The "bad advice I got from the LBHS" thread

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Pickngrin

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With the invaluable wealth of knowledge shared by wise brewers on the internet (dating years back from the original Homebrew Digest to this fine site), I find it interesting to every so often hear some downright inaccurate or bad advice from local homebrew shops.
There is a place I frequent, and I like the guys there. However, on my last visit, I was told that mashing should only be done up to 153 degrees, because 154 degrees is the critical temperature at which the alpha/beta amylase ratio changes (or something to that effect). I can't think of any area of brewing in which there is zero margin of error.

Last weekend, that shop was unexpectedly closed, and I had to go to the other shop in this area. I was looking in the yeast fridge for Wyeast 2112 - California lager. The owner was trying to explain to me that there is no "California lager" yeast, and that I was thinking of American lager. Finally, he pulled out the Wyeast brochure and lo and behold, there it was. He just doesn't carry it. I wasn't arguing with him and am not a "see-I-told-you" kind of guy, but I've heard him dispense some unusual brewing advice in the past, so I was a bit leery about going in there to begin with.

Anyone get any bad advice from a LBHS?
 
There is plenty of bad advice both at shops as well as on the old Information Superhighway. That's why it's always a good idea to have your own sources of brewing information, like from a book or two. While for a lot of brewing questions there is no single right answer a grasp of the basic concepts will help in asking the right question and separating the wheat from the chaff among the answers.
 
I've had constant bad advice from my brew shop. The shop is run by hippies. It's also a plant shop, but I think the guys running it are there primarily for growing. It's some sort of indoor hydroponic pot head thing.

Anyways, every time I go in there, if I have a question I'm pointed towards one guy. If he's not in, I get to listen to some amazingly complex line of BS from the kids that don't know what they're talking about. Sometimes I just ask questions to see what kind of answer I'll get...even if I know the right answer. When I went to the cash register to buy 6' of beer lines for my keg system, the guy asked me why I was buying so much. He then went on to claim that 1' lines are plenty long enough.

I've learned to not rely on my LHBS. I think I've known more about brewing than them since my 3rd batch. I did alot of reading on homebrewing before I even brewed my first batch. I still read a lot, just because you can never really know everything. I'd rather rely on myself than someone who doesn't quite seem to know what they're doing.
 
I am lucky enough to have a great LHBS guy, but if you think about it, there's probably alot of average, avid homebrewers opening shops. There's no guarantee that any shop owner has studied brewing beyond the comfort of his/her own home/brewing set-up. I know there's probably going to be some retaliation from that statement, but it's most likely true. I know there ARE alot of advanced brewer's running shops and as I originally said, I would trade my LHBS guy for anybody. Another that comes to mind -I'm not sure exactly what Bobby M does, but I know his title says vendor and I've thought I've received very good advice from him.:mug:
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
He then went on to claim that 1' lines are plenty long enough.
Click to expand...

That's similar to the only bad piece of advice I've gotten from my LHBS to date. I went in to look at their kegging package and it came with 2' of 1/4" ID vinyl tubing as a serving line. He said it would be plenty... maybe if you served at 2psi ha ha ha! Now I have 10' of 3/16" ID and serve at 12psi.
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
Sometimes I just ask questions to see what kind of answer I'll get...even if I know the right answer.
Click to expand...

When I was shopping for the SWMBO's wed ring, I received this advice from the guy I eventually bought from. It's the best test to see if (1) Someone knows what they're talking about and (2) if they're trying to screw you.
 
The HBS that sold me my very first set up had a guy working in it that obviously doesnt even know what is going on. He sold me the wrong size bung for the carboy I got, He didnt tell me how important sanitizer was and didnt tell me i needed to buy any at all, he told me to bottle my beer by dipping a pitcher into the bucket and filling the bottle with the pitcher, and he told me the instructions in the pre hopped extract kit he sold me were accurate. They were in fact some of the worse instructions I have ever seen. He also told me the Toronto tap water would be fine to use, and while I still dont know EXACTLY how accurate that is, I doubt very much that it is
 
I can proudly say that I've never gotten bad advice from my LHBS. He may not have the answers to all my questions but he'll never make anything up just to have an answer.
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
I've had constant bad advice from my brew shop. The shop is run by hippies. It's also a plant shop, but I think the guys running it are there primarily for growing. It's some sort of indoor hydroponic pot head thing.

