that was watery, or were they all pale ales or lagers? Hard to make a good guess on what you have here.

One first glance, though, I would suspect you are mashing at a lower temperature, as a higher temp will give you a bit more body (and a little sweetness).
 
Body is almost always related to ingredients in a beer. Mash temp of course plays a part, but ingredients are still a key.

Can you give us a sample recipe (along with mash temps and procedure) of a recipe that is disappointing to you in the body? And if you characterize this as "watery", "thin", "medium" or any other descriptors? I'm sure we can think of something.
 
Basically what was said above - there's a lot of things that could lead to "watery" beer, but its hard to say without more specific information about your process, i.e. your typical recipe (or even a specific recipe you recall coming out thin), the mash conditions, the boil conditions, and your recorded gravities. I think another problem is that "watery" is a somewhat imprecise term as it could mean either a lack of robust flavors or a lack of body/excessively dry beer - many beers finish very dry but they are not light on flavor by any means.

As for carbonation, it would depend on the style/recipe of beer, typical US carbonation levels of 2-2.5 volumes are very common and don't typically result in "wateriness" in home brew. However, if you were brewing, say English Brown Milds or beers designed for casking, they would probably taste off if they were carbonated to that level.

Typically speaking, I don't ever notice beers changing their perceived body; sure, suspended proteins will fall out when cold conditioned and the flavors will mellow and meld together, but I can't say the impact I've noticed from cold conditioning (which is almost always a positive effect) is a change in the perceived body, mostly just improved flavor.
 
Ill stick with what others have said in that "watery" is hard to diagnose without context. But, I will just throw out my thoughts.

Carbonation is definitely a factor in not only the perceived body of the beer, but the flavor as well. But, the majority of its attributes come form recipe and mash profile. I routinely mash my session beers in the range of 150-152, and get a beer with starting gravities of 1.038-1.044 which show very good body respectfully. That wasn't always the case though. I had two variables that I had neglected that also had an impact. The biggest was tannins. Admittedly, it is more of an issue with session beers, but I was seeing very low last running gravities in a few beers that lead to a higher tannin beer and thus a more "watery" beer. Also, with my darker beers I noticed a vast improvement in body and character by milling my grist coarser. This one baffled me for a while. But, at one large brewery I brewed for, we had a hell of a time flavor matching a flagship Porter that had been historically brewed on a 50bbl brew house. This was now being brewed on a 100bbl European brew house. After dozens of trials which were always picked in triangle tests as watery and lacking flavor, we called in an ex Anheuser Busch consultant that felt that our large wet mills were too efficient, and that the coarser crush of our old 4 roller mill allowed an "insulating" effect on the dark malt which led to more body and flavor. Once we started transferring ground malt from the small brew house to the large brew house, we had a flavor match.

For what its worth.
 
Well as the OP isnt responding I have the same question and maybe by posting my process it will answer his question as well.

Here is a recent recipe with a "thin" mouthfeel.

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10 lbs 8.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 88.4 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 2 6.3 %
6.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.2 %
4.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.1 %
1.00 oz Hallertauer [3.90 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 12.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [4.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6 4.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Saaz [3.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 3.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [15.60 %] - Boil 6.0 min Hop 8 11.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Galaxy [13.00 %] - Boil 6.0 min Hop 9 9.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) [23.66 ml] Yeast 10 -
1.50 oz Belma [12.10 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
1.20 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs

The flavor is great, but the thin mouthfeel, like my other all grain batches, is bothering me.

Strike at 168.5
Mashed at 155 for 60 minutes.
Added 1.5 teaspoons of CaCO3.
Using PH testing strips and aiming for about 5.2 (not as accurate as a digital reader obviously but as close as I can get it).

I also add 1 camden tablet per gallon of water. It is the Crosby 2 ounces and says that 1 tablet per gallon releases 30 ppm.

Drain first runnings, pour back on top. Drain whole batch until dry.
Batch Sparge with strike water at 164 with 5.27 gallons. Added 6-7 drops of lactic acid to the strike water than took PH reading and it was fine. I stir this and let it sit for like 10 minutes so the grain settles and I can drain. Do first runnings back on top and drain all the way out again.

