Need help with first AG efficiency

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Soulive

Soulive

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So I did it today in the 25F wind chill and all and all things went well. I was waiting for something to go wrong and nothing did...until racking into the fermenter. My pre-boil volume was 6.55 gallons and I was hoping for 5.5 gallons into the fermenter. I ended up with 3.75 in the fermenter! How could that much have been evaporated/absorbed?!? I only used 3oz of hops and my boil time was about 70 minutes. I mean the steam was coming off like crazy since its was frigid most of the time, but that much boil off?!? I ended up topping-up with another gallon of spring water...:confused:
 
If I understand everything I just read after a google search (its iffy at best) air temp will effect your evaporation rate.
 
Ouch........................optimist kicking in............it can only get better.
 
GaryA said:
Ouch........................optimist kicking in............it can only get better.
Click to expand...

Yeah I don't get it. When partial mashing I never had that low efficiency. It won't even be drinkable since the IBUs are 70 and the OG is 1.049. That's just not good...Help!
 
Well with partials you would get extra sugars from your extracts. Guessing you didn't put any extract in this one.

Post up the recipe and temps so those with more AG experience can help out.
 
GaryA said:
Well with partials you would get extra sugars from your extracts. Guessing you didn't put any extract in this one.

Post up the recipe and temps so those with more AG experience can help out.
Click to expand...

Its EdWort's HPA recipe to the tee. My mash temps were 153F and I sparged at 167F. I know partial-mashing involves the extract but I still was still able to fullfill the grain fermentables. My mashing just really sucked and I don't understand goign from 6.5 gallons to 3.5 in about an hour fifteen :mad:
 
The O.G. of that 3.5 gallons has to be pretty high since you boiled off 3 gallons. I would add some spring water and pitch the yeast.

What is the O.G of your post boil wort?
 
EdWort said:
The O.G. of that 3.5 gallons has to be pretty high since you boiled off 3 gallons. I would add some spring water and pitch the yeast.

What is the O.G of your post boil wort?
Click to expand...

The 3.5 gallons were at 1.049 before the water. I really really don't know what happened here :confused:
 
Alright, deep breath...

I can't believe you brewed today with the wind.. gusts of 40mph. Brave! I suspect that wind adds a lot to boiloff.

Did you leave any wort behind in the kettle at all? You used my keggle right so did you maybe forget to add hose to the output in order to pull a siphon to get all the wort out? I can't imagine a 3 gallon boil off in only 75 minutes.

You know what though, boiloff really has nothing to do with efficiency. Even if you boil off an extra gallon and then topup a gallon, your efficiency numbers would be the same (unless you left wort behind).

Also, did you accurately measure your runnings to know for sure how much you had preboil? Maybe you undersparged and only had 5/6 gallons?

Did you break the batch sparge into two smaller infusions or did you do one large one?
 
FWIW ... I brewed early saturday morning ... it was 28 degrees at 6am, and the forecast was for mid 30s during boil time. According to my 90 minute boil grid, I needed to boil 38 quarts ---NINE AND A HALF GALLONS -- to get 5 1/2 into the fermenter.

Remember, you don't only BOIL off ... you lose volume during sparges (I do two), bringing the wort UP to boil, and the 30 or minutes the chiller does its thing.

Its really important you know what your system yields under various conditions ... don't take anyone else's (or software's) word for it.
 
Bobby_M said:
Alright, deep breath...

I can't believe you brewed today with the wind.. gusts of 40mph. Brave! I suspect that wind adds a lot to boiloff.

Did you leave any wort behind in the kettle at all? You used my keggle right so did you maybe forget to add hose to the output in order to pull a siphon to get all the wort out? I can't imagine a 3 gallon boil off in only 75 minutes.

You know what though, boiloff really has nothing to do with efficiency. Even if you boil off an extra gallon and then topup a gallon, your efficiency numbers would be the same (unless you left wort behind).

Also, did you accurately measure your runnings to know for sure how much you had preboil? Maybe you undersparged and only had 5/6 gallons?

Did you break the batch sparge into two smaller infusions or did you do one large one?
Click to expand...