Anyways, every time I go in there, if I have a question I'm pointed towards one guy. If he's not in, I get to listen to some amazingly complex line of BS from the kids that don't know what they're talking about. Sometimes I just ask questions to see what kind of answer I'll get...even if I know the right answer. When I went to the cash register to buy 6' of beer lines for my keg system, the guy asked me why I was buying so much. He then went on to claim that 1' lines are plenty long enough.

I've learned to not rely on my LHBS. I think I've known more about brewing than them since my 3rd batch. I did alot of reading on homebrewing before I even brewed my first batch. I still read a lot, just because you can never really know everything. I'd rather rely on myself than someone who doesn't quite seem to know what they're doing.
Click to expand...

I know who you are talking about. Their chicago location is much better for the brew info.
 
First thing that comes to mind is that i was told that liquid yeast doesn't need a starter. So I thought that starters must be for dry yeast then, but then after reading here I find that it is the opposite.
 
When I first started brewing, I went into some little dinky camera/homebrew shop where the owner was telling me that this can of extract would make a beer like X, and this one like Y. But in hindsight, they were such ridiculous comparisons, based solely on country of origin of the extract (I think he told me that the Dutch extract would make a Heineken-like beer...as if that were alluring).
 
I guess that we're lucky in Vangroovy, BC. Dan's is the only game in town and I have no complaints.

He may not carry everything, but with some knowledge about this craft you realize that he really has everything. Plus, he keeps me down to earth. His no-bulls**t take on homebrewing keeps me grounded on not getting wound up on all of the conflicting opinions, and going with a tried and true style. He's like a guru - I don't agree with everything he says; but, if I get to out of shape and confused in a thought process, he, at least, has an experienced answer to work me through it.

Oh yeah ... I've tried his beer. Awesome! That has to count for something.
 
I was told it would take several thousands of dollars to go all grain. They leave their hops in unsealed bags in direct sunlight and sell them 10$ per 25g. I've switched LHBS for ingredients.

I still go back to the first one; it's a lot closer, good for buying caps and renting bottling equipment.
 
Dauntless said:
I was told it would take several thousands of dollars to go all grain. They leave their hops in unsealed bags in direct sunlight and sell them 10$ per 25g. I've switched LHBS for ingredients.

I still go back to the first one; it's a lot closer, good for buying caps and renting bottling equipment.
Click to expand...

Renting bottling equipment? What do you rent?
 
We get threads like this all the time.... remember, not every proprieter reads every forum or book or listens to every podcast, so the last book or info they may have learned may be in Papazian from 30 years ago. They also may only brew kits. Or simply JUST be of the "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" mentality.

But not every person, especially one of those "you can't teach an old dog" types aren't going to be up on the latest ideas.

Remember to a lot of LHBS'er or employees, it is only a job..not an obsession...so they are not always as necessarily passionate, or zealous learning new things, or trying new techniques, like we are....SOme even though they have been in the business forever, may never had progressed in the hobby beyond extract kits...some may rarely brew at all.

So often it is not surprising that we know more or are at least in touch with more info that someone who does it for a living....

I'm lucky I have quite a few homebrew shops to choose from, one that I can walk to, although his selection is limited due to not a lot of business (which we hb'ers in town are trying to correct)- AND he just told me that it looks like he might be moving right across the street from my loft

(and opening a pico-winery and perhaps a brew on premise)

Then halfway between work and home, around the corner from my sister's house is the Holy mecca of Homebrew shops, Cap N Cork (which IIRC is the first hbs in metro detroit) it's large, has a high turnover so ingredients are fresh, and has quite a few employees, most of who are a passionate about brewing as we are...but even there you have a few oldtimers, who don't read every book, or look at forums, so they might not be up on the latest things...

