Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

Not from my experience. Granted, that is one batch. But I just cleaned the primary corny keg, and there was a nice thick krausen ring at the top of the keg. I didn't have a problem because I stepped down to 4 gallon batches. I'm sure a littler fermcap-s would help a bit.

Can't speak to fermenting under pressure, but I routinely use fermcap and have had zero blowoff when fermenting in a corny keg. I can't say enough about it....it's truly one of the cheapest and most useful items...lasts years and it has prevented many a boilover!

Randar said:

Does the pressure prevent the build-up of the krausen?

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Yes, top pressure limits krausen height.

It limits the height but does nothing about the ring. It will still be there, just helps to keep the stuff from reaching the top of the keg (In Most Cases... 15 gallons in a 15.5 gallon keg had about a cup of liquid come out my exit point). Next time I will use fermcap, or build my wanted newest device. Have I said how much I love pressure fermentation???

Well that was the longest read of my Homebrewtalk life.

Here's a question though. I would prefer to still ferment in my carboy's. I would however transfer my beer to my Corny, w/pressure relief valve, prior to fermentation is 100% complete. This should give me me adequate c02 to naturally carbonate my beer...if I've read all this correctly.

This got me thinking though. In theory couldn't you just:
1. Ferment in a Conical with a Blowoff.
2. Once the beer is 70-80% fermented, collect your yeast from the conical.
3. Remove the blowoff and seal the conical so the beer creates 10-15psi worth of pressure.
4. Then once the Beer is finished/carbed hook up the pressurized Conical straight to your tap and use it as a Bright tank?

Of course this would require some sort of Conical that can with stand at least 20psi Plus a safety net. Also be able to handle a both a Spunding connection and a blowoff tube.

I have yet to find a product that can do that. (inform me if I'm wrong)

Only other way I see this happening is by DIY and with someone who has the balls to convert a Keg into a Conical.

Yep, you can just transfer to a corny with 20-25% left of your gravity, but why? You will have to transfer again to get off the yeast that drops out. Most of us only use a primary for this very reason. It is only different in my case that I have a carbonated product at the end of primary.

Yes, your questions are correct... but finding this product is impossible. I would only take a conical if it could hold 60 psi, just to be sure for future stuff/wine/cider/soda. A Sanke or Corny are already built for this pressure and are perfect for fermentation, so why not-not use one?

You should check out Yuri's homemade conical build... that guy is a MANIAC with his brew-porn. I have to meet him one day and shake his hand and buy him a plethora of beers (among others)! Yuri Rocks Out with His... well you get the point.

Well... see that's how much I know about all this sciencey brew stuff. I think I'm going to try and do a 4.5g batch in this corny the next time... 4 gallons had zero blowoff

WortMonger said:

Yep, you can just transfer to a corny with 20-25% left of your gravity, but why? You will have to transfer again to get off the yeast that drops out. Most of us only use a primary for this very reason. It is only different in my case that I have a carbonated product at the end of primary.

Yes, your questions are correct... but finding this product is impossible. I would only take a conical if it could hold 60 psi, just to be sure for future stuff/wine/cider/soda. A Sanke or Corny are already built for this pressure and are perfect for fermentation, so why not-not use one?

You should check out Yuri's homemade conical build... that guy is a MANIAC with his brew-porn. I have to meet him one day and shake his hand and buy him a plethora of beers (among others)! Yuri Rocks Out with His... well you get the point.

Click to expand...

Well that cleared it all up for me.
Also, the reason i don't want to ferment 100% in one corny is because I don't want to trade beer space for head space. Maybe when I get around to picking up some Sankey's I'll do it.

Yeast in the bottom of my corny is exactly what led me to think of a Conical.
That's too bad. Someone should get on making a Conical that can hold some pressure.

How much yeast could possibly be left in a secondary fermentation situation? In my experience I haven't had that much left. Most of my beers don't stay around longer then 2-3 weeks either, so dead yeast shouldn't be an issue i think.

It's all worth exploring though. Would save me money on buying so much damn c02.

Go for it then. I was just saying from my opinion and from my experience. It will work well in your situtation to do a spunded secondary. I only use CO2 for transferring in my brewery, not that it is that expensive or anything. I really want to krausen a beer before too long too.

Definately inspired. Might have to extend the ol' xmas list to santa this year.

Thanks
Redbeard5289

Great, try it and come back and post about your experiences. Man, this thread keeps on growing .

Definately inspired. Might have to extend the ol' xmas list to santa this year.