Thanks for everyones replies. The weather did suck but I like the cold much more than heat. Bobby, I left maaaybe 1/2 gallon in the keggle but I don't think even that much. It was probably more like 1/4 gallon. I know I had 6.5 gallons in the keggle pre-boil. The gravity of the 3.5 gallons in my fermenter was 1.049 before the topping up. The sparge was broken into 2 segments with the first being about 2/3's my total sparge volume. I really don't understand how I hit my mash temp, had ok sparge temps, and ended up with horrible efficiency. My pre-boil gravity must have been a joke!
 
What temp did you measure your post boil wort at? If it was 130 degrees you need to add several points to your O.G. Im assuming you know this
 
gonzoflick said:
What temp did you measure your post boil wort at? If it was 130 degrees you need to add several points to your O.G. Im assuming you know this
Click to expand...

Yeah the 1.049 I mentioned was with hydrometer adjustment. I think the temp was like 68 when I checked. Trust me, this one's not easy to figure out :(
 
I will add one positive of the day though. I went from heating my water to capping the carboy in 4 hours and 15 minutes. Quicker than I expected for sure...
 
Yikes! Sorry to hear that your first AG was a nightmare. :( Hopefully you will have better luck next time. I expect my first attempt at AG will be quite interesting.
 
njnear76 said:
Yikes! Sorry to hear that your first AG was a nightmare. :( Hopefully you will have better luck next time. I expect my first attempt at AG will be quite interesting.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike. Its just really weird because I'm not new to mashing. I don't see how my efficiency was sooo low. As far as boiloff goes, I now see from Beersmith that I should've started closer to 7.85 gallons. I'm brewing the same recipe again this weekend. Hopefully it won't be another wash...
 
Not sure on this one..I know when I first started out all grain after several Partial mashs..I figured even if I had a game plan... my eff. would be low; so I adjusted my grain bill by about 15% to 20%..I hit it right on..I have gradually improved and now hit low 70 to 75..This after only 5 all grain batches. As for the boil off I would imagine the weather had something to do with it, I think the wind will help the steam come out of the kettle and remove it quicker, but that much?? not sure

Jay
 
discgolfin said:
so I adjusted my grain bill by about 15% to 20%..I hit it right on..
Click to expand...
Hmmm... I was thinking about doing the same thing for my first AG batch. I plan on reformulating the recipe for 6 gallons and 70% efficiency. Collecting 7 -7.5 gallons pre-boil depending on weather conditions and boiling down to 6 gallons. I read some where that you will lose about .5 gallons from cold break and hot break. I want 5.5 in the fermenter. I plan on having a pound or two of DME in case I really mess up my pre-boil OG.

Soulive21, you might want to check out my calculator/directions that I'm working on. It might be useful. Unfortunately it hasn't been properly tested yet, but the figures seem right based on what I got from other websites, Palmer's How to Brew book, and people's experience from HomeBrewTalk. I plan on testing it properly in the near future. :D
 
njnear76 said:
Hmmm... I was thinking about doing the same thing for my first AG batch. I plan on reformulating the recipe for 6 gallons and 70% efficiency. Collecting 7 -7.5 gallons pre-boil depending on weather conditions and boiling down to 6 gallons. I read some where that you will lose about .5 gallons from cold break and hot break. I want 5.5 in the fermenter. I plan on having a pound or two of DME in case I really mess up my pre-boil OG.

Soulive21, you might want to check out my calculator/directions that I'm working on. It might be useful. Unfortunately it hasn't been properly tested yet, but the figures seem right based on what I got from other websites, Palmer's How to Brew book, and people's experience from HomeBrewTalk. I plan on testing it properly in the near future. :D
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. I actually just cleaned out the keggle at lunch and noticed there was about another gallon in there. The filter must have hid that stuff from our view :drunk:
 
Hey you know what, I forgot to warn you that all pellet hops + an IC (cold break) doesn't work with that hopstopper clone. I forgot because it's been a really long time since I used an IC. When you use a CFC, the cold break forms AFTER the wort goes through the filter and it just dumps into the fermenter. I'd go ahead and remove the screen if you continue to use an IC (leave the dip tube in though). The screen is just held on with a hose clamp. I currently also use nylon hop bags for pellet hops to keep it out of the primary.
 