One thing to remember, This is an ever evolving hobby...Places like this is where you find the most state of the art information/wisdom about brewing, because of the sheer number of us trying new things, hearing new things, and even breaking new ground and contributing to the body of info on the hobby...Look at some of that inventions that came out of here, and then ended up later in BYO articles by our members...

It is podcasts and forums like this where you will find a lot more state of the art, or current views, and even scientific information...I mean if Jamil, John Palmer or Papazian even farts on a podcast, one of us beergeeks are going to start a thread on it within 10 minutes.

So if you are dealing with ab old school LHBS owner/employee...don't back down, and don't let him get to you...

Remember- It is HUMAN nature to scorn that which we don't understand... It even happens on here sometimes, when someone attempt to break new ground, or suggest something different from common wisdom (we still get people who scorn the idea of long primaries, and still believe in autolysis)...but it really is not the norm here.

But not necessarily "out there" in the world of Home brew shops.

In fact if you have one like that, Don't even tell him what you are doing buy your stuff, give him your money, and whistle your way out the door..knowing that what you might be attempting is probably light years ahead of HIS knowlege base.....
 
Pickngrin said:
but I've heard him dispense some unusual brewing advice in the past, so I was a bit leery about going in there to begin with.

Anyone get any bad advice from a LBHS?
Click to expand...

Talking about the one on Murphy Rd? If so, he's the same guy who told me anyone who goes all-gran is nuts and there's no reason to do so. But with the prices he charges for extract, I can see why. Not to bad-mouth too hard, but I've had alot of bad experiences there.
 
I have nothing but good stuff to say about the one HBS that I go to. AHS has a great staff and they are well educated. I wish they would put a branch here in College Station so I didn't have to drive . . . . but at least their shipping is cheep.
 
Austin is a bit different. Everyone knows about them. There's a reason why they do so much business and it's because they know what they're doing. I don't even know if I'd concider them a LHBS either since it's such a large company.
 
I've been lucky enough to never receive bad advice from LHBS. Great guys over there with good knowledge. If they dont know it, they will walk next door and talk to the guys at the brewery that is attached.

The brewery attached just won Small Brewery of the Year at GABF. Big props to Dry Dock:tank:
 
riored4v said:
I've been lucky enough to never receive bad advice from LHBS. Great guys over there with good knowledge. If they dont know it, they will walk next door and talk to the guys at the brewery that is attached.

The brewery attached just won Small Brewery of the Year at GABF. Big props to Dry Dock:tank:
Click to expand...

Kinda the same thing with me. Ballast Point is connected to Homebrewmart, the staff is the same. Awesome for some info and sampling stuff.
 
Dauntless said:
I rent a vinator, a bottle rack and a bench capper for about 3$

As for wonky beer advice, my LHBS is really wine oriented. It's just not their fault.
Click to expand...

I also rent a bottle capper every once in awhile. I only do wines once a year, so I don't see the point in spending $120 on a floor capper when I can rent one for $5.
 
"spalt hops are a perfect substitute for cascade"

I stopped by a shop I'd never been to before cause I was in the neighborhood.
There was a guy in there buying stuff for his first brew.
Along with the ingrediant kit he was sold
A carboy
a carboy handle
a carboy cap

No sanitizer
no bottling bucket
no hydrometer
no thermometer
no caps
no capper
no priming sugar
no racking cane , or tubing
HBS shop guy told him
"that's all you need"
:confused:
 
dzlater said:
There was a guy in there buying stuff for his first brew.
Along with the ingrediant kit he was sold
A carboy
a carboy handle
a carboy cap

No sanitizer
no bottling bucket
no hydrometer
no thermometer
no caps
no capper
no priming sugar
no racking cane , or tubing
HBS shop guy told him
"that's all you need"
:confused:
Click to expand...

