Czech Premium Pale Lager Pilsner Urquell knockoff

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sudbuster

This ain't my first rodeo....
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jul 14, 2007
Messages
4,027
Reaction score
286
Location
Western Arkansas
Recipe Type
All Grain
Yeast
wy2278
Yeast Starter
yes
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter
none
Batch Size (Gallons)
N/A
Original Gravity
12.33 P
Final Gravity
2.56 P
Boiling Time (Minutes)
90
IBU
40
Color
4-5 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
12, 3.9C increasing to 8.9C
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
40 @ 0.6C
Additional Fermentation
none
Tasting Notes
Very soft, clean, slightly sweet, well balanced malt and hop.
Pilsner Urquell Knockoff
Traditional three decoction

Very soft (hardness <30, Ca <8, SO4 <6, TDS < 35) brewing water

Not specific for volume, multiply for your volume.
ex; 5gal batch uses 4Kg malt​


Mash in, thoroughly kneading Moravian malt (if you can't find Moravian then use Bohemian) using 1.85 L water per 1kg malt at 32.2 C about 10 min.

Pull the first decotion. Slowly increase decoction temp to rest at 65 C for 10min, then ramp slowly (5 to 10 min) to boiling. boil 5 min covered. Return the decoction to the mash tun gradually ( ~5 min ) stirring well to bring the mash temp to 52.8 C. Any remaining decoction may be force cooled to the mash temp and returned to the mash. Mash Ph ~5.2. Rest about 5 min, then..

Pull the second decoction. Repeat the process above with ~ 40% of the heavy mash. Return the decoction slowly ( about 20 min ) to the mash tun, again stirring to maintain even temp increase to 65 C. Maintain temp with boiling water infusions which helps thin the mash. Rest for 60 min, then..

Pull the third decoction. This time, drain off about half of the thin mash and boil for about 5 min. Stirring plays a big part in this. Return the decoction to the mash and stir for 5 min at a mash temp of 75.6 C.

Lauter/sparge for 60 min.

Boil wort 90 min. Use fresh Saaz hops(~4 AA) at a rate of 350g/hL(~ 78g/6.4gal of wort) in three portions, 45% at start of boil, 30% at 55min left, 25% at 15 min left befor flameout.

Pitching. Cool to 3.9 C and pitch WY2278 or equivalent at a rate of 15 million cells per mL.( Ex./ One activator pack added to 1 liter of wort, then,after ferment,add 1 more liter of wort and ferment. This should yield ~ 15 millon cells/ ml when pitched into 9 gal of wort) Bring the temp up to 8.9 C over a period of about 12 days.

Lager this beer for 40 days at 0.6 C
 
Aren't you pitching a little cold? Wyeast 2278 likes 10 - 14 degrees Celcius. Fermenting on the high side will reduce sulfur.
 
That's interesting about the low fermentation temperature. I was once talking to a German trained brewer about a Czech pilsner I was making and I mentioned I was fermenting it at 10C, and he looked shocked, and said it should be 4C and 10C was too quick. I thought he was winding me up, and figured he was talking about lagering temperature. Interesting to see it here
 
Low start temps reduce diacetyl and esters as well as fusels at a time when the yeast starts actively producing them ( respiration ). Less initial diacetyl and the less you have to reduce at the end of fermentation.
 
4C is incredible though. You never hear about a pitching/ferment temp that low in HB circles. Pilsner Urquell has a hint of diacetyl, too - it's part of the flavour profile. I usually go in at 7 - 8 C for my lagers and ferment at 9C raising to 10 - 11C at the end.
 
Just because you're lagering doesn't mean you have to do a diacetyl rest. If it's prominent in the produced beer, than you may need to employ one. Some lagers just don't need it.
 
I stopped reading when I saw the C's, P's and kg's.... Why not make the boil times metric too! Whats a 90 minute boil in metric? like 37.476 minutes?

Well, I'm so sorry you became discouraged BrotherM. It's just that I am a retired physics teacher and much prefer units that 98% of the world is using over the archaic system we (US) cling to so desperatly.
 
Well, I'm so sorry you became discouraged BrotherM. It's just that I am a retired physics teacher and much prefer units that 98% of the world is using over the archaic system we (US) cling to so desperatly.

Yeah, I actually prefer units of 10 (100, 1000, etc). I like to tease people about metric b/c most people who prefer the "English System" do so out of, not just familiarity, but pride as well.

