Back Sweetening Question

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natnov

natnov

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Ok, I made some cider, I used a wine yeast....ooops
It is more dry than I wanted. I was looking to back sweeten it and I bottle so that is tough. I was curious if it is possible to kill the yeast and sweeten then introduce a much less efficient or alcohol tolerant yeast to carbonate? I read somewhere that yeast die around 110 degrees F, when does alcohol really start to boil off? If you raised the temp similar to pasturizing and killed the yeast but didn't boil off the alcohol couldn't you then sweeten and add some yeast that wouldn't be able to consume all the sweetener? Any ideas besides Splenda are appreciated.

I think I may just carbonate the crap out of it and enjoy the dry bubbly nature....but it wasn't my original goal....live and learn.

Nate
 
I'm not sure why you'd want to kill the yeast...if you want to back-sweeten why not do so with an unfermentable sugar like lactose, or an artificial sweetener of your choice, and then carbonate with a small amount of fermentable sugar (dextrose)? That way you get your sweetness, and your carbonation, no heating required.

Ethanol boils at 173˚F.
 
Just for future reference, yeast is killed at 140° or above. You can seriously injure it at 120° but need to go higher for killing. I agree with above, don't kill it just sweeten with non-fermentable and bottle away.
 
I don't know much about lactose except that it comes from milk usually? I have heard that it isn't very sweet and has a distinct taste?
anyone ever used it in a cider? Does it do the trick?
Thanks
Nate
 
natnov said:
I don't know much about lactose except that it comes from milk usually? I have heard that it isn't very sweet and has a distinct taste?
anyone ever used it in a cider? Does it do the trick?
Thanks
Nate
Click to expand...

Lactose is a disaccharide, which is a dimer of two simple sugar subunits. In this case, glucose and galactose. The bond between the is not cleavable by yeast, so the glucose cannot be fermented. Your taste buds are less specific than the enzymes used to break down the sugars and therefore it will still taste "sweet" to you. If in question, stick your finger in some lactose at the LHBS and taste it. You can decide for yourself if it's something you'll want in your cider.
 
Thanks for the replies. I am still not sure what I will do, maybe some of each idea above.
Has anyone here used lactose in Cider before? Any ideas about how you thought it tasted? Will the lactose give it a creamy taste?
Is there any other non fermentable sugars that are easily availabe and would be more appropriate for cider?
Thanks again for all the help.
Nate
 
I've used Splenda in nearly all my recent cider batches. It is mostly dextrins, so it also adds a very nice mouthfeel to the sweetness. Counteracts the dryness, and alchohol very well.

I don't see why Lactose would not work either. Same purpose.
 
I know of some people that have had some great luck with the following. Go ahead and back sweeten any way you want. I usually use regualr old sugar or a little more concentrate. Bottle and wait a couple of weeks. After 2 weeks open a bottle and see if it's at the right carbonation, if not wait another week and try again with another bottle. Whenit's just right, run the whole batcvh through the dish washer to "home pasturize" and kill the yeast. The only bad things I've heard about it is that youmay have onme or two broken bottles.

Your milage may vary. Good luck.
 
I would totally warn against putting full carbed bottles in the dish washer.
You stand a chance of blowing the whole batch...A carbed bottle can have 2+ atmospheres worth of pressure in them at room temp. My dish washer gets BOILING hot...as indicated by the extreme steam that comes out of it...That will blow bottles for sure.
IF you decide to do this...give it a try with 2 or 3 bottles...cause you may loose them all
 
I kind of have the same question as this thread starter, but slightly different. I have a batch of Ed's Apfelwine w/ EC-1118 that's in the primary @ about 9.5%. I've got another finished batch of it right now w/ the recipe as it stands, and it's very good. This time, however, I would like to modify it to add more flavor, sweetness, and carbonation. I really don't want to add splenda or lactose to it or fake apple extract for more flavor. This is a 1 gallon batch and my idea was to add 1 more gallon of cider w/ preservatives to add sweetness and flavor, but not ferment at all. I'd obviously give it some time before I bottled to make sure...which leads me to another question...Once the preserved cider is added, will there still be enough yeast left to carb this? Also, if I'm adding 1 gallon of preserved cider to I'm cutting the ABV in half as well, correct?...Will it then be 4.75%? Any thoughts on what I'm about to do? Will this not turn out the way I want? Anyone?
 
