Bad News Brewery - Control Panel

I wouldn't scrap the PIDs, I'd just use the non-timer version. I suppose keeping the alarm relays is fine and using them just as high-temp alarms. It would be much simpler, and would maintain symmetry.

As for the wiring diagram, I know there's a full-size one somewhere in this thread, unless P-J un-linked it from his website. I have a full size one at work if you can't find it on here.

BadNewsBrewery said:

I wouldn't scrap the PIDs, I'd just use the non-timer version. I suppose keeping the alarm relays is fine and using them just as high-temp alarms. It would be much simpler, and would maintain symmetry.

As for the wiring diagram, I know there's a full-size one somewhere in this thread, unless P-J un-linked it from his website. I have a full size one at work if you can't find it on here.

Click to expand...

The diagram is still there. I've not taken anything down and will not do that...

It is located in post #20 of this thread (& now here):

P-J said:

You are welcome.

I just noticed in your parts layout that you are going to use a key switch for your mains power. I revised the diagram to show that. (With a new drawing name.) You show a lot of other switches on top you controller box but I don't have a clue what your intent is with them.

As always - Click on the image to see (and save) a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")




P-J

Click to expand...

And like the White Knight that he is, P-J swoops in and makes everything OK.

BadNewsBrewery said:

I wouldn't scrap the PIDs, I'd just use the non-timer version. I suppose keeping the alarm relays is fine and using them just as high-temp alarms. It would be much simpler, and would maintain symmetry.

As for the wiring diagram, I know there's a full-size one somewhere in this thread, unless P-J un-linked it from his website. I have a full size one at work if you can't find it on here.

Click to expand...

Oh no, you misunderstood me. I have EVERY intention of using PIDs, however I'm thinking that 3 SYL-2352 would be the way I'd go rather than the 2 2451. Is that what you meant about not having the timer?

waffle418 said:

Oh no, you misunderstood me. I have EVERY intention of using PIDs, however I'm thinking that 3 SYL-2352 would be the way I'd go rather than the 2 2451. Is that what you meant about not having the timer?

Click to expand...

Bingo! :rockin:

BadNewsBrewery said:

Bingo! :rockin:

Click to expand...

Nice! Now I know what I'll be spending all day at work doing.... filling in the parts list with links

what else is work good for?

waffle418 said:

Nice! Now I know what I'll be spending all day at work doing.... filling in the parts list with links

Click to expand...

You should post it back to the discussion when you're done - maybe it'll help someone else down the line. And don't hesitate to ask if you run into any hiccups.

theknub said:

what else is work good for?

Click to expand...

That's why I only post during the week - weekends are too busy for HBT!

BadNewsBrewery said:

You should post it back to the discussion when you're done - maybe it'll help someone else down the line. And don't hesitate to ask if you run into any hiccups.



That's why I only post during the week - weekends are too busy for HBT!

Click to expand...

Oh I plan on posting it back once I link it up, although, mine is going a little different... I have the electrician buddy coming over Thursday to game plan a subpanel in the garage with the wife's blessing!!! 100 amps should go a long way to me never leaving my garage again

waffle418 said:

Oh no, you misunderstood me. I have EVERY intention of using PIDs, however I'm thinking that 3 SYL-2352 would be the way I'd go rather than the 2 2451. Is that what you meant about not having the timer?

Click to expand...

I revised the drawing to show all SYL-2352 PIDs. I hope this helps some in your adventure.

As always - Click on the image to see (and save) a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



P-J

And P-J is still cranking out drawings...

brewmcq said:

And P-J is still cranking out drawings...

Click to expand...

+1 ... you think my office is going to start looking at me funny for printing off all these electrical drawings? (Btw... I work as an accountant at a Real Estate Company )

P-J said:

I revised the drawing to show all SYL-2352 PIDs. I hope this helps some in your adventure.

As always - Click on the image to see (and save) a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



P-J

Click to expand...