In the brewing world I've been making attempts to get a feel for a kg, a ml, a degree C, and Plato, but since I actually learned to brew with the other units I find I can visualize them much better.

I feel its akin to people who learn one language, as a base, and then branch off onto others. It has been observed, albeit anecdotally, that when such a person is angry, argues, and even dreams etc, the often revert to the base language.

I think in OG vs FG - then translate to P or brix.

Same does for C -> F. C = (F -32) * 5/9?!!! hahahahaha.

In the nuclear world we are all over the place. BTU, Kjoule, Watts, In/hg etc.
 
what's the grain bill for this?

Do you need a secret decoder ring to understand what is going on in this recipe? I stopped drinking ovaltine years ago so I guess I lose out.

You talk about the simplicity of metric, how about the simplicity of a recipe with a clearly defined grain bill using the format provided by the forum?

Don't mean to be harsh here, but isn't the point of standardizing a recipe format on this forum so people can get used to seeing it one clear way.

I would love to try this recipe, but I will just pull out my copy of BYO instead and grab this recipe.
 
Despite the confused and hurtful comments, I decided to give this a try a week ago. I had previously not done a decoction mash and had a friend request i brew a pilsner so decided this was a good one to go with. Have a few notes to share.

First, for those confused by metric you want about 8.75 lbs grain and 3 oz hops for a 5 gallon batch. You'll likely have to do that conversion anyway if your LHBS only prices by the pound for grain and ounce for hops (like mine).

Now for my notes:
1) Thanks for the detail on the decoction mash, I'd just add that for the 1st pull you didn't include a ratio for the amount that should be pulled. I aimed for 25% but that seems like it was too low as my resulting temp was low after returning it to the mash. I had to add some additional boiling water to hit the target temp for the rest period.

2) On the low pitching temp... I pitched around 5C as recommended, but ended up not getting any activity. This may be b/c I was lazy and didn't use a starter. I used the Wyeast slap-pack, so I know the yeast was active from the inflation of the package, but had no activity in the wort after 5 days. So I repitched some dry lager yeast (I'm still lazy and avoided doing a starter). I checked the Wyeast website which provides a temp range with 10C for the lower bound for 2268. I repitched with saflager s-23 and raised my temp closer to 10C and it started fermenting after the usual lag time (~30 hours, which is a little longer than my avg lag time but I attribute it to some of the oxygen leaving the wort during the initial 5 days).
I know others remarked on the low pitching temp, wanted to see if others had experience with not using starters at these temps, or if it becomes mandatory when pitching that cold.

3) I'm tempted to repeat this in about a week... After I rack this batch from the primary I aim to make a 2nd 5 gallon batch and transfer that directly onto the trub. I knew some commercial brewers who do similar to this (reusing the yeast several times), wanted to see if any homebrewers have attempted that with this pils recipe (or other lagers).
 
I think you will make a better beer with liquid yeast than s-23. The only place I would pitch that yeast is in the trash can. This is a very delicate beer and you really should use the proper yeast and make a starter. I personally wouldn't use an S-23 cake for anything, that is a nasty yeast. If you really want to use dry yeast, I would recommend W-34/70.
 
If anyone is interest in seeing one do an triple decoction then see


A very good video about the decoction method.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
For anyone watching / waiting for the results, this came out GREAT! Even with the alternate yeast addition and slow start, it fermented steadily at the cold temps, slowly rise to a higher temp as recommended, then transferred, layered and bottled. I tasted the first test bottle yesterday (after 8 days in bottle) and it was already great. Saving most of the rest for memorial day weekend at the lake ;). Took a sample by the local brew club and the overall consensus was that it is "damn drinkable".
The only notes for improvement were to up the hops, and I think for those that prefer more hop flavor another 0.5 to 1 oz hops towards the end of boil would not put it out of style, but I would hesitate as the current beer is pretty spot on as a bohemian pilsner.

Thanks for posting, I have a second batch still fermenting with the saved yeast, I toyed with that a little, changing to only a double decoction and also letting the pulls boil a bit longer to get some more color / caramel (but not much). Will also update on how that goes, but it's just now nearing the end of primary so it will be another 50 or so days before I sample.