Then, boil for about 10-15 minutes, add bittering hops, for 60 minutes etc.

I cool it in an ice bath, usually takes about 30 minutes or so to drop to pitching temp (70F or around there).

I pitched a dry packet of US-04 on top I am currently working on improving my treatment of yeast.. I know this isn't good practice. I do not, however, get an ester off flavor from the beer and theoretically this could prevent full attenuation so you would think that more residual sugar would equal a thicker mouth feel.

Also, I get my grain at my LHBS. They milled it after I picked it out that morning and then I brewed the same day, a few hours later. I pre heat my mash water with tap water.

Bottle conditioned, carbed as close to 2.3 as I could by weighing out the amount of corn sugar I wanted, 3.61 oz.


If anyone has any thoughts I would appreciate it and hopefully this will help the OP figure it out too next time he logs in.
 
First, don't use CaC03- it doesn't dissolve in the mash. Your campden usage might be too high, but I'm not sure since mine are different. (Read the "brew Science forum for more on water).

But that isn't the issue here.

Are you using a thermometer that you know is 100% accurate? That's the first place to look.

don't pour your first runnings back into the MLT. You can recirculate any "chunks" but that is usually cleared up in a quart or two. Put the runnings in the MLT, and not back into the grain. That's probably a reason for poor efficiency, and not so much a thin mouthfeel, but it's a process that needs to be fixed. You didn't mention your OG, but if it's low, that would give you a thinness to the beer.

2.3 volumes is a pretty low carb rate by most US bottling standards so that could also be a factor.
 
the OG was 1.055 so yes, a little low. FG was 1.014.

I am using a thermometer that I believe to be 100% accurate. A digital, instant read. I am looking for a new water proof one though so I will be able to double check that variable soon.
 
I just mistakenly (ahem experimentally) carbed my last batch to only 2.3 volumes and it definitely feels a bit thin from what I typically enjoy. I've brewed this beer before, so I know how the body should feel, and it is a bit disappointing. Try 2.5 volumes.
 
I thought calcium carbonate was a common mash addition for low alkalinity in the water when brewing dark, acidic beers? Ack! When should it be used, in the boil? But that wouldn't help with mash pH...

What to use in mash to raise alkalinity then?
 
I thought calcium carbonate was a common mash addition for low alkalinity in the water when brewing dark, acidic beers? Ack! When should it be used, in the boil? But that wouldn't help with mash pH...

What to use in mash to raise alkalinity then?

You shouldn't use it at all- it's almost impossible to dissolve without extraneous measures. Some using baking soda, but it has a flavor impact, so pickling lime is one of the better choices. Of course, most people never need alkali added to a mash. Check out the brew science forum for water primers, and water information- that's a great place to pose this question!
 
I thought calcium carbonate was a common mash addition for low alkalinity in the water when brewing dark, acidic beers? Ack! When should it be used, in the boil? But that wouldn't help with mash pH...

What to use in mash to raise alkalinity then?

After some research

"Another substance that can be used to increase the alkalinity of the brewing water and thus raise the mash pH is calcium hydroxide (pickling lime, slaked lime, CaOH). It dissolves in water more readily than chalk and doesn't show the limits that undissolved chalk has while it also adds calcium to the mash. The only drawback is that it is a caustic substance and needs to be handled with care. It is best added to the mash after dough-in."

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mash_pH_control

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/50162/50307.html?1297363947

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=5780.msg69110#msg69110
 
Do you know what the alkalinity in your water is? If you tested the mash ph and it was "fine" then your probably looking at the wrong issue. Your recipe is using pilsner malt. Not exactly a huge mouthfeel base grain. Maybe a pound of carapils would make it more chewy or perhaps using pale malt instead?

Water boils at about 212*F. that would be a good time to check your thermometer.
 