Thanks
Redbeard5289

Wow! Just wow! Tried a taste of my simple Pilsner and it is fantastic. I tried to get enough to let people taste, but the keg wasn't filling fast enough and I had to hit the road. I cannot wait to try the brown. I really need to find a great newcastle clone though. I could drink that weaker brown all the time. Anyone else have a P-fermented update on their beers?

WortMonger said:

Wow! Just wow! Tried a taste of my simple Pilsner and it is fantastic. I tried to get enough to let people taste, but the keg wasn't filling fast enough and I had to hit the road. I cannot wait to try the brown. I really need to find a great newcastle clone though. I could drink that weaker brown all the time. Anyone else have a P-fermented update on their beers?

Click to expand...

Just tapped my first pressure ferment. A simple Vienna malty brew. Grain to glass in 12 days. Fully carbed! And no more fussels. I'm loving it. Just finished brewing a northern english brown ale and put the spunding valve on.

*burp* . Yes, I just put the 4th one in the fermenter. My Oktoberfest was spectacular ! It was certainly drinkable in 2 weeks, but I lagered it for 2 more to clear it up. Because this was a party beer, and I new it was short, I did filter this one.

It was very tasty, not a hint of DMS or any other flaw. I am going to try and grab a couple of bottles before it is gone.

A brown porter just went into the fermenter. Not sure what is next, other than the Celebration Ale I have in my hand

Was that Octoberfest done with lager yeast? I'm glad it turned out that fast if it was. I am still doing a month to two month primary on my lagers before transfer. I have shown a lot of people my setup this weekend. They seem pretty surprised from what they thought home brewing looked like . It definitely had the "cool factor" when they saw the pictures. i have done nothing but talk about brewing this holiday.

Yes that was with lager yeast. If I had more time, I would have left them on temp, but it was a Halloween/40th Birthday party.

I moved my Americanized Schwarzbier lager to a corny keg to finish lagering in the kegerator in order to be able to brew my "backyard ale" and get it on pressure. It's 94% 2 row, 6% crystal 60, then it has Summit for bittering, plus my backyard grown centennial/cascade hops added at 60, 30,15, 5 minutes. OG was 1.05 at 75% efficiency. I should have been higher in eff. but I added topoff water to 11gallons instead of 10. IBU is right at 46 and 7 SRM. It's fermenting on PacMan(the only ale yeast I use) right now. I'm almost out of my IPA so I needed a fast fermenter to keep the taps flowing until my Black Lager/Black Ale experiments are ready to drink. Pressure on...

Awesome stuff! That backyard ale sounds tasty. I need to get my hands on PacMan. I am going to order some from Ed at BMW as soon as I need more than just the yeast. I need to do a kolsch real soon as well. Man I luvs me some kolschy goodness.

Just took a sample to check gravity. I decided to leave the pressure set at 5psi under introduced co2 pressure. That of course went down to about 2psi due to absorption. Once it was back up to 5psi after 3 days from pitching, I ramped it up to 15psi at 62 deg. I'll be curious if this slows the fermentation down at all. Here's an embed of my set up for dual corny filling a la counter pressure fill. All parts via mcmaster, Lowes, and Northern Brewer. I love it. It was my first fill which I used on my last IPA which I'm currently draining. I've since figured out how to minimize the foam and co2 issue.

Is it just me or does this look like it the conical product i was mentioning a few posts ago?

http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=257

Even says they are going to be adding ball lock connections.

flananuts said:

Just took a sample to check gravity. I decided to leave the pressure set at 5psi under introduced co2 pressure. That of course went down to about 2psi due to absorption. Once it was back up to 5psi after 3 days from pitching, I ramped it up to 15psi at 62 deg. I'll be curious if this slows the fermentation down at all. Here's an embed of my set up for dual corny filling a la counter pressure fill. All parts via mcmaster, Lowes, and Northern Brewer. I love it. It was my first fill which I used on my last IPA which I'm currently draining. I've since figured out how to minimize the foam and co2 issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BETMDQGzFjs

Click to expand...

I'm draining my first pressure fermented batch, a scottish 80 schilling. The taste is awesome, the technique very cool. I ran mine through a 5 micron filter on its way to 3 cornies but had the same problem with foaming and the beer isnt clear.

Any hints?

I am wondering if the fact that the housing isn't vented all the way is the problem. How was the filter filled prior to transfer? I am in the process now of tracking down filtration equipment that I can use for other things as well. I want to use a 1 micron for beer polishing, and maybe a lot larger micron for mash to kettle filtration or kettle to cooler filtration and pre-chiller hopping. In my opinion, the filter needs to be filled and vented completely prior to the start of filling kegs from it. Never having used a canister type filter before, I don't know (especially, filtering carbonated beer). I am glad someone else is doing the experimenting so I can get a better idea before I dive in.