Thanks again sudbuster.

image-2056875139.jpg
 
Here what i think i'm going to try this weekend. I altered the recipe for my RIMS system, based on the recipe above, the comments and my system. I'll post my results when done.

If you think i'm screwing up, post comments soon please!


Pilsner Urquell Knockoff
Shopping list-- 9 lbs Moravian or Bohemian malt or and 4 oz Saaz hops - 1# 20L crystal

Mash in, at 90 degrees F. using 1.85 L water per 1kg malt for about 10 min.

Slowly Increase temp of RIMS system to 128 degrees F. over a 15 min period then rest 10 minutes ,

Slowly Increase temp of RIMS system from 128 degrees to 149 degrees F over 20 min ) and hold for 60 minutes

Bring RIMS to 168 degrees for about 5 min.

Lauter/sparge for 60 min.

Boil wort 90 min. Use fresh Saaz hops in three portions, 1.5 oz at start of boil, 1 oz at 55min left, .5 oz at 15 min and 1 oz at flameout.

Pitching. Cool to 40 Degrees F. and pitch WY2278 or WLP800 2 liter starter Bring the temp up to 48 degrees F> over a period of about 12 days.

Lager for 40 days at 33 degrees F.
 
Pilsner Urquell Knockoff
Traditional three decoction

Very soft (hardness <30, Ca <8, SO4 <6, TDS < 35) brewing water

Not specific for volume, multiply for your volume.
ex; 5gal batch uses 4Kg malt​


Mash in, thoroughly kneading Moravian malt (if you can't find Moravian then use Bohemian) using 1.85 L water per 1kg malt at 32.2 C about 10 min.

Pull the first decotion. Slowly increase decoction temp to rest at 65 C for 10min, then ramp slowly (5 to 10 min) to boiling. boil 5 min covered. Return the decoction to the mash tun gradually ( ~5 min ) stirring well to bring the mash temp to 52.8 C. Any remaining decoction may be force cooled to the mash temp and returned to the mash. Mash Ph ~5.2. Rest about 5 min, then..

Pull the second decoction. Repeat the process above with ~ 40% of the heavy mash. Return the decoction slowly ( about 20 min ) to the mash tun, again stirring to maintain even temp increase to 65 C. Maintain temp with boiling water infusions which helps thin the mash. Rest for 60 min, then..

Pull the third decoction. This time, drain off about half of the thin mash and boil for about 5 min. Stirring plays a big part in this. Return the decoction to the mash and stir for 5 min at a mash temp of 75.6 C.

Lauter/sparge for 60 min.

Boil wort 90 min. Use fresh Saaz hops(~4 AA) at a rate of 350g/hL(~ 78g/6.4gal of wort) in three portions, 45% at start of boil, 30% at 55min left, 25% at 15 min left befor flameout.

Pitching. Cool to 3.9 C and pitch WY2278 or equivalent at a rate of 15 million cells per mL.( Ex./ One activator pack added to 1 liter of wort, then,after ferment,add 1 more liter of wort and ferment. This should yield ~ 15 millon cells/ ml when pitched into 9 gal of wort) Bring the temp up to 8.9 C over a period of about 12 days.

Lager this beer for 40 days at 0.6 C

This has to be one of the better stabs at Urquell that I have seen. Most other attempts are WAY too strong.
 
I am brewing this for a third time, turns out great each time:

1. 5g split into w1272 and s-189 @ 14C (57F) - fast faux lager
2. 4g into w3787 @20C (68F) - belgian pils?
3. 6.5g into w2278 as OP fermentation schedule. - hopefully, the real deal.

Thanks Sudbuster. This recipe will be a regular brew during Aussie winters.
 
hi all,

so i have decided to enter the PU competition in SF at the end of july and needless to say i am excited and cautious at the same time. by cautious i mean, i don't wanna fail :) i hate nothing more.

my fear comes from never having brewed a lager, never brewed all-grain, never brewed a enhanced dbl decoction and never lagered beer! WHOA! i'm ready for the challenge though, and have been spending that last week reading as much as i can about the processes and gathering info on recipes, including this thread.

i've attempted to parse this as well, given it's from the source and thought that would be a good guide. http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue5.3/urquell.html

here's what i've ordered from NB:
9lbs - Bohemian PIlsner
2 packs - Wyeast 2001 Pilsner Urquell
3oz - Saaz pellets
5.2 buffer
2000ml Yeast starter kit
Wyeast nutrient blend
Irish moss
Wort chiller


here are the things i am still unsure of:

Yeast:

- do i generate the starter with water at the temp i plan to ferment at? i've read that this is helpful to get the yeast used to working at that temp.
- do i add the second packet of yeast after a few days with a little more DME to supercharge it?