Do you know what the alkalinity in your water is? If you tested the mash ph and it was "fine" then your probably looking at the wrong issue. Your recipe is using pilsner malt. Not exactly a huge mouthfeel base grain. Maybe a pound of carapils would make it more chewy or perhaps using pale malt instead?

Water boils at about 212*F. that would be a good time to check your thermometer.

I didn't mean to imply that it hadn't been tested lately. I went with an icebath last time. Boiling water can be an inaccurate test because of that water's hardness and atmospheric variables.

http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/thermotest.html
 
I think it could be in the yeast. 1 Mil cells per liter per degree Plato for ales and 1.5 for lagers. I would take your yeast (better to over pitch than under pitch) and add it to a sterile flask with wort to let it get to high Kreuzen. This could be done the night before you brew, then pitch that into your freshly brewed wort, I think you would get a superior product.
 
I have a very watery porter (I followed the Bee Cave robust porter recipe), OG of 1.062, FG of 1.020 and I suspect I know why it tastes like I'm drinking plain water. I used some Pacman slurry from a RIS I brewed a few weeks earlier and may have overpitched, since I just eyeballed how much slurry. I fermented in my garage at 60 degrees to perhaps compensate for the too much yeast, and after pitching it blew off in a matter of hours. I brought into the house at 70 degrees on day 4 and swirled the carboy to try and rouse the yeast to get the FG down but I was too late. I am somewhat surprised that it doesn't taste very sweet even with a FG of 1.020.

Anyways, based on what I've read, I'm thinking the lack of flavor may be connected to the overpitching.

It's still somewhat young (5 weeks) and has only been in the keg for a week so I am hopeful that it might pick up some body and flavor in the next few weeks.

I've been AG brewing for a year, and recently started using RO water and following the primer sticky on the Brew Science page, but I'm not sure I like the results. I had my St. Louis water tested and the results came back poor which is why I bought the RO filter. But I may end up going back to the tap water since my last couple of brews seem to be average.

And last, there is a possibility my thermometer is out of wack, so I think I may bite the bullet and invest in a new one to check. As if I haven't spent enough on brewing equipment...
 
Aside from the water, temperature, yeast and timing issues, which I have solved over the years by using RO water, good temp. control, familiar yeasts along with some calcium chloride and gypsum, taste is a complex issue. And to each his own.

A really good steak can be unseasoned and if cooked correctly wind up being fantastic.
Add some salt, cracked pepper, worchestershire sauce, garlic, a dab of butter at the finish
or any number of other adjuncts and you have a different animal.

Adding grains of different styles along with a few other things like Maltodexrin and the like will tend to fill in any "holes" in the flavor profile of your beer/ale.

A SMASH is a SMASH and fits nicely in many people's taste range. But the more complex (AS LONG AS YOIU DON'T GO NUTS) your recipe is, the less chance you have of flavor "holes".

I've used this analogy before:

A band like the Ramones makes fantastic music but it is a garage band.
Add horns and a half dozen other musicians to the mix and there usually (if well orchestrated) will be a wall of music that fills your senses to the max.

Ramones = Great. Just like many SMASH beers.
Bigger band = Great. Just like many beers with a more complex flavor profile.

OMO

bosco
 
I think it could be in the yeast. 1 Mil cells per liter per degree Plato for ales and 1.5 for lagers. I would take your yeast (better to over pitch than under pitch) and add it to a sterile flask with wort to let it get to high Kreuzen. This could be done the night before you brew, then pitch that into your freshly brewed wort, I think you would get a superior product.

I'm definitely going to switch to starters and recently purchased Zamil's Yeast Book to do some further research and because I genuinely just like to purchase brewing books haha.

My understanding with overpitching, like a brewer who pitches onto a full yeast slurry of a 5 gallon batch, is that attenuation might go too high. As opposed to underpitching, which can create extra esters, but also may attenuate less.

After reading everyone's responses I think I am going to invest in my own mill and see if I can use a coarser grind to get the product I'm looking for. I also believe that some further inquiry into the water quality and possibly into malo dextrin will be my next steps.
 