What's the point of the PID for the MLT? There's nothing being controlled by that PID...wouldn't a thermometer do the same thing? Or is the goal to hook one of the pumps up on a relay and circulate through a herms loop in the HLT, etc?

Carlscan26 said:

What's the point of the PID for the MLT? There's nothing being controlled by that PID...wouldn't a thermometer do the same thing? Or is the goal to hook one of the pumps up on a relay and circulate through a herms loop in the HLT, etc?

Click to expand...

I'll be using it as a sophisticated thermometer that sets off an alarm if temp falls below a certain degree.... so yes you're absolutely correct, a thermometer WOULD work, but I won't be watching the temp constantly and the PID will do it for me.

Carlscan26 said:

What's the point of the PID for the MLT? There's nothing being controlled by that PID...wouldn't a thermometer do the same thing? Or is the goal to hook one of the pumps up on a relay and circulate through a herms loop in the HLT, etc?

Click to expand...

It only acts as a thermometer. It doesn't control anything. I used a PID for symmetry.

Doesn't auber make some thermometers with alarms with the same DIN size?

Anyway, how are you going to maintain mash temps then? Manual recirculation control?

I'm not sure if they do or don't make similar sized / style thermometers. For me, the cost of the PID was relatively low and I enjoy knowing that it looks the exact same (outside and inside) as the others - easier to use, easier to wire, and easier to order vs. looking up additional parts.

When I mash, the HLT PID is set to my desired temperature (plus any offsets that I need to account for heatloss) and my pump is run non-stop. I may adjust the pump discharge valve to get the flow I want from time to time, but really there's no change. The wort pumps through the heat exchange coil in the HLT, thus heating the wort, and all is good.

-Kevin

Thanks for the explanation Kevin. I don't usually pay much attention to the wiring diagrams as building one if these isn't in my future yet. So I always assumed the MLT controller was being used to control the pump on/off.

Thanks!

I suppose you could do that, but you'd run into some issues. Primarily, you're changing two variables (Pump on/off and HLT element on/off) without the PIDs actually talking. So while one PID is trying to adjust the mash temperature by changing the pump run status, the other is trying to change the mash temperature by heating up the HLT. Odds are neither would actually work, the PIDs would never get good values during an auto-tune, and the whole thing would become hugely complicated and frustrating. Changing one variable at a time is the way to go.

BadNewsBrewery said:

I suppose you could do that, but you'd run into some issues. Primarily, you're changing two variables (Pump on/off and HLT element on/off) without the PIDs actually talking. So while one PID is trying to adjust the mash temperature by changing the pump run status, the other is trying to change the mash temperature by heating up the HLT. Odds are neither would actually work, the PIDs would never get good values during an auto-tune, and the whole thing would become hugely complicated and frustrating. Changing one variable at a time is the way to go.

Click to expand...

I could be wrong but that's what I thought the Morebeer system does albeit without PIDs.

I could see autotune having issues. I was thinking that essentially the HL PID would keep that water constant as the recirculation from the MLT pulls heat out if it. The MLT would adjust as needed. You wouldn't need to maintain the HLT at the mash temp + offset. You could put it at your sparge temp for example and mash out quickly without having to wait for the HLT to ramp up.

I've been mainly focused on rims style setups - just now looking into HEX method. Thanks for explaining it to me.

Is there a reason you used a 15A CB to power the pumps, relays and electronics? I noticed the 5A protection for the PID's, but wouldn't 10A instead of 15 be better? I think normal Chugger/March pumps draw less than 2A, guessing the total draw on that leg under 5, definitely under 10. Or is that just the same pic P-J uses in all his schematics?

If you can find a 10A single pole DIN breaker, then go for it. My source only had 15A. Looks like they now offer a 6A option, too. I bought my breakers from ebrewsupply.com - but really, the breaker is only protecting the wiring, so by going with a 15A breaker it allowed me to go down in wire size. I suppose a 10A would have worked, but there's no harm in going with a 15A.