Brewing:

using this decoction chart (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index. ... _Decoction) and the video referenced a few posts up.

- dough-in: would 1.7qts./lb be the right ratio? am i just dumping 105F water onto grain in cooler MTL?
- hop rate: i'm planning this... 350g/26.4gal, which is...13.25g/gal = 66.25 g (2.34oz) for a 5 gal batch
- hop pitch schedule: seen a bunch of diff. suggestions so i'm not sure what wold be best
- does one need to water soften? if so, how is that done?
- when/where am i adding the 5.2 buffer?


Fermenting & Lagering:

- is a bucket going to be ok for a 11 day fermentation? i've only done ale recipes of ~7 days so i'm not sure if it'll become oxygen permeable before my 11th day.
- since wort chiller won't get me down to 39F, should i get it into the bucket (post-chiller) and then seal it and put it in fridge to get it down to 39F
- once at 39F i'll aerate the wort & pitch the yeast from starter (at same temp)
- i am planning to ferment at 39F for 11 days (bucket)
- i plan to raise the temp to 48F at the end of 11 days, do i do that slowly in the fridge or just take it out into the garage?
- once it reaches 48F am i moving it to my secondary vessel (carboy) and then putting it back in the fridge to lager? i plan to lager at 39F for 35-40 days.


Bottling:

- since i am going to bottle this...do i lager in the secondary, then just bottle at the end with priming sugar? or, do i need to bottle at some point in my 35-40 days and let it lager in bottles?
- if i need to add gelatin for clarity, when/where do i do that? in secondary or bottle?
- do i have no chance of my bottles carbonating fast enough, a few days give that i'll have only a few days to spare after ferm/secondary/lagering? if so, kegging here i come :)
 
hi all,

so i have decided to enter the PU competition in SF at the end of july and needless to say i am excited and cautious at the same time. by cautious i mean, i don't wanna fail :) i hate nothing more.

my fear comes from never having brewed a lager, never brewed all-grain, never brewed a enhanced dbl decoction and never lagered beer! WHOA! i'm ready for the challenge though, and have been spending that last week reading as much as i can about the processes and gathering info on recipes, including this thread.

i've attempted to parse this as well, given it's from the source and thought that would be a good guide. http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue5.3/urquell.html

here's what i've ordered from NB:
9lbs - Bohemian PIlsner
2 packs - Wyeast 2001 Pilsner Urquell
3oz - Saaz pellets
5.2 buffer
2000ml Yeast starter kit
Wyeast nutrient blend
Irish moss
Wort chiller


here are the things i am still unsure of:

Yeast:

- do i generate the starter with water at the temp i plan to ferment at? i've read that this is helpful to get the yeast used to working at that temp.
- do i add the second packet of yeast after a few days with a little more DME to supercharge it?


Brewing:

using this decoction chart (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index. ... _Decoction) and the video referenced a few posts up.

- dough-in: would 1.7qts./lb be the right ratio? am i just dumping 105F water onto grain in cooler MTL?
- hop rate: i'm planning this... 350g/26.4gal, which is...13.25g/gal = 66.25 g (2.34oz) for a 5 gal batch
- hop pitch schedule: seen a bunch of diff. suggestions so i'm not sure what wold be best
- does one need to water soften? if so, how is that done?
- when/where am i adding the 5.2 buffer?


Fermenting & Lagering:

- is a bucket going to be ok for a 11 day fermentation? i've only done ale recipes of ~7 days so i'm not sure if it'll become oxygen permeable before my 11th day.
- since wort chiller won't get me down to 39F, should i get it into the bucket (post-chiller) and then seal it and put it in fridge to get it down to 39F
- once at 39F i'll aerate the wort & pitch the yeast from starter (at same temp)
- i am planning to ferment at 39F for 11 days (bucket)
- i plan to raise the temp to 48F at the end of 11 days, do i do that slowly in the fridge or just take it out into the garage?
- once it reaches 48F am i moving it to my secondary vessel (carboy) and then putting it back in the fridge to lager? i plan to lager at 39F for 35-40 days.