Alright, wow - this got hijacked a touch...a lack of details from my end can do that to a discussion though I suppose ;) My intent was to avoid some of the specifics so we can have a more general discussion about mouthfeel/body and carbonation, as well as potential keg conditioning of a carbonated and cooled keg.

Two things before I throw the recipe up though - I had plenty of yeast and fermentation went smoothly (no blow overs, etc.), and someone above wrote they can ice bath cool their beer in 30 minutes?!? That is impressive by any law of thermodynamics!

Seems you must feed the internet beasts though, so here are the batch details!

Batch Size: 5.1 US gallons (Final, after cooling contraction)
OG: 1.062
FG: about 1.008
Boil time: 70 minutes

Grain Bill
10 lbs Pale 2-row (85.11%)
1 lb Crystal 40 (8.51%)
16 oz Chocolate Malt (2.13%)

Boil/Hops
2 oz Columbus (14.60 AA) at 15min
1 oz Nugget (12.20 AA) at 15min
1 oz Columbus (14.60 AA) at flameout
1 oz Nugget (12.20 AA) at flameout
1 oz Columbus (14.60 AA) for dryhop
1 oz Nugget (12.20 AA) for dryhop

Yeast: Safale US-05 - prepped in a flask the night before, 1 liter starter. Mix plate.

Mash: 60 minute mash at 154 degrees F
Mash Out: 166
Fly Sparge w/ 178 for about 30-40 min.
Fermentation: 1 week at 68 degrees F
Secondary: 10 days at 68, w/ hop addition
Cold crashed to 40, kegged, carbed to 2.4 volumes at serving temp (48).

So back to the question - what is the correlation between carbonation and mouthfeel, specifically in relation to this beer lets say.

Secondly - once you have cold crashed and kegged, I am raising the temp up slightly to serving temp. Will mouthfeel / body change over time while sitting at this temp, and can you condition a keg at cooled temperatures? Most info I have read about keg conditioning is that it is performed at cellar temps or maybe slightly higher (55 - 60) with regards to ales.

Thanks all! And it looks like a CaCO3 discussion is needed somewhere else!
 
This looks like a nice simple recipe, and your brewing methods look great. I'd have you brew at my brewery any time. I'm assuming you hit your gravity? I sparge at 170 but I don't think that will effect mouthfeel. I would add up to 7% dextrin malt next time to add mouthfeel. I do that with my IPA and it has gotten a bronze at GABF for ESB (long story). As for your process it is spot on.
Cheers,
Tom
 
The first thing that struck me is that with that recipe and a mash temp of 154, the 1.008 FG surprises me.

A beer with a FG of 1.008 is normally "thin" feeling, and often is crisp- like a cream ale, or a light lager.

I'd check the accuracy of your thermometer first- I would expect those results in a beer mashed at 149, for example.

The beer won't change much during conditioning, since it has had plenty of time since brewday. Carbonation does change the mouthfeel a little, but it won't make a thin beer feel full.

That recipe is fine the way it is- but for darker beers you may want to try adding a pound of flaked barley. It really helps with body and mouthfeel. It's not usually used in lighter colored beers, as it gives a haze, and then carapils is sometimes used in lighter colored beers. I rarely use carapils, but many brewers use it for body and foam retention. The flaked barley works well, and I use that in many darker beers when I want some mouthfeel and foam retention.
 
If your adding malto dextrin to every batch then perhaps you just prefer heavier beers? For the past year I would consider anything under 1.065 OG to be too light and focused on larger beers mostly 1.085 and above for my preferable consumption.

I think calling your beers watery begs for conversation on flavor as opposed to mouthfeel though.

I agree about that FG being low. Perhaps the thermometer is off calibration or parts of the mash aren't being stirred enough and are mashing at much lower temps? Mash PH can also effect the conversion in much the same way that temperature can.

Carbonation can certainly make a weak beer seem more robust. Why not up your volumes to near over-carb and test it out? It takes over 3 weeks for my kegs to carb in set and forget method.
 
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