GFI outlet question

Does a GFI outlet require a dedicated circuit ?

I have 2 GFI's in the basement, each on dedicated circuits...I just replaced a faulty outlet in the basement with a GFI..it is on the same breaker as the lighting -- is this wrong ?

kappclark said:

Does a GFI outlet require a dedicated circuit ?

I have 2 GFI's in the basement, each on dedicated circuits...I just replaced a faulty outlet in the basement with a GFI..it is on the same breaker as the lighting -- is this wrong ?

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No GFCI's do not require a dedicated circuit. However, they are normally in circuits that are required to have ground fault protection. The way I wire them, is to have the GFCI as the first plug, then chain and protect all the plugs downstream from the GFCI.

Not only is it not wrong, it's exactly what you should do if the faulty plug wasn't protected by an upstream GFCI. Lights in basement are not required to have fault protection.

Nope, they don't require a dedicated circuit. As long as you installed it correctly, everything wired past the GFI will be protected by the one you installed.

So, no problem having your lights on the same circuit.

My home is old and two of the outlets are still 2 prong (Silly me for waiting to change them huh!). The real important thing to remember is that the initial wiring feeding the GFCI is grounded properly. Without the proper grounding potential, a GFCI will not do its job.

All devices down stream of the GFCI are protected.

Salute!

Thanks --

I did the test on the outlet using the test button, and it works...

Nothing is wired "downstream" of the actual outlet (only 1 pair of wires + ground to outlet) , but good to know I do not need a dedicated 120 circuit.

I'm by no means an expert, but I researched this just the other day for putting an GFCI protected outlet inside my refrigerated bar. My GFCI outlet had "line" and "load" posts. My research indicated that everything wired to the load posts would be protected by the GFCI. Also, I used the test button and it interrupted the outlet inside my bar.

bmckee56 said:

The real important thing to remember is that the initial wiring feeding the GFCI is grounded properly. Without the proper grounding potential, a GFCI will not do its job.

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This is not correct. A ground is not required in order for a GFCI to work properly. A GFCI works by comparing the current between the hot and neutral of the outlet. An imbalance between the legs indicates current leakage and the GFCI will cut off the power through it's internal breaker. IIRC, GFCI's are generally not recommended for use on refrigerators and freezers (and some other critical power applications) as they can sometimes trip when some inconsequential imbalance is detected and that can result in a lot of spoiled food. Should this happen while you are away from home on vacation it can be horrendous. Even if you are home and don't notice that it tripped for a day or two it would be a bummer. Many older homes have only the two prong outlets and no ground wire at all. Often the two prong receptacles are replaced with three prong outlets, but the ground is not connected to anything and there is no easy way to retrofit a ground wire in most cases. The safe solution is to install a GFCI breaker in the panel or as the first outlet in a circuit. I'm not an electrician, so YMMV and I would suggest consulting a licensed professional if you have any doubts about this stuff.

Catt22 said:

This is not correct. A ground is not required in order for a GFCI to work properly.

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Thank you for correcting my mistake, I stand corrected. I am not by trade an electrician and admit my ignorance of NEC code. I just found this information on the internet:

What happens when you're working at a previously unprotected location that now requires GFCI protection? It's no longer acceptable to replace an old, unprotected receptacle with a new, unprotected receptacle. Per 406.3(D)(2), you now must install a GFCI-protected device.

What if you come across a non-grounding type receptacle or an old 2-wire NM cable without a ground? These receptacles can be replaced with one of the following:

Another non-grounding type receptacle.

A GFCI-receptacle, if marked “No Equipment Ground.”

A grounding type receptacle, if GFCI protected and marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.”

The equipment-grounding conductor plays no part in the operation of a GFCI, so it will provide ground-fault protection even on a 2-wire circuit without an equipment-grounding conductor.

Salute!

Although not related to the GFCI issue, but something to consider is how much load you place on the receptacle. IIRC lights are run with 14ga and generally connected to a 15A breaker, where receptacles are on 12ga and 20A breakers. Probably not an issue if you haven't had problems with the breaker tripping in the past, but I also have an older home and the outdoor floods that a PO installed were on a 15A breaker, along with a receptacle. I pulled out the receptacle and wiring when I had my walls open and installed a new dedicated 20A circuit for the receptacle (added another one, too for power tools/spaceheater). I also am not an electrician, so I looked up all the codes before I did anything. Before you go doing any work like that I suggest you consult a pro, look up the codes and get permits.

trigger said:

Although not related to the GFCI issue, but something to consider is how much load you place on the receptacle. IIRC lights are run with 14ga and generally connected to a 15A breaker, where receptacles are on 12ga and 20A breakers. Probably not an issue if you haven't had problems with the breaker tripping in the past, but I also have an older home and the outdoor floods that a PO installed were on a 15A breaker, along with a receptacle. I pulled out the receptacle and wiring when I had my walls open and installed a new dedicated 20A circuit for the receptacle (added another one, too for power tools/spaceheater). I also am not an electrician, so I looked up all the codes before I did anything. Before you go doing any work like that I suggest you consult a pro, look up the codes and get permits.