Bottling:

- since i am going to bottle this...do i lager in the secondary, then just bottle at the end with priming sugar? or, do i need to bottle at some point in my 35-40 days and let it lager in bottles?
- if i need to add gelatin for clarity, when/where do i do that? in secondary or bottle?
- do i have no chance of my bottles carbonating fast enough, a few days give that i'll have only a few days to spare after ferm/secondary/lagering? if so, kegging here i come :)

So, where to begin. Judging by the date of your post I will guess you've already brewed but if you're still interested:

In my personal opinion you will want to get some familiarity with all-grain brewing before decoction mashing or you run the risk of destroying your enzymes and getting poor attenuation. Combined with the fact that you have never made a lager before, this leads me to suspect you may end up with a very sweet product. Of course this is based on my own experience with lagering. I find it difficult to get the same attenuation you would expect from ale yeast with a lager yeast, even when you pitch a ton of yeast. Lager yeast are fussy creatures and don't forgive mistakes.

As for your specific questions:

Yeast - Follow the directions on Mrmalty.com and you will be far less likely to mess up the starter. http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php. Of course he would recommend a 3 L starter with the two packs as well. My guess is that if you add more DME later you will in fact get less yeast growth, but that may be arguable.

Dough in: 1.85 L/kg comes out to ~.9 q/lb. You will lose some temperature when you dough in so you need to use a calculator like this one to calculate your dough in temperature.

Hop Additions: The hop schedule given in this recipe should be fine for a PU clone.

Water: Without knowing your water profile you cannot "soften it" as such. I believe that Poland Spring (spring water, NOT distilled) is fairly close to the water profile in Plzen. Some people get good results by mixing distilled water 50/50 with their tap water. Of course, that is a shot in the dark if you don't know your water profile.
5.2 Stabilizer is a buffer, so you will want to add it to the mash.

Fermentation: The bucket will be fine, don't worry about it. You can leave beer in a bucket for a month with no problems unless you open it. You should be able to seal the beer and refrigerate it over night without infection. You ABSOLUTELY CANNOT ferment lager at 38 F, you need to pitch at 38 f then slowly raise to 48. My guess is that it would be fine if you pitched it low and then let the temperature rise even over a day or two, but there are some who would disagree. You will need to let it ferment for at least a week at 48 F, probably closer to 2 weeks. Personally, I ferment a lager at 52 F for 2 weeks before I even think about opening it, so it seems to me that 48 for 12 days would be cutting it close but if you're confident in your yeast health it could be fine. You will need to verify that you have finished fermenting before you drop to lagering temperature (read: you must verify that you have hit FG with a hydrometer). Tradition would dictate that a 12 Plato beer be lagered for at least 6 weeks; however, that may not be strickly necessary.

I didn't have any problems bottling after lagering, but I have heard of people who did. If you are worried about it you can always pitch a packet of clean ale yeast into the bottling bucket with the sugar. You would add the gelatin to secondary after you are done lagering (maybe 2 days or so you want to bottle). It will probably take at least a week for the bottles to carbonate (and if you want to take good marks in the competition you will want a lot of time for the priming yeast to drop out, that's why people say 3 weeks to bottle carb).

Anyway, good luck with your brew/fermentation/lagering/competition. It should at least be a learning experience.
 
Pivovar,

thx for getting back to me. i had in fact already brewed the beer and it's now sitting in the fridge at ~48-50F but i am not seeing much gas-off from the airlock. :/ let's get back to that in a second.

as you suggested i did end up with a sweet wort and it tested out at 1.051 OG. the decoction process was really fun to do but it was def a lot of time. i didn't end up hitting the mash-out temp exactly. i was right around 160-161F.

i used 60% distilled and 40% tap in all phases (decoction and boil). i added the 5.2 as well to the water before dough-in.

i created the starter, at least i think i did :), and added more DME after a day or so to build it up. one thing i am not sure about is what temp i should have been creating the starter. john palmer says to do it at pitching temp, which i did for the first DME infusion but since i didn't see any real obvious fermentation when infused the second DME i left it out at around 60F. again, i didn't see much sign of fermentation other than the foamy stopper that comes with the kit from nor brewer was leaking some bready/yeasty smells.

i tried to decant the wort before pitching but i ended feeling like i was gonna lose a lot of yeast so i stopped and just pitched it all in there.