I hope you took him aside and sent him in the right direction, thats just disgraceful. not sure what he was expected to do when he got home
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
I also rent a bottle capper every once in awhile. I only do wines once a year, so I don't see the point in spending $120 on a floor capper when I can rent one for $5.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about a corker for wine bottles, or a capper for beer bottles? You can get a cast iron boat anchor of a capper that'll last you till kingdom come for ~$10 from ebay. Just buy a "vintage" or "antique" one. I have one that looks more or less like this one:

309361173_tp.jpg


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360196668989

If you are talking about a corker, then yeah renting is the way to go, though I have seen the shorter, red, portuguese-made floor corkers going for ~$60-70...
 
pivot676 said:
I hope you took him aside and sent him in the right direction, thats just disgraceful. not sure what he was expected to do when he got home
Click to expand...

I did not get a chance to talk to him outside.
But I did tell him to listen to some podcasts
and check out the HBT forums, and the on line version of How To Brew
He seemed pretty sharp, and I'm sure he'll
figure it out. He was already talking about doing all grain,
so he must have done some research.
What I don't get is that HBS guy could have sold him at least
$50 worth of stuff the guy is going to need any way.:confused:
 
Smeckel said:
Talking about the one on Murphy Rd? If so, he's the same guy who told me anyone who goes all-gran is nuts and there's no reason to do so. But with the prices he charges for extract, I can see why. Not to bad-mouth too hard, but I've had alot of bad experiences there.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the one. The size of the store is impressive, but beyond that, I'm far from impressed. Anyone who goes all-grain is nuts? LOL!
 
Very good points, Revvy, and eloquently put.

Revvy said:
We get threads like this all the time.... remember, not every proprieter reads every forum or book or listens to every podcast, so the last book or info they may have learned may be in Papazian from 30 years ago. They also may only brew kits. Or simply JUST be of the "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" mentality.

But not every person, especially one of those "you can't teach an old dog" types aren't going to be up on the latest ideas.

Remember to a lot of LHBS'er or employees, it is only a job..not an obsession...so they are not always as necessarily passionate, or zealous learning new things, or trying new techniques, like we are....SOme even though they have been in the business forever, may never had progressed in the hobby beyond extract kits...some may rarely brew at all.

So often it is not surprising that we know more or are at least in touch with more info that someone who does it for a living....

I'm lucky I have quite a few homebrew shops to choose from, one that I can walk to, although his selection is limited due to not a lot of business (which we hb'ers in town are trying to correct)- AND he just told me that it looks like he might be moving right across the street from my loft

(and opening a pico-winery and perhaps a brew on premise)

Then halfway between work and home, around the corner from my sister's house is the Holy mecca of Homebrew shops, Cap N Cork (which IIRC is the first hbs in metro detroit) it's large, has a high turnover so ingredients are fresh, and has quite a few employees, most of who are a passionate about brewing as we are...but even there you have a few oldtimers, who don't read every book, or look at forums, so they might not be up on the latest things...

One thing to remember, This is an ever evolving hobby...Places like this is where you find the most state of the art information/wisdom about brewing, because of the sheer number of us trying new things, hearing new things, and even breaking new ground and contributing to the body of info on the hobby...Look at some of that inventions that came out of here, and then ended up later in BYO articles by our members...

It is podcasts and forums like this where you will find a lot more state of the art, or current views, and even scientific information...I mean if Jamil, John Palmer or Papazian even farts on a podcast, one of us beergeeks are going to start a thread on it within 10 minutes.

So if you are dealing with ab old school LHBS owner/employee...don't back down, and don't let him get to you...

Remember- It is HUMAN nature to scorn that which we don't understand... It even happens on here sometimes, when someone attempt to break new ground, or suggest something different from common wisdom (we still get people who scorn the idea of long primaries, and still believe in autolysis)...but it really is not the norm here.

But not necessarily "out there" in the world of Home brew shops.

In fact if you have one like that, Don't even tell him what you are doing buy your stuff, give him your money, and whistle your way out the door..knowing that what you might be attempting is probably light years ahead of HIS knowlege base.....
Click to expand...
 
You can be suprised. I went to a very well thought of store. I told the guy helping me I wanted to start lagering. I got all of my goods and asked a procedural question. He said "It doesn't matter if you're making ale or lager. You do it the same way, temperature and all, just use a different yeast. It's the yeast that makes it an ale or lager". In retrospect, I should have quietly talked to the manager. If I were running a shop, I would want to know. Plus, the more shops, the merrier. - Dwain
 
The thing that gets me about bad advice is; If they just started giving good advice, they might keep the newbies into the hobby.