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I'm not an electrician or anything close to one, but IIRC, there is a reason why all household circuits are not installed with 20 amp breakers. IIRC, it has to do with the possibility that an appliance may malfunction, short out and possibly cause a fire before actually drawing enough current to trip the 20 amp breaker. This is the reason that the receptacles are different for a 20 amp circuit. The slots are different to prevent the insertion of a regular appliance plug by mistake. One slot is horizontal and the other "t" shaped which requires a matching plug such as on some of the larger window air conditioners. Maybe a real electrician can enlighten us more on this. I may have it all wrong, so don't rely only by what I've posted. I think it is safe upgrade wiring from 14 ga to 12 ga for most circuits, but the breaker for most household circuits should be only a 15 amp.

The important thing to remember is that the GFCI outlet OP installed is not a breaker. The entire circuit (Lights, then GFCI load) is protected by the panel breaker - Most likely 15 amp. Even if it's a 20 amp GFCI receptacle, the circuit will trip when the load of the lights, and anything plugged into the outlet exceed 15 amps.

I don't know about any code that says a residential circuit can't be more than 20 amps. But 15 is certainly the most common. I think lights are usually wired with 14 gauge wire, just to save cost. And those conductors are only rated for 15 amps.
But in my house, all of the receptacles are wired with 12 gauge (Yellow) wire, rated for 20 amps - Though they are still on 15 amp breakers...

GFCI plugs will only protect stuff wired after the receptacle, when those circuits are connected to the "Load" terminals of the GFCI plug.

Catt22 said:

I'm not an electrician or anything close to one, but IIRC, there is a reason why all household circuits are not installed with 20 amp breakers. IIRC, it has to do with the possibility that an appliance may malfunction, short out and possibly cause a fire before actually drawing enough current to trip the 20 amp breaker. This is the reason that the receptacles are different for a 20 amp circuit. The slots are different to prevent the insertion of a regular appliance plug by mistake. One slot is horizontal and the other "t" shaped which requires a matching plug such as on some of the larger window air conditioners. Maybe a real electrician can enlighten us more on this. I may have it all wrong, so don't rely only by what I've posted. I think it is safe upgrade wiring from 14 ga to 12 ga for most circuits, but the breaker for most household circuits should be only a 15 amp.

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Nope, 20A breakers are called for in bathroom receptacles, with or without more receptacles downstream. These are installed with your standard 15A duplex GFCI. The reason why this is permissible is the GFCI has a 20A pass-thru capacity, and 15A at the prongs for either of the single outlets. This is getting off topic, though. I was just suggesting to OP that he looks at what he plans on drawing (beer making wise) and adjust accordingly.

trigger said:

Nope, 20A breakers are called for in bathroom receptacles, with or without more receptacles downstream. These are installed with your standard 15A duplex GFCI. The reason why this is permissible is the GFCI has a 20A pass-thru capacity, and 15A at the prongs for either of the single outlets. This is getting off topic, though. I was just suggesting to OP that he looks at what he plans on drawing (beer making wise) and adjust accordingly.

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Thanks. Good to get the information from someone with expertise in the field.

I'm definitely far from an expert electrician, but I did the research and passed inspection when I re-ran my electrical service and installed the new circuit. The best advice is to call an electrician and take internet advice as a starting point. As I said before, get permits and get inspected and don't do anything you aren't comfortable with.

Well - bye bye bucket heaters...

One continually trips the gfi, and now the other one ... I suspect that they are not as tolerant of the moisture/steam as they once were ...one works fine when totally dry, and last brew got me through...came down this AM, and 1 was going fine on GFI, other keeps tripping GFI .. once I turned off the first (working) heater, then turned it back on, GFI tripped ...not sure they can/should be repaired..

Glad I am still breathing here to tell this tale of electrical woe..

I am back to heating the sparge water on the stove ... beautiful day, so I don't mind slogging the water ...

kappclark said:

Does a GFI outlet require a dedicated circuit ?

I have 2 GFI's in the basement, each on dedicated circuits...I just replaced a faulty outlet in the basement with a GFI..it is on the same breaker as the lighting -- is this wrong ?

Click to expand...

make sure when you hit the test button that the lights don't turn off

SweetSounds said:

I don't know about any code that says a residential circuit can't be more than 20 amps. But 15 is certainly the most common. I think lights are usually wired with 14 gauge wire, just to save cost. And those conductors are only rated for 15 amps.
But in my house, all of the receptacles are wired with 12 gauge (Yellow) wire, rated for 20 amps - Though they are still on 15 amp breakers....

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I don't what to thread jack but I wonder if this is a regional thing. I had never heard of a house being wired with 15A breakers for the outlets before I got on this board.

And I wonder why a house would be wired with 12ga wire being fed by a 15A breaker. There is really no difference in cost between a 15A and 20A breaker. Why install the more expensive wire and then limit the amperage?

It could be for voltage drop. The farther the circuit is away from the panel the more you have to take that into account... Also, a circuit is only as good as it's weakest point. If you have 12awg and 14awg wire on the same circuit, it can only have a 15amp breaker on it.