stuck fermentation? so i pitched at 39F, and after 24-36hrs saw no visible signs of ferm., so i called N.Brewer and asked them what might be up and they i needed to get the temp up to upper 40s and that i should pop the lid and re-aerate (making sure to sanitize my stirring device and splash lid well, i did both, resealed bucket and raised up the temp to 48-50F, where it is now and has been for 24hrs.

still no bubbles in airlock. i haven't taken a gravity reading yet but i guess i could.

on the positive side... the beer has a great pilsner color and strong hop nose. i've been sipping it when taking gravity readings. it also seems quite clear for not having settled out much at all in ferm or secondary. i think that has something to do with the decoction process because my MTL had a huge amount of protein/scum on top of the grain when i lautered-out.

- any ideas on what i might have done wrong, if anything?
- is it fermenting but i'm just not used to a lager that doesn't actually get all crazy and bubble like mad?
- next steps or things to look out for?
- and for curiosity, i use star san and i'm totally confused by the no-rinse concept as i would imagine that the acid in it would kill yeast. no?

photo (4).jpg
 
Yeah, I think the cold pitch is sort of an "advanced" technique. If you are worried about diacetyl formation, its one strategy for suppressing that. You don't really have to do it and it could cause unnecessary worry of the type you are having. Wyeast says that 48 deg F is the minimum temperature for that yeast. My guess is that the reason you are not seeing airlock activity is that you have a low cell count (due to your unfamiliarity with starters) and low temperature (which reduces the rate of fermentation).

Since this is your first lager and you are not confident in the strength of your starter (i.e. yeast cell count) and you have not seen fermentation yet, you might consider raising your temperature to ~52 deg. F if you don't see signs of fermentation in a few days. Of course you should not expect to see the same sort of airlock activity you would expect in an ale, you might get a bubble every 5-10 seconds instead of 1-2 seconds.

As far as things to look out for, I would allow it to finish fermenting completely before racking to secondary for lagering. Also, you probably should check for diacetyl as not having enough yeast can encourage diacetyl formation; probably can just take a hydrometer sample to check that you've hit the gravity you were aiming for then taste that, if it tastes like butterscotch than you will need to do a diacetyl rest. Which basically means allow the temperature to rise to ~60 deg. F for a couple days. When you rack, it should be about as clear as an ale you would drink. The picture you posted above is too cloudy to begin lagering (obviously, because it hasn't fermented yet).

Star-san is acid based, meaning that it only is an effective sanitizer at high concentration (pH<3). You pour out the sanitizing solution leaving a few mL of the solution in the bucket, when you fill the bucket up with ~20,000 mL of wort the solution is completely diluted thereby destroying its effectiveness as a sanitizer.

Since you are asking I imagine your chemistry is rusty, but basically an acid is a molecule that likes to shed hydrogen in solution leaving the solution full of reactive hydrogen ions. These hydrogen ions go around reacting with any molecule susceptible to attack by acid. The aggressiveness of the solution is measured by pH with numbers around 7 being neutral, numbers below 7 being acidic, and above 7 being basic. So pH ~0-1 would be aggressive acid solutions and pH~13-14 would be aggressive basic solutions (remember the lye in fight club? Lye is a strong base). By comparison the pH of a mash is ~5, the pH of fully fermented beer is ~4, and the pH of vinegar is ~3. The remaining acid from the sanitizer is negligible compared to the acidity of the wort. If you were to be worried about starsan you should worry about the dodecylbenzesulfonate part, not the acid part. Phosphoric acid is not a concern unless it is highly concentrated.

P.S. Glad to hear your decoction went well, I have had a similar experience with a ton of protein left in the mash tun after decoction mashing. I believe that this is due to the fact that you are boiling a portion of the wort and thereby making a hotbreak and denaturing the proteins.
 
I am no expert but this is how I built up 2278 to start a 7g batch of this recipe.

1.25l starter with one pack, then
9l (2.5g) batch of 11P lager pitched at 6c, main ferment at 9c (48f?), then use 2/3 of yeast cake to
27l (7g) batch of 12P pilsner knock off pitched at 6c.
(sorry I live in metric land)

I got a strong krausen forming within 24 hours.

A have a cube of schwarzbier ready to go after the pilsner. I no chill.