Soulive21 said:
Thanks for the link. I actually just cleaned out the keggle at lunch and noticed there was about another gallon in there. The filter must have hid that stuff from our view :drunk:
Click to expand...

Weird. Did you measure it? I bet it is more than a gallon.

A loss of 1.5 makes sense in very dry conditions for a 70 minute boil.
 
Bobby_M said:
Hey you know what, I forgot to warn you that all pellet hops + an IC (cold break) doesn't work with that hopstopper clone. I forgot because it's been a really long time since I used an IC. When you use a CFC, the cold break forms AFTER the wort goes through the filter and it just dumps into the fermenter. I'd go ahead and remove the screen if you continue to use an IC (leave the dip tube in though). The screen is just held on with a hose clamp. I currently also use nylon hop bags for pellet hops to keep it out of the primary.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm taking the hopstopper off next time, but I used the nylon bags for my hops. Beersmith is saying I should've started with 7.25 gallons, so that and removing the filter should help next time. Doesn't really explain the efficiency though...
 
New equipment brings a learning curve for sure and I'm always messing around with the process. I hope to finally complete my brewstand sometime around new years. My resolution? Stop brewing on makeshift brewstands made from plastic shelving and little giant ladder clones.
 
Bobby_M said:
New equipment brings a learning curve for sure and I'm always messing around with the process. I hope to finally complete my brewstand sometime around new years. My resolution? Stop brewing on makeshift brewstands made from plastic shelving and little giant ladder clones.
Click to expand...

I'm considering some kind of plastic shelving setup to utilize gravity :rockin:
 
Soulive21 said:
Yeah I don't get it. When partial mashing I never had that low efficiency. It won't even be drinkable since the IBUs are 70 and the OG is 1.049. That's just not good...Help!
Click to expand...

Sounds like a perfectly good APA to me!
 
I did my first AG brew today with similar results unfortunately. I just freaked out and didn't even think about adding DME to the boil. I think my Mash efficiency was like 40%!! I just went ahead and boiled but ended up with 1.040 pitch gravity. I get 1.071 when I use the same recipe with partial mash. I did not split the batch sparge in two. How much do you think that made a difference? I had no temperature degradation in the Mash Tun. I can't figure it out. I pitched and the batch is fermenting, but I am considering tossing it and starting over. The recipe is a Bear Rep. Hop Rod Rye clone.
 
Not splitting your sparge is worth at least 5-10% and if you sparged too cold, that's maybe another 5%. After that it could be your crush or undersparge maybe?

How much preboil wort did you collect?
 
Bobby_M said:
Not splitting your sparge is worth at least 5-10% and if you sparged too cold, that's maybe another 5%. After that it could be your crush or undersparge maybe?

How much preboil wort did you collect?
Click to expand...

7 Gallons preboil. I sparged with 4 gallons of 170f water. I just made this mash tun out of a maxcold cooler which has some dead space of about 1 quart. I used a Bazooka Screen instead of a manifold. My mash in with 171 strike water got me to 152 perfectly and it stayed there for an hour. Is this beer worth salvaging or should I dump it and start over. It's quite actively fermenting.

Thank you for replying.
 
I'd stick with it. See how it comes out.

Mash deadspace doesn't really affect efficiency all that much as long as you get the preboil volume you were looking for. Did you happen to test the OG of the well-mixed preboil wort?
 
Bobby_M said:
I'd stick with it. See how it comes out.

Mash deadspace doesn't really affect efficiency all that much as long as you get the preboil volume you were looking for. Did you happen to test the OG of the well-mixed preboil wort?
Click to expand...

I did test it but forgot to do a good mix first. I had already begun heating the kettle when i took it at 1.018 @ 175f. promash adjusts to 1.045.
 
korndog said:
I used a Bazooka Screen instead of a manifold.
Click to expand...

I've heard that Bazooka screens aren't all that great on efficiency. My last batch, the first one with the new mashtun that has a Bazooka, had some lousy efficiency, too. I can't blame the Bazooka, as it could have been rust on the brewing joints (i.e., I haven't brewed much in the last year), coupled with the fact that I was something of a headless chicken during the last brew session (due to other things).