I tried to taste a keg I transferred prior to Thanksgiving, and it is very yeasty even yesterday. I don't understand this at all from previous experiences where I had clear beer with no filter.

WortMonger said:

I am wondering if the fact that the housing isn't vented all the way is the problem. How was the filter filled prior to transfer? I am in the process now of tracking down filtration equipment that I can use for other things as well. I want to use a 1 micron for beer polishing, and maybe a lot larger micron for mash to kettle filtration or kettle to cooler filtration and pre-chiller hopping. In my opinion, the filter needs to be filled and vented completely prior to the start of filling kegs from it. Never having used a canister type filter before, I don't know (especially, filtering carbonated beer). I am glad someone else is doing the experimenting so I can get a better idea before I dive in.

I tried to taste a keg I transferred prior to Thanksgiving, and it is very yeasty even yesterday. I don't understand this at all from previous experiences where I had clear beer with no filter.

Click to expand...

I didn't fill the filter before transfer. I just pressurized the corny to 10, CO2 in on the sankey to 12-15. Bled the corny with an S valve until beer started flowing. It took about 8 psi difference to get the beer going through a 5 micron filter.

The filter housing never really filled all the way to the top. It was mostly foam...

Once my filter was about half to 3/4 full, I turned it over and then turn back, and it filled up almost to the top. The beer into the corny was pure liquid flow with an occasional co2 bubble or two. The venting idea would be good prior to connecting to the cornies. The last beer I transferred my beer was carbed to14lb psi, set the cornies to 14psi and then slowly opened the valve to start transfer. It wasn't anymore difficult at 14psi than my original transfer at 8psi.

This is what I was hoping to hear flananuts! It just doesn't make sense that there would be that much foam under pressure on both ends. I gave up on the idea of a post-serving keg to pre-tap filter idea due to the fact it would be open on the exiting end, hence allowing foam. I had heard that even the Randall foamed for a while and a pitcher was needed. I am confident that I will use a 1 micron absolute for my beer polishing. Now, I just have to decide on pleated vs. non-pleated and if I want to go the extra money for something autoclavable vs. throw away after finally clogging. I have heard that the SS filter cartridges aren't absolute due to them being mesh and not micron measured??? I still have some hardcore research on that before I settle.

Does anyone have a link (sorry I lost the one I was given) to a cheaper cartridge that is autoclavable for sure and is known to fit the common housings? I sure would appreciate the added confidence that I was sterile before running to a serving keg. I know I could use Star-San, and I would, I just want to have autoclavable. Heck, I just got done autoclaving my Therminator, brewery hoses (silicone), and all my fittings just to be sure after forgetting to clean out my mash tun for almost a month.

WortMonger said:

Does anyone have a link (sorry I lost the one I was given) to a cheaper cartridge that is autoclavable for sure and is known to fit the common housings?

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Fiberglass Media, Polypropylene Core, with SS Ring - $36

Polypropylene Media, Polypropylene Core, without SS Ring - $31.25

I wouldn't recommend relying on Star San to sanitize a filter. Heat is your friend. 200F for 5 minutes is considered sterile if that is your goal.

I've been using pasteurization temperatures (162F - 170F) for 10 minutes with excellent results. Yeast and bacteria capable of growing in beer can not survive pasteurization temperatures.

lamarguy said:

Fiberglass Media, Polypropylene Core, with SS Ring - $36

Polypropylene Media, Polypropylene Core, without SS Ring - $31.25

I wouldn't recommend relying on Star San to sanitize a filter. Heat is your friend. 200F for 5 minutes is considered sterile if that is your goal.

I've been using pasteurization temperatures (162F - 170F) for 10 minutes with excellent results. Yeast and bacteria capable of growing in beer can not survive pasteurization temperatures.

Click to expand...

Just to be clear, the second of those 2 links is only rated to 175 degrees F and states you should get the models with the SS ring should you need higher temps since the ring will protect the integrity of the end caps.

Which filter densities do you guys go with? I have heard 5 micron (as one other poster was using) is desirable for filtration, but have no personal experience.

Randar said:

Just to be clear, the second of those 2 links is only rated to 175 degrees F and states you should get the models with the SS ring should you need higher temps since the ring will protect the integrity of the end caps.

Click to expand...

Just to be clear, it states the Operating Temperature (pressurized) is 175F. Polypropylene is 100% autoclavable.

And, the "potential warping after repeated autoclave cycles" is really only an issue with the non-flat end caps. The flat end cap filters, which most folks use, wouldn't warp enough to prevent a good seal.

lamarguy said:

I wouldn't recommend relying on Star San to sanitize a filter. Heat is your friend. 200F for 5 minutes is considered sterile if that is your goal.