I think if you follow the instructions for a decoction they aren't hard just time and attention consuming.
 
Yeah, I think the cold pitch is sort of an "advanced" technique. If you are worried about diacetyl formation, its one strategy for suppressing that. You don't really have to do it and it could cause unnecessary worry of the type you are having. Wyeast says that 48 deg F is the minimum temperature for that yeast. My guess is that the reason you are not seeing airlock activity is that you have a low cell count (due to your unfamiliarity with starters) and low temperature (which reduces the rate of fermentation).

Since this is your first lager and you are not confident in the strength of your starter (i.e. yeast cell count) and you have not seen fermentation yet, you might consider raising your temperature to ~52 deg. F if you don't see signs of fermentation in a few days. Of course you should not expect to see the same sort of airlock activity you would expect in an ale, you might get a bubble every 5-10 seconds instead of 1-2 seconds.

As far as things to look out for, I would allow it to finish fermenting completely before racking to secondary for lagering. Also, you probably should check for diacetyl as not having enough yeast can encourage diacetyl formation; probably can just take a hydrometer sample to check that you've hit the gravity you were aiming for then taste that, if it tastes like butterscotch than you will need to do a diacetyl rest. Which basically means allow the temperature to rise to ~60 deg. F for a couple days. When you rack, it should be about as clear as an ale you would drink. The picture you posted above is too cloudy to begin lagering (obviously, because it hasn't fermented yet).

Star-san is acid based, meaning that it only is an effective sanitizer at high concentration (pH<3). You pour out the sanitizing solution leaving a few mL of the solution in the bucket, when you fill the bucket up with ~20,000 mL of wort the solution is completely diluted thereby destroying its effectiveness as a sanitizer.

Since you are asking I imagine your chemistry is rusty, but basically an acid is a molecule that likes to shed hydrogen in solution leaving the solution full of reactive hydrogen ions. These hydrogen ions go around reacting with any molecule susceptible to attack by acid. The aggressiveness of the solution is measured by pH with numbers around 7 being neutral, numbers below 7 being acidic, and above 7 being basic. So pH ~0-1 would be aggressive acid solutions and pH~13-14 would be aggressive basic solutions (remember the lye in fight club? Lye is a strong base). By comparison the pH of a mash is ~5, the pH of fully fermented beer is ~4, and the pH of vinegar is ~3. The remaining acid from the sanitizer is negligible compared to the acidity of the wort. If you were to be worried about starsan you should worry about the dodecylbenzesulfonate part, not the acid part. Phosphoric acid is not a concern unless it is highly concentrated.

P.S. Glad to hear your decoction went well, I have had a similar experience with a ton of protein left in the mash tun after decoction mashing. I believe that this is due to the fact that you are boiling a portion of the wort and thereby making a hotbreak and denaturing the proteins.

i have it at around 50-52F now and the "float" in the airlock is pegged against the top but not seeing bubbles. i'll take a longer look and see if i see anything over a minute or 2. i have 2 smack-packs of 2278 that i could add if i need to boost cell count but what's in there now is 2001. i guess as a last ditch effort it would work, no? thoughts?

should i pop the top and stir it up really gently? leave the top on and shake the S*$T out of it? pitch 2278 and do one of those?

when would you suggest i take a gravity reading to see if anything is actually fermenting?

thx for the info on diacetyl and how to diagnose and cure it, and for the star san. i am def not a chemist so most of that was news to me :) i loved doing the decoction simply for the super geeky, old skool way of doing things. i plan to make an Oktoberfest for my upcoming wedding and might employ that again, but on the other hand i'll need to make 2-3 batches to drink ~120 people so maybe that'll just be too much. we'll see. you have an Oktoberfest recipe you love?

in your opinion, is this beer doomed? or just delayed and will eventually do its thing?
 
good news! bubbles are finally coming up the airlock. 1 bubble approx. every 5 secs. i guess i'll let it do its thing then pull a gravity check in a week or so. i'll also sniff it for butterscotch and plan on doing the rest if needed. this lag is def gonna shorten my lagering time so we'll see how that ends up.

any tricks to speed up lagering?
 
good news! bubbles are finally coming up the airlock. 1 bubble approx. every 5 secs. i guess i'll let it do its thing then pull a gravity check in a week or so. i'll also sniff it for butterscotch and plan on doing the rest if needed. this lag is def gonna shorten my lagering time so we'll see how that ends up.

any tricks to speed up lagering?