-Kevin

I would really like to make my own schematic, but MS Paint makes me drink too much. What software does P-J use to draw his sweet plans? Anyone know? How about you Kevin? I have resorted to pen and paper, but I would prefer to make a digital version. Thanks guys.

That's a great question. I have no idea what P-J uses. I know he's compiled quite the cache of PIDs and terminals and other graphics to use, but whether he uses a specific program for doing diagrams (I checked a few out and they all confused me more than needed) or maybe he puts in the time on MS Paint or something else.

Me - I used P-J's diagram and modified it in MS Paint, and then he used his P-J magic to make it look better.

Pen and paper is better than nothing for a start, that's for sure!

Thanks for the quick response, and also for demonstrating that I can run my neutral through my contactor. I am going to try making a diagram in GIMP. Also, thanks for running your neutral through your contactor. I bought a 3 pole contactor because it was cheaper and just dont't like the look of that unused pole. I just wasn't sure running the neutral through it was legit.

I don't do it any more, because my 3 pole contactor was a POS and got sent back. There's no reason I can think of why running Neutral through the contactor would be an issue. Definitely don't run ground through it, you don't want to break your path to ground in case something goes south in the panel.

BadNewsBrewery said:

I don't do it any more, because my 3 pole contactor was a POS and got sent back. There's no reason I can think of why running Neutral through the contactor would be an issue. Definitely don't run ground through it, you don't want to break your path to ground in case something goes south in the panel.

Click to expand...

Is there really any advantage to it, assuming that the contactor is normally open for both hot leads where they enter the panel? Perhaps I'm missing something.

The only advantage for me is aesthetics... I needed a 60 amp contactor and they were mostly all designed for 3 phase. I knew it would suffice and that I could use only 2 poles, but I like the look of three 4AWG wires leading into it.

jeffmeh said:

Is there really any advantage to it, assuming that the contactor is normally open for both hot leads where they enter the panel? Perhaps I'm missing something.

Click to expand...

No advantage I can think of, other than the "hey, I have 3 terminals... why not use them all" mindset.

I am just about to start a build that looks like it will be based upon this thread.
Your process and troubleshooting have been very informative.
I appreciate the iterations that this thread has gone through. Did you ever post a link to the revised 2352 version with the safe start interlock included?
Also if there were any changes you would make what would they be?

Thanks and enjoy your beer!

decoleur said:

I am just about to start a build that looks like it will be based upon this thread.
Your process and troubleshooting have been very informative.
I appreciate the iterations that this thread has gone through. Did you ever post a link to the revised 2352 version with the safe start interlock included?
Also if there were any changes you would make what would they be?

Thanks and enjoy your beer!

Click to expand...

It was not posted but here it is:

It's revised to show all SYL-2352 PIDs.

As always - Click on the image to see (and save) a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



P-J

P-J and Kevin,

This is and has been an outstanding thread! This is just what I need.

Any guidance on the wire gauge to be used through out this build?

P-J, thanks for what you continue to contribute in this area. Many breweries were inspired and built off of your designs.

Next round is on me.

-Timur

decoleur
I've attached the wiring diagram I used. It is similar to the one P-J posted, but shows the actual relay in it. I imagine P-J's would perform in a similar way, thought I didn't double check it all that much.

Things I'd change - I wouldn't install the alarm silence push buttons. I probably wouldn't install the alarms either, or if I did, I'd only install one. And lastly, I'd use all the non-timer PIDs. I have never used the timer function, and frankly I've never really used the alarms either. The PIDs perform well and I'm involved in the whole brewing process so I don't need an alarm to let me know something's happening - I pay attention.

Other things I would have done different - I mounted my control panel to an adjustable arm on the ceiling - it wasn't built all that strong which I regret, and the wires leading to the heating elements and RTDs aren't long enough to allow for much adjustment.

All in all, I'm very happy with it.

Wire gauge - look at the various tables listed on the web and make sure you match your wire gauge / breaker size / expected amp draw of your devices.