I've been using pasteurization temperatures (162F - 170F) for 10 minutes with excellent results. Yeast and bacteria capable of growing in beer can not survive pasteurization temperatures.

Click to expand...

Sweet! Thanks again for the links to the filters. I really didn't want to be having to rely on a liquid sanitizer. I plan on using my pressure canner like I do for my Therminator and brewing hoses.

lamarguy said:

Just to be clear, it states the Operating Temperature (pressurized) is 175F. Polypropylene is 100% autoclavable.

And, the "potential warping after repeated autoclave cycles" is really only an issue with the non-flat end caps. The flat end cap filters, which most folks use, wouldn't warp enough to prevent a good seal.

Click to expand...

I am sold after reading more about polypropylene. I guess the only worry is the EPDM gaskets if anything, and that can handle 200-220*F so maybe not worth worrying about at all. I am guessing that all 10" filters are really 9.75" and that when someone says 10" they mean the housing. I'm not finding 3/4" fittings on the uswatersystems site that I would use. I really wish they had a 1/2" inlet and outlet to hook my two ball valves to.

Just ordered my Christmas present... a clear filter housing and a .45 micron absolute pleated filter cartridge. I chose the 100% polypropylene filter with the EPDM gaskets. I figure I will clean it by soaking in Oxy-Clean and back-flushing, then put it in a large jar and autoclave it (essentially canning it for future use). This way I don't have to worry about it after it is sealed up, and can simply pull it out and plop it in the housing (which I will sanitize prior to use with Star-San). I will still use time and gravity for most of my beers, but I will have an ace up the sleeve for problems like this last beer has given me.

Anyone know how long it takes after you filter to get a drinkable beverage? I mean, does it take a settling period to get a good looking beer in your glass after filtration?

we're totally getting off-topic, but I presume you can't bottle carb after filtering below 5 microns without adding some yeast back. Is that correct?

I don't know if you would have enough yeast left or not. Why would you be bottle carbonating if you did pressurized fermentation and had carbonated beer prior to transferring to a keg... or a bottle? Just curious, as it seems like you would just go with normal fermentation techniques to get to the point you needed/wanted to do bottle conditioning. I could be wrong, hell look how crazy I brew! LOL

A properly carbonated beer is ready to drink immediately after filtration. Assuming you filter around 32F and maintain a small back-pressure on the destination keg, you shouldn't lose much CO2. Good luck!

0.5 micron: sterile (devoid of yeast)

1 micron: < 10% of suspended yeast (high probability of failed bottle conditioning)

3 - 5 micron: ~15 - 25% of suspended yeast (should bottle condition normally)

Just to be safe, I recommend you add an 1/8 teaspoon of dry yeast per 5 gallons if you plan to bottle condition.

Woohoo, I'm set then. I always have a back-pressure during transferring. I go slow and push with higher than carbonated volumes of CO2.

So a little off topic but related to filtering. My backyard ale is tending to be a hella lot more bitter than planned. My centennial/cascade blend were 2nd yr growth so no way to really know what the IBU's are.

My question here is can I essentially filter some of the hop out of my beer when I filter? I won't know really how the finished product will be but a tasting of the ale at 1.03 was wicked bitter.

I don't believe so, the compounds that give beer it's bitterness are in solution. You could try to sweeten it.

klyph's right, you can only sweeten it to counteract the bitterness. However, time will mellow the bitterness a little bit, but probably not as much as you will need. Now, filtering with a fine filter and then time... maybe. Ya just have to wait and see. You could always save the beer and blend it with another later if it is undrinkably bitter.

I agree with our friends from Alaska and Oklahoma, filtering with a sterile filter will reduce the bitterness and body slightly but won't have a significant effect on the overall bitterness. The numbers I've seen estimate a 10 - 15% reduction in bitterness using a sterile filter.

However, like WortMonger said, you could remove the majority of yeast (<= 1 micron) and blend with a sweeter beer or lower IBU beer (no need to filter). Breweries blend their production beers to achieve a consistent flavor.

Speaking of filters... mine came in and she's a beaut! I can't wait to try this beiotch out. I would be willing to bet that my room temperature-constantly higher pressure-pressure fermented brown ale will be crystal clear upon transfer into a serving keg, while this lager will be yeasty right up until tomorrow when I move that bad boy to another keg filtering the whole way. LOL, such is life. I am hoping for the best beer clarity I have ever had in my brew house with this damn lager. I literally haven't filtered a beer since I was at the brewery, and that was a huge 15 plate DE filter for 465 gallon batches. Wish me luck on my home brewery filtering maiden voyage!