HP_Lovecraft said:
I've used Splenda in nearly all my recent cider batches. It is mostly dextrins, so it also adds a very nice mouthfeel to the sweetness. Counteracts the dryness, and alchohol very well.

I don't see why Lactose would not work either. Same purpose.
Click to expand...

I just racked my Mixed Berry cider and it tasted very tart and unsweet. I suppose time will let it become sweeter and sweeter? Otherwise, i'd like to look into back sweetening as well. Does the Splenda give it that nasty, chemichally fake sweetness? I hate Diet Coke and I would hate for a cider to taste the same way. Also, how about using Maltodextrin? I have pounds and pounds of it at work.
 
Actually Splenda should be fermentable, I've read that it's converted into regular sucrose in the cell which is then consumed. The reason it contains 15% less calories is that it takes energy to remove the chlorine atoms in it.

I wouldn't trust a year old splenda-sweetened cider not to become somewhat carbonated and less sweet.
 
Nerro said:
Actually Splenda should be fermentable, I've read that it's converted into regular sucrose in the cell which is then consumed. The reason it contains 15% less calories is that it takes energy to remove the chlorine atoms in it.

I wouldn't trust a year old splenda-sweetened cider not to become somewhat carbonated and less sweet.
Click to expand...

Fairly positive that Splenda is non-fermentable.
 
I have 6 month old cider in a keg that had 1 cup of splenda added. Trust me, it's not drying out.

My suggestion would be to force yourself to drink some of that dry cider. You'll begin to appreciate it. You can't ever go back to dry once you add a non fermentable. I wish I hadn't sweetened mine.
 
Tusch said:
Fairly positive that Splenda is non-fermentable.
Click to expand...

And the Splenda at the grocery store is 99% Maltodextrin. So even if sucralose was fermentable, it would be such a tiny amount that it would make no difference at all.

One odd side-effect of using the MD/Splenda is that it gives my ciders a slight head that stays in the glass. Not nearly as much as beer, but a welcome site.

nick
 
"sight"

And yes, I had forgotten about the fact that splenda is nowhere near pure sucralose, which is definately fermentable simply because exposure to acidified water is enough to slowly turn it into sucrose. The enormously dilute nature of the solution probably stretches the reactiontime to a few centuries though :)
 
Nerro said:
"sight"
Click to expand...

Then

definately
Click to expand...
spelling

reactiontime
Click to expand...
spacing

:)
Click to expand...
punctuation

Oh, just being funny. I've been on the internet since, around 1988. The rule I've learned is that it serves no purpose to correct someones spelling, since by definition, you already know what the intent was. Almost as annoying as people who reply simply "QFT", or other similar 1 word, content-free, reply.

Its interesting that sucralose changes to sucrose in water? If sucralose is 1000 times sweeter then sucrose, how can they make diet-soda with sucralose? Soda is very acidic (carbonic acid, phosphoric acid). I would imagine that minute amount of sucralose would disappear?
 
Nerro said:
Actually Splenda should be fermentable, I've read that it's converted into regular sucrose in the cell which is then consumed. The reason it contains 15% less calories is that it takes energy to remove the chlorine atoms in it.

I wouldn't trust a year old splenda-sweetened cider not to become somewhat carbonated and less sweet.
Click to expand...
Trust me...and if you don't...read away, Splenda is definitely NOT fermentable. Search for Splenda in some of the mead and wine forums.
LOTS of people have used it...and I've NEVER seed a post that says.
HELP, I sweetened with Splenda and now I have bottles blowing up..(or corks blowing out...or carbed wine...)
 
Splenda is not fermentable to any appreciable extent by yeast. In effect, zero.

Those chlorines aren't coming off.