-Kevin

P-J and Kevin,
This is fantastic, combined with Kevin's googledoc I am getting a very good idea if prices for this.
Based upon Kevin's input I will rethink the alarms. If I don't what are you using for switches? Is that momentary NC part of the alarm buzzrr or something else?

When I get started I will start a new build thread and back link here. This is great!

Cheers!

Glad to help - 95% of what I learned in building this was due to this forum, so I'm happy to pay it forward.

The momentary NC switches between each PID and buzzer is the cut-out. It's just there to break the circuit between the PID and the buzzer, so I don't have to listen to the buzzer screach at me as I adjust the PID values to change the alarm parameter. But it's maybe 1 time in 30 that I actually set any sort of alarm, the other times I just set the alarm value to 500* so I never have to hear it. For me and my process, they're totally useless clutter on the panel and were a waste of money. I see no value in using them, but recognize that others do, so to each their own.

-Kevin

The only time I regretted not having an alarm switch for each PID was when my HLT probe cord broke and I had turn off all the alarms to finish the brew day. The more I use my system the less I use alarms except for the timer, that's the great thing about PIDs, no need to pot watch except for the boil of course.

I've been dreaming electric dreams for almost a year now and when I ran across your great looking build, I was hooked... I finally started ordering the parts and pieces to make the switch. A major factor in the decision to get started was knowing that there were pioneers that had done the legwork necessary to design and perfect these systems. And on top of that, they (you) seem so happy to share the knowledge! Amazing.

My build is a 50a control for my 10 gallon e-herms using P-J's Bad News Brewery inspired "Auberin-wiring1-a11h-SYL-2352-5500w.jpg" posted here on May 4th, 2014. I'll replace the lighted buttons (4) with separate switches and lights (just because I like "throwing" switches). Any thoughts on whether I should use P-J's "power loop" safety start or figure out how to add in the DIN mount Magnecraft Power Relay he found? It looks like the relay would allow killing the power running into the box a bit closer to the key switch/contactor... or doesn't that really matter? Any Kevin experience or P-J magic on the safe start would be welcomed, and/or a full size version of the diagram showing the safe start posted here on 1/15/13 would be of great help.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack but I had to say thanks very much Kevin and P-J, specifically in this thread, for coming up with what I think will fit me to a tee and make my brew days even more pleasurable. You guys got me to pull the trigger and make the move to electric and I appreciate it.

cctopcat, I'm happy that my efforts in some way smoothed the way for you to start up your own E-Brewery.

Should be no issues using the existing diagram but replacing the lighted switches with lights & switches. You may even be able to find a lighted flip switch...

So I spent some time looking over P-J's "power loop" safe start and the one I used. Best I can tell, the only operational difference is that on the "Power Loop", if the breaker running the loop trips, then you loose the whole panel. On mine, if the breaker trips, the other components stay on. The upshot of the Power Loop is that you don't need additional equipment. Note that the diagram shown would have to be wired exactly as shown. I don't have a 'PID' switch because I can't imagine a possible scenario where I'd want the panel on and the PIDs off. If you got rid of the PID switch, the power loop idea wouldn't work anymore (as shown).

Not sure which diagram you wanted from January 15 2013, but if I find it I'll post it.

Congrats again on the plan to go forward. Post a link to your build thread when you put one together, and don't hesitate to post / PM any quetions you have.

-Kevin

Found the diagram you were looking at on Page 11 of this thread. Not sure I have the actual file anywhere - couldn't find it in my email, either. From what I can tell, it's basically a simplified version of what I showed in post 153, just using a different relay and not showing the loop that goes through all the NC terminals of the other switches.
-Kevin

Looking at P-J's "power loop", is my thinking correct that if the 15a breaker were flipped off or tripped after power up, with all switches off except the power switch, that there would still be power to that whole circuit? Maybe that would never happen?

I'll try to start a build thread as soon as I start making progress... packages arrive daily

Thanks for the feedback!

--tim