I did enough research before my first batches that I never had any major problems. The beer turned out great and I was hooked from there. BUT, I had a friend who listened to the LHBS, he brewed a koelsch, and it turned out horrible. He hasn't brewed since, even though he spent all that money getting into the hobby.
 
My bad LHBS advice (one gem of many): Making a strong scottish ale (second brew ever), and took the recipe into the store. The recipe I found online called for 9+ pounds of liquid amber extract, and the LHBS guy looked at it and said 'Oh, you want to bump this down to 6 pounds of extract'.

...which is fine... if you want an OG of 1.045 or so... instead of 1.070+ for the style I was trying to brew... so I ended up with 'strong scotch ale' that had 1/2 the ABV (and maltiness) that it should have had.
 
Yesterday I go to my LHBS and well he serves draft beer, so I am sipping on a pint and its only him and I in the store. I dont usually frequent this store but I needed a lid for my fermenter.

So I start telling him that I am trying to duplicate a Bridgeport Blackstrap Stout. I tell him how I have heard horrible things about using mollases in beer. So he suggest that it will probably be okay as long as I retain some sweetness in the stout. So I say, so I should mash higher then? He says , well you wanna try to get as many fermentables as you can, so he tells me I should mash at around 146. Am I missing something here?
 
JesseRC said:
Yesterday I go to my LHBS and well he serves draft beer, so I am sipping on a pint and its only him and I in the store. I dont usually frequent this store but I needed a lid for my fermenter.
Click to expand...

Ya, Todd usually makes the experience pretty awkward. The place is cluttered, dirty, etc. I think his primary business is selling beer, not homebrew supplies. :D

JesseRC said:
So I start telling him that I am trying to duplicate a Bridgeport Blackstrap Stout. I tell him how I have heard horrible things about using mollases in beer. So he suggest that it will probably be okay as long as I retain some sweetness in the stout. So I say, so I should mash higher then? He says , well you wanna try to get as many fermentables as you can, so he tells me I should mash at around 146. Am I missing something here?
Click to expand...

98% of the molasses will completely ferment, so yes, you should mash higher to give it balance and go easy on the addition (too much is overpowering). But, 146 is the wrong direction, try 155+.
 
My LHBS is the small corner of a very large store that does a completely unrelated business as their primary business (a hot tub store, actually). Anyway, I have always been torn because while I want to support my LHBS (and I spend a fair amount of money every month), the prices are always too high and the advice I listen to him give is TERRIBLE most of the time. I know a lot more about brewing than this fellow, but I swear I have heard him give deliberately erroneous advice to move something off the shelves that isn't selling well.

I've heard this guy tell people there is no need to buy malt extract that corn sugar works just fine as a primary fermentable and you won't be able to tell the difference.

I've heard the guy say that plastic was far superior to glass as your fermentor--this on the day I noticed that he had far more Ale Pails laying around than usual.

I've heard the guy say the same thing as the poster above, that lagers and ales ferment at the same temperature.

etc.

So now I order everything online, usually in bulk, and I only visit the LHBS for emergency supplies--like when you break the damn hydrometer! I don't want to do that; I want to give the local shop my money. But if they aren't going to improve their knowledge, stock and prices and are going to give the used car salesman routine to all the newbies, I just can't justify giving them much of my hard earned $$

That's my two cents.....
 
lamarguy said:
98% of the molasses will completely ferment, so yes, you should mash higher to give it balance and go easy on the addition (too much is overpowering). But, 146 is the wrong direction, try 155+.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you as far as using molasses goes, but I think the LHBS owner did give good info. He just gave the wrong info.

If I'm looking for more fermentables out of my malt, I mash on the low side, between 146-148. If I'm looking for maltiness and less fermentables, I mash in the mid-high 150's. Now...that being said...his statement was correct, he just didn't figure in that molasses doesn't need help in conversion as grains go.
 

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