We can talk bond-strengths of the C-Cl, the conditions necessary for removing them, and the unlikelyhood that these conditions would be met in the cell for all 3 Cl atoms to be removed, the energy requirements then needed to cleave the galactose-fructose bond, and then modify galactose and fructose for glycolysis, if you like; or you can take my word for it. :)
 
:off:
Pyro said:
I kind of have the same question as this thread starter, but slightly different. I have a batch of Ed's Apfelwine w/ EC-1118 that's in the primary @ about 9.5%. I've got another finished batch of it right now w/ the recipe as it stands, and it's very good. This time, however, I would like to modify it to add more flavor, sweetness, and carbonation. I really don't want to add splenda or lactose to it or fake apple extract for more flavor. This is a 1 gallon batch and my idea was to add 1 more gallon of cider w/ preservatives to add sweetness and flavor, but not ferment at all. I'd obviously give it some time before I bottled to make sure...which leads me to another question...Once the preserved cider is added, will there still be enough yeast left to carb this? Also, if I'm adding 1 gallon of preserved cider to I'm cutting the ABV in half as well, correct?...Will it then be 4.75%? Any thoughts on what I'm about to do? Will this not turn out the way I want? Anyone?
Click to expand...
Pyro...How many times are you going to ask this question? I answered you the first time you asked this exact...word for word question, Here... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=59600
Didn't you believe me? Evan also answered you...He is a pretty respected opinion around here.
I'm real sorry if you don't like the answer, and don't get me wrong, I don't mean to come off as a grouch here...but the answer is the same. If you want to try it anyway, give it a shot. Post back on your thread and tell us if we were wrong.
 
Bond strengths:
C-Cl = 352 kJ/mole
C-OH = 382 kJ/mole
ΔH = -30kJ/mole (= 126kcal/mol)


Ergo, it's thermodynamically favourable to exchange the chlorine for water, which will eventually happen. Otherwise there would be no sense in people saying that splenda has any caloric content.

galactose fructose bonds can be broken and normally would be but under these starved conditions might not take place in the cell... RATS! You might be right :p

Oh well... Live and learn. What was this topic about again? ;)
 
First, you bio-chem geeks can debate Splenda all you want, but it sweetened the hell out of my pumpkin ale this year. Over 6 months later, there is no appreciable difference in sweetness and mouthfeel (I never used any method to kill or stunt the yeast).

Second, don't run full bottles of cider through the dishwasher. TERRIBLE idea.

Lastly, lactose and Splenda will have very similar effects when used in backsweetening. Splenda tastes sweeter than lactose or even table sugar (per volume/mass), so add it sparingly.
 
I personally don't trust splenda helath wise. Bonding chlorine to sugar just seems like future trouble to me. That and I can't stand the taste of that crap.

There's also stevia (healthy and natural) but it has a distinct taste which may or may not go well with a cider. If you are using pure stevia (the green stuff) use it sparingly!
 
Once again, I'll suggest not trying to sweeten the whole batch. Fill your glass with 1/4 sweet apple juice, then top off with the cider. By the time you're through your first gallon, you'll be drinking it straight cider.
 
BigKahuna said:
:off:
Pyro...How many times are you going to ask this question? I answered you the first time you asked this exact...word for word question, Here... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=59600
Didn't you believe me? Evan also answered you...He is a pretty respected opinion around here.
I'm real sorry if you don't like the answer, and don't get me wrong, I don't mean to come off as a grouch here...but the answer is the same. If you want to try it anyway, give it a shot. Post back on your thread and tell us if we were wrong.
Click to expand...


BigKahuna...

Look at the dates above MY ORIGINAL post here, and then the new thread I started with this same question. The one here was made 2 days earlier than my thread starter. No one was answering here plus I also felt like I was interupting natnov's post, so I started the new thread. Your & Evan's responses were fine and I believe both of your respected opinions. Thanks............grouch. ;)
 
Never thought about using Stevia.

Wikipedia does say that its non-fermentable. Though it also says that SOME reports imply there might be health concerns. There are FDA restrictions for its use. That said, I read that Japan has used Stevia in diet-coke for 20 years or so.

Splenda though is predictable, at least for me. The only issue I ever had was trying to dry out a braggot with amylase. It was too dry, so I backsweetened with splenda. The amylase converted the maltodextrin down to simple sugars, and fermentation started again.... and made it even more thin, though sweet. Odd combination

nick
 
Denny's Evil Concoctions said:
FDA classes anything that is not made by Pfizer a health concern. lol

Also there is xylitol which is a sugar made from corn cobs and birch trees and I believe is non-fermentable.
Click to expand...


Doesn't that stuff give you diarrhea? :p
 
I think all the sugar-alchohols have that property (ie maltitol, sorbitol, xylitol, etc).

However, I don't think they are easily obtained at either your LHBS, or grocery. Seems like a speciality item.

nick
 

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