How to make a Saison red?

Forum Folks,

In my quest to master the art and science of Saison brewing, both in the traditional and experimental sense; I'm looking for some variations.

Here's my Saison Brun, currently fermenting:
7.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 68.56 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 18.28 %
1.00 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 9.14 %
0.25 lb Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 2.29 %
0.19 lb Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 1.74 %
2.75 oz Tettnang [3.20 %] (60 min) Hops 29.1 IBU
Est Color: 13.8 SRM
1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711)

I'd like to see if I can make a red Saison, on top of the Saison Brun yeast cake. But I'm not sure how to go about getting that red color without adding any residual sweetnes - I like my Saison's bone dry.

At first I thought Weyermann's Carared might do the trick, but that would introduce some sweetness...how much sweetness would depend on quantity. Since I've never used it, it would be a guess on my part.
The other option is using black patent or debittered black malt...but I want none of the roasty or toasty.

Another thought...since it is a Farmhouse Ale...perhaps some beet juice to add red to it! Plus it may have some added sugar for the yeast to work with. Anyone have the good fortune to try Furthermore's Thermo Refur? http://www.furthermorebeer.com/beer/8 Now that is red! :rockin:

What do the good folks of the forum think? I welcome any and all ideas...within reason of course!

It's really hard to get a true red color in your beer. The beet juice is a very interesting idea. Not sure what it tastes like, but it would probably do the trick in making your beer red.

I have also read that most brewers get a redish hue to their beers by using very dark malts in very small quantities. Some 450L roasted barley or black patent malt would do the trick. Because of their darkness, you won't need much at all so they won't contribute too much to your beer's flavor. And compared with using Cara, the black patent will turn out much drier due to the fact that you don't have to use a ton of sweet Cara to get that color.

Best of luck to you with this one. If you do get the Red Saison going, please make sure to post pics of the final product. I'm very interested to see how this one will come out for you.

I would play around in beersmith and see how much Carafa III needs to be added to get the color you want. I have heard of several folks adding the Carafa III to the last 15 minutes of the mash so you get just color and no flavor.

Use some cooked sugar I think that's how you'd get there. You could probably cook your own to a light molasses color and throw it in the brew pot giving you your color.

Thank you for the input; I'll certainly post my results.

For the Saison Brun I used 3 ounces of Carafa III, this beer is most definitely brown.
I was actually trying for a black Saison, Beersmith was telling I should add 8 ounces of Carafa III to accomplish an SRM of 25 (yea, that's black). I was a bit nervous to add that much, not having used this malt before.
I did play around with varying amount of Black Patent and Debittered Black malt in Beersmith, but didn't see the redness I was looking for.
I guess I'll just have to experiment, what's the worst thing that can happen? Just end up with a cellar full of Saison's, in various hues....not a bad thing!

Thanks again for the time and ideas.

From what I've heard, the beet idea should work with almost no change in flavor.

I recently had a "Beet Wheat" at Right Brain Brewing in Traverse City. Interesting Flavor. it will DEFINITELY get you a red beer. The beet flavor in this beer was mild, but noticeable. The color was RED (with pink foam). I think it's worth playing with to see how much flavor you get with how much color.

I thought of "candi syrup" as well. I did make some candi syrup, based on the techniques outlined here, which are excellent by the way: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/20-lb-sugar-jar-yeast-nutrient-114837/
I made the Deep Amber (290F) recipe for a Dubbel recipe; it sure added a nice reddish color AND a ton of dark fruit flavors, not something I'd want in a Saison.
Although, I did add two pounds to the Dubbel recipe - more is better right?
I can see how it could serve two purposes though, add fermentables to dry out the Saison and add color, not two pound though!

Thanks for the ideas...keep them coming.

Red Food Coloring?

Starbursts.....

I'd like to keep any additions as natural as possible...and closer to the art of brewing without artificial ingredients. Even thinking of adding beet juice is a stretch for me. I'd like the color to be malt based if at all possible...so it may have to be reddish, instead of red.
Although I've heard of brewers adding Jolly Ranchers at bottling...never had one yet, so I can't knock it.

I've talked to guys who have had tons of success throwing an ounce or two of black roast barley or black malt on top of the mash about 5 min before you start to sparge to get a nice red color and not get the roastiness.

+1 to roast barley in the last 5 minutes of mash. The color should leach into the mash; but not enough time to get the roastiness.

That sounds like a good plan. I tried the Carafa III route and got nothing but brown.
I'll try the Black Patent or debittered Black Malt route first...as soon as the Saison Brun is done.
I'll post color comparison when I have them fermented.

Thanks again.

A couple lbs of munich malt gave my saison a nice reddish hue. Not bright spanking red by any means, but definitely on the red side of gold.

Have you considered using Hibiscus flowers?

They will definitely add a red color, and some tartness as well. Perhaps 3-4 oz for a 5-gal batch, added to the primary in a steeping bag for a couple of days.
--LexusChris

I must say, adding flowers had not crossed my mind; have you tried it?
Or anyone else have experience with Hibiscus or other edible red flowers?

I like the experimental part of this, but not having ready access to hibiscus flowers it may be hard to carry out. My thumbs are not green at all!
Although, I suspect, an internet search should turn up something.


Thanks for suggesting another option!

dried Hibiscus are used to make tea in latino cuisine - but it is very sour like lemon. Usually the hibiscus tea is sweetened up and served like lemonade - "agua fresca de jamaica". In spanish, hibiscus is "jamaica". If you have access to any mexican or latino food stores there, look or ask for it under the spanish name.

I like the idea of using this in beer - as long as you don't over-do it, hopefully it will add some pleasant "farmhouse" style sourness. Or it might turn out like how people say fermented citrus juice is like vomit. It would be an interesting experiment...

Beets!!!!!!!!!!!!

Try hibiscus, it is used in an Austin Homebrew Supply kit: http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=11267

Brewmaster's warehouse has a grain called weyermann Cara Red. Suppose to add good malt and a "saturated red color"

I asked a similar question about a different style of beer, but the point was the same - I wanted a red color. Fair warning, I haven't had a chance to brew the beer yet, so I don't have any results, but here were the top suggestions:

1) Add beet juice

2) Add some roasted barley

3) Add some dark crystal malt - 120L

4) Add some Special B

I personally settled on a combo of 3 & 4 - 1/2lb of each

hibiscus tea is very good. I think the bright, almost berry like flavor would be interesting in a saison. You could always make a concentrated tea and added it to taste or to the right color.

Hmm I might have to try this.