I'll try it again this weekend.


TL
 
TexLaw said:
I've heard that Bazooka screens aren't all that great on efficiency. My last batch, the first one with the new mashtun that has a Bazooka, had some lousy efficiency, too. I can't blame the Bazooka, as it could have been rust on the brewing joints (i.e., I haven't brewed much in the last year), coupled with the fact that I was something of a headless chicken during the last brew session (due to other things).

I'll try it again this weekend.


TL
Click to expand...

thanks for the reply. I'm off to HD to pick up parts for a manifold today.
 
korndog said:
7 Gallons preboil. I sparged with 4 gallons of 170f water. I just made this mash tun out of a maxcold cooler which has some dead space of about 1 quart. I used a Bazooka Screen instead of a manifold. My mash in with 171 strike water got me to 152 perfectly and it stayed there for an hour. Is this beer worth salvaging or should I dump it and start over. It's quite actively fermenting.

Thank you for replying.
Click to expand...
I did corona clone my OG ended up @1.039 I bottled it up tasted the first bottle after 2 weeks WEAKKKKK almost pitched but my wife likes the light stuff, down to the last bottle, damn good stuff.
My first few batches AG had 40-60% effeciency. I stuck with a cheap recipe and tweaked everything untill I now have 80+% effeciency. I now measure out my grains and put them in the freezer untill brew time, I picked up a Maltmill so set my grains out for ~1/2hr then crush. I also started using a 5.2 PH mash stabalizer which improved Eff ~20+%. I use a measuring stick for my boil i.e. start with 6.5 gal as I get close to 1hr measure volume and get a sample to check OG (add DME if needed) when I get to 5.25gal I stop boiling. Now I can try the spendier recipes and with 80+% they aren't so spendy.
 
hjherbenson said:
I did corona clone my OG ended up @1.039 I bottled it up tasted the first bottle after 2 weeks WEAKKKKK almost pitched but my wife likes the light stuff, down to the last bottle, damn good stuff.
My first few batches AG had 40-60% effeciency. I stuck with a cheap recipe and tweaked everything untill I now have 80+% effeciency. I now measure out my grains and put them in the freezer untill brew time, I picked up a Maltmill so set my grains out for ~1/2hr then crush. I also started using a 5.2 PH mash stabalizer which improved Eff ~20+%. I use a measuring stick for my boil i.e. start with 6.5 gal as I get close to 1hr measure volume and get a sample to check OG (add DME if needed) when I get to 5.25gal I stop boiling. Now I can try the spendier recipes and with 80+% they aren't so spendy.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm.... interesting. Where do you order this 5.2 PH mash stabalizer stuff? How many AGs can you get out of it?
 
Unless you suspect (or test) your PH, I wouldn't assume it's off (I'm talking to the NJ guys). Since we all probably have about the same water supply, I think it's ok. I haven't tested but pulling 90% efficiency is a pretty good indicator.
 
Bobby_M said:
Unless you suspect (or test) your PH, I wouldn't assume it's off (I'm talking to the NJ guys). Since we all probably have about the same water supply, I think it's ok. I haven't tested but pulling 90% efficiency is a pretty good indicator.
Click to expand...
I've been using bottled water, actually, because the water from the D&R Canal has chloramine and tastes bad in my opinion
 
I use bottled water from Stop & Shop. By the way, this F'ed up beer is not spontaneously fermenting. Maybe I'll have Ed's House Lambic on my hands...
 
Soulive21 said:
I use bottled water from Stop & Shop. By the way, this F'ed up beer is not spontaneously fermenting. Maybe I'll have Ed's House Lambic on my hands...
Click to expand...
I use Stop and Shop brand too. I've been looking for a water analysis sheet on the internet, but can't find it. It might be useful to know that info for AG.
Mike
 
njnear76 said:
I use Stop and Shop brand too. I've been looking for a water analysis sheet on the internet, but can't find it. It might be useful to know that info for AG.
Mike
Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not. I can say though that the 2 times I've added gypsum to the water, I've had higher efficiency (with partial-mash). Maybe the S&S water is a little too soft...
 

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