I think if you get Greg Noonan's book "New Brewing Lager Beer" he has some different schedules you can use. Some of which are faster than others.

If you are really in a hurry, you could probably check the gravity after 1 week fermentation and if you are more than 75% through your fermentation allow the temperature to rise to ~60 F for a day or two. That could cut a couple days off your process and might help your beer clear faster.

I don't remember if you said you were kegging or bottle conditioning, but if you were kegging you could probably carb the beer while lagering. I have heard it said, though I don't know myself, that the CO2 "scrubs" the beer which, if true, might help clean up the beer faster.
 
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Hey- I got a question for people. Should I be looking at using Weyermann's regular Bohemian pilsner malt or the floor-malted stuff? I'd like to save a couple bucks but if there's a difference, I'm fine with using the floor-malted malt.

I'll be entering this in the homebrew contest and want a long lagering time because it'll be going at 38-39 F, not ideal.
 
Unless you are really confident in your recipe and brewing process I am not sure you would benefit from spending more money on floor-malted. Even a german pilsner malt would probably be fine. If you have everything else down and you are looking to take your bohemian pilsner to the "next level" you might try the floor-malted.

I don't think that lagering ~38-39 F is going to be a huge problem.
 
Pivovar_Koucky said:
Unless you are really confident in your recipe and brewing process I am not sure you would benefit from spending more money on floor-malted. Even a german pilsner malt would probably be fine. If you have everything else down and you are looking to take your bohemian pilsner to the "next level" you might try the floor-malted.

I don't think that lagering ~38-39 F is going to be a huge problem.

I mean I've brewed quite a few lagers but no BoPils. I'm going all in... Why enter this competition if your not there to win
 
If it's like that then spend the money and go for it, it's only like $0.10/lb anyway right?

It's more like I can get Bohemian Pilsner at my LHBS, apparently, but I'd have to order away for the floor malted stuff. I talked to Michael Dawson and it sounds like I'm good.
 
This is a major bump but after reading all these comments, I wanted to assure folks that this is an incredible recipe and the only way a BoPils should be done. I hadn't seen this recipe before but it's exactly what I do, to a T, and it turns out better than any decoction workaround or addition.

Keep the ingredients simple and the process complex and you'll get a superior product.
-T
 
Hi guys!

I had same question about the first decoction step.

"from whyrat:
...for the 1st pull you didn't include a ratio for the amount that should be pulled. I aimed for 25% but that seems like it was too low as my resulting temp was low after returning it to the mash. I had to add some additional boiling water to hit the target temp for the rest period. ..."


My First question is: use the "heavy" mash?
And for the second question I'll try to use formula below.
(I'm still building my new kitchen so I had no chance to play...)


Formula :
decoction_volume = [total_mash_volume * (target_temp - start_temp)] / (boil_temp - start_temp)

so in our case we have something like this:
decoction_volume = [5g * (127F - 90F)] / (198F - 90F)
decoction_volume = [5g * (37K)] / (108K)
decoction_volume = 1.71 gallons (~6,5Litres) ( around 34%)

Note: 198F may change.

Tks guys! And have a good beer!
Frank
 
Didn't really follow that formula, but here's my advice:

1) Thick mash means scooping or straining out the malt, with enough wort to cover. After you've done a few of these, you'll start figuring out the appropriate amount of liquor to malt, but at first, leave the decoction a little thinner so it's harder to scorch. You'll also boil off a bit so give yourself some room for error the first time.You won't get quite as much Malliards, but that's not an issue in a pilsner. Just scoop out the malt and top up with wort so it's barely covered.

2) Regarding the quantity, here's a simple trick. One quart of thick mash per pound of grist. That simple. The BeerSmith calculator and similar formulas are very precise, but they come in under for many people as the mash cools down during the transfer. The most frustrating problem with a decoction is coming in under temperature and having to pull more or do a "mashout" of sorts, which throws off your sparge volume, etc. You'll probably only need 75% of that quantity, but pulling extra ensures less work. Just gradually add it back as it cools. My stovetop system has horrendous heat efficiency so I end up using almost the entire volume. Work with that simple guideline initially, you'll thank me later. And use this rule for any 20-30 F jump.. If it's only a 10 F, you could pull half a quart a pound.
-T
 
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